1001 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

What? Since when does content for girls count?!

It doesn't, girls are a myth.

[nightscrawl]

...and the mere existence of a few characters or themes that relate in any way to the actual world we live in is somehow too jarring a notion in a mature-themed game already full of themes that cover almost everything else under the sun.

This is one of the reasons I'm perplexed by the "after school special" remarks we see thrown around. My response is "so?" There is already plenty of other social commentary in the DA games -- the entire structure of the primary religion is a social commentary -- that I don't see why one additional instance of it matters to the DA franchise overall. This then makes one wonder if it is in fact the nature of this particular commentary -- in this case relating to homosexuality, choice, and the obvious allusion to real-world conversion therapy, that brings out certain unpleasant elements.

 

... "rammed down their throat" (an odd metaphor to select, if you ask me)

Ah Mr. Gaider, this is why so many of us will miss you.

[leadintea]

This is one of the reasons I'm perplexed by the "after school special" remarks we see thrown around. My response is "so?" There is already plenty of other social commentary in the DA games -- the entire structure of the primary religion is a social commentary -- that I don't see why one additional instance of it matters to the DA franchise overall. This then makes one wonder if it is in fact the nature of this particular commentary -- in this case relating to homosexuality, choice, and the obvious allusion to real-world conversion therapy, that brings out certain unpleasant elements.

 

I called it an "after school special" because as someone who's gay, I grew up watching a number of movies and television shows where the gay child-parental redemption story has been done and I didn't expect something so cliche from a Bioware series, much less from a Bioware companion, who are famed for being interesting and well-written characters. I found Dorian's story entirely predictable and cliche, and I knew exactly how the story would go (except for the whole blood magic bit) the minute Mother Giselle gave me Halward's note for Dorian. I honestly expected a bit more from Gaider, since I assume he's familiar with gay media and the typical stories that come out from it (no pun intended and also another type of overdone gay story), being gay and all, but I guess he wrote the story mainly for straight gamers who probably haven't been exposed to such a story and would think it a novel or interesting story. For me, personally, I wasn't impressed, but I guess I was let down more so because I had high hopes for the first gay Bioware companion than the writing being bad.

[David Gaider]

I called it an "after school special" because as someone who's gay, I grew up watching a number of movies and television shows where the gay child-parental redemption story has been done and I didn't expect something so cliche from a Bioware series, much less from a Bioware companion, who are famed for being interesting and well-written characters. I found Dorian's story entirely predictable and cliche, and I knew exactly how the story would go (except for the whole blood magic bit) the minute Mother Giselle gave me Halward's note for Dorian. I honestly expected a bit more from Gaider, since I assume he's familiar with gay media and the typical stories that come out from it (no pun intended and also another type of overdone gay story), being gay and all, but I guess he wrote the story mainly for straight gamers who probably haven't been exposed to such a story and would think it a novel or interesting story. For me, personally, I wasn't impressed, but I guess I was let down more so because I had high hopes for the first gay Bioware companion than the writing being bad.

 

It is fair for you to interpret the plot however you like, I won't argue with that.

 

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion. To me, that involves conflicts which are presented in a simplistic manner and with an overly-pat resolution. Perhaps you feel that's the case, but then I'd be curious if it wasn't just the plot's basic nature in that it involves parental conflict which was the source of your issue.

 

Beyond that, I'll just say that I've had many gay people (men and women) contact me to say they were deeply moved by the plot -- which either means it's not something they've seen before (not in a video game, certainly) or that they didn't interpret it as you did. Which is not to say they're right and you're wrong, but your implication that anyone gay would feel as you do is just not the case.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It is fair for you to interpret the plot however you like, I won't argue with that.

 

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion. To me, that involves conflicts which are presented in a simplistic manner and with an overly-pat resolution. Perhaps you feel that's the case, but then I'd be curious if it wasn't just the plot's basic nature in that it involves parental conflict which was the source of your issue.

 

Beyond that, I'll just say that I've had many gay people (men and women) contact me to say they were deeply moved by the plot -- which either means it's not something they've seen before (not in a video game, certainly) or that they didn't interpret it as you did. Which is not to say they're right and you're wrong, but your implication that anyone gay would feel as you do is just not the case.

That it wasn't resolved neatly is why I think it works so well.  If the plot were about that, it would have had a more clear resolution.  Since it doesn't, it becomes merely a fact about Dorian.

 

Expertly done, David.

[Mihura]

I found this thread hilarious, also Ironic that bunch of dudes which have naked mans in their avatar will ****** so much about this...

 

http://forum.bodybui...php?t=165423231

 

 

As for the plot with Dorian, I think it was really well done.

Dorian is a young man that lived in luxury and had to leave it behind because he was not going to pretend to be accepted. The only gay teen drama I know of, is the people dying in the end because of their parents or something about lover affairs, or even discovering the gay feels, which none are in DA:I.
Actually he has one of the best romances in DA:I especially because of his background and let us not forget that Dorian is not perfect at all, he is rather apologetic when it comes to slavery, never saw that ever in any game or media. Most gay story are about some perfect people getting together or the extremely disturbed opposite where again everyone dies. 

[Toasted Llama]

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion.

Seeing you mention that Halward's issue is Dorian allowing his preference to take precedence over his duty, I see a similarity with Alexius. Having just finished In Hushed Whispers again, I've got to ask; is Alexius "obsession" over his son's health foreshadowing for Halward Pavus' "obsession"? Because if Felix dies before he has a child, he won't be able to preserve the family line, similarly how Dorian's father is scared that Dorian won't have a child to preserve the family line either.

[leadintea]

It is fair for you to interpret the plot however you like, I won't argue with that.

 

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion. To me, that involves conflicts which are presented in a simplistic manner and with an overly-pat resolution. Perhaps you feel that's the case, but then I'd be curious if it wasn't just the plot's basic nature in that it involves parental conflict which was the source of your issue.

 

Beyond that, I'll just say that I've had many gay people (men and women) contact me to say they were deeply moved by the plot -- which either means it's not something they've seen before (not in a video game, certainly) or that they didn't interpret it as you did. Which is not to say they're right and you're wrong, but your implication that anyone gay would feel as you do is just not the case.

 

Believe you me, I'm well aware of what Dorian's story's all about and I pretty much side with his father, though that's a discussion for another day. That said, even though Halward's beef wasn't with Dorian's sexuality, the fact that Dorian was gay and had that play a part in his refusal to get married enough to have his father want to change it with blood magic, as well as the way the quest played out felt way too similar to many gay redemption stories. I guess it's why so many gay people also felt moved by the plot even though it wasn't a story about sexuality yet were still able to relate Dorian's experience to theirs.

[nightscrawl]

Seeing you mention that Halward's issue is Dorian allowing his preference to take precedence over his duty, I see a similarity with Alexius. Having just finished In Hushed Whispers again, I've got to ask; is Alexius "obsession" over his son's health foreshadowing for Halward Pavus' "obsession"? Because if Felix dies before he has a child, he won't be able to preserve the family line, similarly how Dorian's father is scared that Dorian won't have a child to preserve the family line either.

WoT Vol. 2 spoiler...

Spoiler

No. Alexius just loves Felix for who he is -- a fact I thought was clear in the game itself. In WoT it's revealed that Felix has little magical talent, that Alexius has never really cared for that aspect of Tevinter, and that he "married his sweetheart." I think it's safe to say that the Alexius family is completely contrary to the Pavus family in that regard.

[BansheeOwnage]

It is fair for you to interpret the plot however you like, I won't argue with that.

 

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion. To me, that involves conflicts which are presented in a simplistic manner and with an overly-pat resolution. Perhaps you feel that's the case, but then I'd be curious if it wasn't just the plot's basic nature in that it involves parental conflict which was the source of your issue.

 

Beyond that, I'll just say that I've had many gay people (men and women) contact me to say they were deeply moved by the plot -- which either means it's not something they've seen before (not in a video game, certainly) or that they didn't interpret it as you did. Which is not to say they're right and you're wrong, but your implication that anyone gay would feel as you do is just not the case.

Very well said. As feedback, however, I would have appreciated the opportunity to relate to Dorian as my character during or after the quest. I don't know if that feedback will ever influence anything, but I thought I might as well say it.

[nightscrawl]

Very well said. As feedback, however, I would have appreciated the opportunity to relate to Dorian as my character during or after the quest. I don't know if that feedback will ever influence anything, but I thought I might as well say it.

If you have NOT previously flirted (important!) with Dorian you have the opportunity to "come out" during the tavern scene. However, this doesn't really fulfill your request either since it's treated in a (mostly) humorous way**, the line IS a icon and is considered a flirt (kind of a bummer if you have your eye on Bull, or just aren't overly flirty), and I believe is only open to the male Inquisitor.

 

I think you do make an interesting point though. One of the frequent posters over in the Dorian thread RPs a gay Dalish elf who has issues with that, so I think for someone like him it would have been an interesting opportunity to explore some more roleplay aspects. Then again, they can't give a response for everything, and I think there is a fine line to walk between providing RP opportunity and enough neutral responses that will satisfy the majority of players, both romance and non-romance.

 

 

** BUT an additional Dorian/Halward confrontation is a great bonus, since Halward (in his most dickish line in the whole thing) basically accuses Dorian of joining the Inquisition just to get in the Inquisitor's pants, which Dorian is supremely pissed off by (on behalf of the Inquisitor). However, I will say that this line from Halward flows well with the WoT information, even though his reading of Dorian is completely wrong.

[DuskWanderer]

I called it an "after school special" because as someone who's gay, I grew up watching a number of movies and television shows where the gay child-parental redemption story has been done and I didn't expect something so cliche from a Bioware series, much less from a Bioware companion, who are famed for being interesting and well-written characters. I found Dorian's story entirely predictable and cliche, and I knew exactly how the story would go (except for the whole blood magic bit) the minute Mother Giselle gave me Halward's note for Dorian. I honestly expected a bit more from Gaider, since I assume he's familiar with gay media and the typical stories that come out from it (no pun intended and also another type of overdone gay story), being gay and all, but I guess he wrote the story mainly for straight gamers who probably haven't been exposed to such a story and would think it a novel or interesting story. For me, personally, I wasn't impressed, but I guess I was let down more so because I had high hopes for the first gay Bioware companion than the writing being bad.

 

Very similar to how I felt, particularly about BioWARE companions. I'm still so fond of the quirky, interesting, and sometimes downright hilarious people we get. As a writer myself, it's inspiration. 

 

But I definitely felt as though the story was predictable. I didn't expect anything from "the first gay companion" simply because I've always felt there's more to a person than who you sleep with. Sex is all well and good, but I get out of bed and do my job, too. While directly using blood magic was mythos-appropriate, I saw it just had the same "pray away the gay" feel I'd seen in other after-school specials. 

 

I do expect more from BioWARE characters. Nuance of personality in characters is often the gem in their crown. When I don't get it, it's disappointing.

[nightscrawl]

Very similar to how I felt, particularly about BioWARE companions. I'm still so fond of the quirky, interesting, and sometimes downright hilarious people we get. As a writer myself, it's inspiration. 
 
But I definitely felt as though the story was predictable. I didn't expect anything from "the first gay companion" simply because I've always felt there's more to a person than who you sleep with. Sex is all well and good, but I get out of bed and do my job, too. While directly using blood magic was mythos-appropriate, I saw it just had the same "pray away the gay" feel I'd seen in other after-school specials. 
 
I do expect more from BioWARE characters. Nuance of personality in characters is often the gem in their crown. When I don't get it, it's disappointing.

I think you get a more complete picture of Dorian's personality if you do the romance. The full gamut of ALL of the party banter also helps tremendously. Even a non-romance best friend relationship doesn't really get a complete picture of some of his insecurities (related to relationships, both paternal and romantic [or lack of them]) and pain. If you allow Bull and Dorian to hook up Bull refers to Dorian as a "sweet guy." IMO this description isn't really in line with how he presents himself most of the time (overly confident, vain, arrogant). This is intentional though; Dorian builds walls around himself and only a few get to see all there is behind them.

Even ignoring the whole sexuality aspect, what bothers me most about some of the commentary revolving around Dorian is that he seems to be distilled down to (1) his most obvious personality traits, and (2) the content of his personal quest. I think even his investigative dialog revolving around Tevinter shows him to be more than that.

[Lady Artifice]

It is fair for you to interpret the plot however you like, I won't argue with that.

 

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion. To me, that involves conflicts which are presented in a simplistic manner and with an overly-pat resolution. Perhaps you feel that's the case, but then I'd be curious if it wasn't just the plot's basic nature in that it involves parental conflict which was the source of your issue.

 

Beyond that, I'll just say that I've had many gay people (men and women) contact me to say they were deeply moved by the plot -- which either means it's not something they've seen before (not in a video game, certainly) or that they didn't interpret it as you did. Which is not to say they're right and you're wrong, but your implication that anyone gay would feel as you do is just not the case.

 

The thing I was most grateful for, was having more than one way that the PC could express support for Dorian after the return to Skyhold. 

 

I like both the most diplomatic option and the flirt option (on either gender, whether it's a male Inquisitor spurring on the romance or the female suggesting that they continue to flirt just for the sake of how engaging it is).

[Toasted Llama]

WoT Vol. 2 spoiler...

Spoiler

No. Alexius just loves Felix for who he is -- a fact I thought was clear in the game itself. In WoT it's revealed that Felix has little magical talent, that Alexius has never really cared for that aspect of Tevinter, and that he "married his sweetheart." I think it's safe to say that the Alexius family is completely contrary to the Pavus family in that regard.

*grumble grumble* Someone remind me why I haven't ordered WoT 2 yet? I don't even have WoT 1, yet I dare consider myself a fan of Dragon Age, oh the heresy!

 

Anyway, missed opportunity there, could've helped push Dorian's quest away from the typical (and apparently much disliked?) "accepting homosexuality" to "nobles from Tevinters are just a bunch of d*cks".

[Ariella]

*grumble grumble* Someone remind me why I haven't ordered WoT 2 yet? I don't even have WoT 1, yet I dare consider myself a fan of Dragon Age, oh the heresy!
 
Anyway, missed opportunity there, could've helped push Dorian's quest away from the typical (and apparently much disliked?) "accepting homosexuality" to "nobles from Tevinters are just a bunch of d*cks".

If you have a nook, or probably a kindle, WoT 1 is available.

And I never got that it was about being gay. My take away was the fact that Dorian refused to conform. Being gay exasperated the situation, the 'not wanting to live my life screaming on the inside', but it was about being Dorian.

[DirkJake]

 

Beyond that, I'll just say that I've had many gay people (men and women) contact me to say they were deeply moved by the plot -- which either means it's not something they've seen before (not in a video game, certainly) or that they didn't interpret it as you did. Which is not to say they're right and you're wrong, but your implication that anyone gay would feel as you do is just not the case.

 

I am one of those gay people who are moved by the plot (or more accurately I had a strong urge to punch his dad). 

 

I am sure the trope where being gay and family duty are in conflict or "pray the gay away" has been used a lot of times in media, but that does not necessarily mean that exploring the trope and incorporating it into a fictional world would make a boring story.

 

In DAI, I find the plot to be well written and interesting. I like how his conflict was foreshadowed when I talked to him in Haven. I like how the conflict was brought up and how the confrontation with his father went. I like the fact that I had a choice to facilitate their reconciliation. I like how I can console him after the quest (kiss kiss). The conversations between Cole and Dorian regarding his father are really poignant. 

[BansheeOwnage]

If you have NOT previously flirted (important!) with Dorian you have the opportunity to "come out" during the tavern scene. However, this doesn't really fulfill your request either since it's treated in a (mostly) humorous way**, the line IS a icon and is considered a flirt (kind of a bummer if you have your eye on Bull, or just aren't overly flirty), and I believe is only open to the male Inquisitor.

Yeah, from what I've heard it's only available to the male Inquisitor, which is a shame. I've also heard it's basically "So what, I've slept with men too." Now, I don't know if that's the line, but if it is, that's also a shame. You shouldn't have to have slept with anyone to say that. If that's not the line, ignore this part.

 

I hoped for an option to relate to him about it after you got back to Skyhold. You brought up the difficulty of having dialogue options that were neutral yet informative, so here are my ideas assuming you relate to Dorian and he asks about your family for a comparison to his (Trevelyan used as an example):

 

1. My family doesn't know.

2. My family supports me.

3. I'm the family's black sheep; they aren't happy. (No wonder you were sent to the Conclave )

4. My family doesn't mind, but I have a feeling that's only because I'm their youngest. If I was their only heir like you, I might be in a similar situation.

 

How does that sound for a draft?

[9TailsFox]

Believe you me, I'm well aware of what Dorian's story's all about and I pretty much side with his father, though that's a discussion for another day. That said, even though Halward's beef wasn't with Dorian's sexuality, the fact that Dorian was gay and had that play a part in his refusal to get married enough to have his father want to change it with blood magic, as well as the way the quest played out felt way too similar to many gay redemption stories. I guess it's why so many gay people also felt moved by the plot even though it wasn't a story about sexuality yet were still able to relate Dorian's experience to theirs.

I agree Dorian quest is about family legacy/arranged marriage no Dorian gay. But Dorian disagree.

He say: I prefer company of the man.

He don't say: My father wants me to marry someone I don't love.

[Ariella]

I agree Dorian quest is about family legacy/arranged marriage no Dorian gay. But Dorian disagree.
He say: I prefer company of the man.
He don't say: My father wants me to marry someone I don't love.

Thing is you already know that Dorian doesn't like the idea of an arranged marriage.

'I rejected their idyllic plan...' Etc.

And I get the feeling Halward just doesn't want to discuss a rather private thing in front of a stranger. Especially when it's going to bring up the real point of daddy being a hypocrite and using blood magic to bring Dorian in line. I sure as hell wouldn' t leave a friend with someone who has tried that.

'It's about you. You and your ******* legacy' not ' you not accepting me.'

[9TailsFox]

Thing is you already know that Dorian doesn't like the idea of an arranged marriage.

'I rejected their idyllic plan...' Etc.

And I get the feeling Halward just doesn't want to discuss a rather private thing in front of a stranger. Especially when it's going to bring up the real point of daddy being a hypocrite and using blood magic to bring Dorian in line. I sure as hell wouldn' t leave a friend with someone who has tried that.

'It's about you. You and your ******* legacy' not ' you not accepting me.'

You right I forget that line it was long I played.

[DanteYoda]

I cannot see Sera with a man in a romantic relationship at all.

Only because you know Sera was homosexual as the writers designed, if she'd been Straight or Bi you'd feel otherwise...

 

Honestly i don't get the Bioware created it this way SO IT MUST FOREVER BE THIS WAY!!!!

 

Its a game, its not a way of life for others..

[leadintea]

The thing I was most grateful for, was having more than one way that the PC could express support for Dorian after the return to Skyhold. 

 

I like both the most diplomatic option and the flirt option (on either gender, whether it's a male Inquisitor spurring on the romance or the female suggesting that they continue to flirt just for the sake of how engaging it is).

 

Personally, I thought the entire thing was one sided. I mean, it's nice that we can support Dorian, but why don't we get an option to criticize him for abandoning his duties? I mean, we're talking about his arranged marriage and his duty to his family, not about his sexuality so it's not like we're being homophobic or bigoted. We're able to force Alistair and Sebastian to become king despite them not wanting to and we get many people having thoughtful discussions about how they influenced those characters, so why can't we do the same with Dorian?

[DanteYoda]

Krem actually had exactly zero lines about his sexuality.

To this day i still feel Krem is actually a cross dresser more than a Transexual, i know others feel different and Bioware made Krem a transexual, but as its displayed in game to me seems far more cross dresser...

 

I found this thread hilarious, also Ironic that bunch of dudes which have naked mans in their avatar will ****** so much about this...

 

http://forum.bodybui...php?t=165423231

The fact its on a "Bodybuilding" Forum didn't occur to you at all?

 

Like saying why are so many Avatars in Biowares forum all Dragon Age and Mass Effect...

[BSpud]

4. My family doesn't mind, but I have a feeling that's only because I'm their youngest. If I was their only heir like you, I might be in a similar situation.

 

 

 

This would've been perfect for my gay female Inq and what was going through my head at the time.