1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

To this day i still feel Krem is actually a cross dresser more than a Transexual, i know others feel different and Bioware made Krem a transexual, but as its displayed in game to me seems far more cross dresser...
 

The fact its on a "Bodybuilding" Forum didn't occur to you at all?
 
Like saying why are so many Avatars in Biowares forum all Dragon Age and Mass Effect...

Krem identifies as male, which seperates him from being a crossdresser. There's a bit where he and Bull discuss it, I think during the drinking scene, and Bull mentions that the Qun is accepting of such things.

It's either something of a ret con or Sten's objection to the Warden being a warrior is based on her identifying as female, but there are warriors who are geneticly, for want of a better term, but who identify or are considered male who are part of the Antaam.

[vertigomez]

Personally, I thought the entire thing was one sided. I mean, it's nice that we can support Dorian, but why don't we get an option to criticize him for abandoning his duties? I mean, we're talking about his arranged marriage and his duty to his family, not about his sexuality so it's not like we're being homophobic or bigoted. We're able to force Alistair and Sebastian to become king despite them not wanting to and we get many people having thoughtful discussions about how they influenced those characters, so why can't we do the same with Dorian?

[disgusted noise]

[Seraphim24]

The fact that Dorian's plot is neither about his father accepting his homosexuality (his father's issue is that Dorian allows his preferences to take precedence over his duty, not that he has those preferences to begin with) and does not end with the conflict neatly resolved belies it being an "after school special" -- at least, in my opinion.

 

I am inclined to ask though... what is Dorian's plot truly about then? I think I read somewhere it was about the refusal of Tevinter society to discuss matters of sex and sexuality generally, not so much their animus toward any particular kind of practice and so on....

 

As far as that goes (if I interpreted that right), generally speaking, if someone is outspoken against something (lets say, homosexuality, in this instance), that generally means they've harbored those thoughts and are not being forthright about them. That's one of those things that happens to be true. However, plenty of people are just as boring as their outward appearance suggests. Some have a lot more interests than sex with the same gender and never talk about it really.

 

As far as people's dissatisfaction (whoever was dissatisfied) with the story generally, I can't help but think there's this certain feeling in not necessarily just LGBT but this kind of "needing father's approval" (or even society's approval). If Dorian was truly a Tony Stark kind of figure I would of expected him to kind of like build a mini army and sort of take Tevinter society by the throat and force them to spill their dirty secrets. Gay, straight otherwise (heck, lets say Dorian's conflict was about his highly unusual or otherwise iconoclastic girlfriend) I think people would still feel this kind of... slight disappointment perhaps, regardless of the exact issue, that he doesn't have this "screw the man" sort of thing you see in mega iconic characters like Han Solo or something (weird comparison maybe, sorry).

 

The feeling is disconnect with parents is a common theme, not just for homosexuality but all kinds of things. My parents for example can't stand all kinds of things about me, but I don't personally seek a kind of ultimate reconciliation, I just try and find the common ground and try and do the best thing possible there.

 

Anyway, I think, matters of sex and sexuality aside, there are things that people might not like about it that I can understand. There are also things that people like about it that I can understand.

[FemShem]

There is no homonormative world outside of fiction.

How gay,bi, and trans characters make a difference to people more so than you will ever consider if you live in a first world country...

Eh-hem.

You will notice all over Bioware threads different people will qualify certain statements where DA might (have been) banned, edited, or modified in their country.

There are countries in the world where people can be killed for being gay.  I've lived and worked in the NE and West Coast...not too homophobic there (on the surface).  Having moved back to Texas, the same gamer, sci-fi, comicon, burning man going friends that I went to school with are practically ready to set fire to the state before allowing the homos in here.  I'm openly gay, and I get the..."Oh, we didn't mean you Ange!" (we love to compartmentalize racism, misogymy, and homophobia here).
That being said...you know what we can talk about before the knives, bottles, and guns come out?

Dragon Age.

Seriously.

Thedas is a neutral common ground.

When I am surrounded by gun toting homophobes (some of which I'm related to, or related to by my gay marriage--weirder) these people are so angry they want to beat things, anythings, including and up to methings...turn the subject to Thedas, and we can have a conversation about Dorian, Sera, Iron Bull whatever.

Now do they ALL play Dragon age.  Of course not.  Only a couple, but those couple of guys, while swilling their beer and leaning against a tractor (I'm so not kidding), go from shouting themselves purple to talking about Dorian and is it okay to change people through blood magic.  These topics that are usually filled with with vitriolic bile, but now can be discussed, because it's a fun video game...and did you kill a high dragon in insane.

I've seen it happen twice in my life where we went from crazed dangerous rage, to rationally talking about a Bioware game.  

People can thump their chests all they like.  Making Thedas neutral ground is not about pleasing and placating SJWs (they will never be happy if they are true to their acronym), it's giving people a neutral frame of reference to talk about deeper issues albeit religion and its role in life, sexual orientation, the ramification of politics, and (oh yeah) the little people.

Good writing helps people to discuss things and think about things in a forum where it's okay to question things.

How is that not an amazing thing?

[Bfler]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

[leadintea]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games without romances, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion, instead of a boring fetch quest.

 

Yup. Eder and Aloth are amongst my most favorite characters ever in a video game and I didn't need to bed them in order to like them.

[Chiramu]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

 

Bioware considers the romance option to be a pivotal part in what makes a Bioware RPG. I personally like the option, although when I started playing Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR I had no idea how to romance anyone XD(I was young lol). 

 

I think now they are trying to make the characters stand out over making a story first. The fact that they have segmented the writing means that the whole thing, despite all the reading over, will be broken. The writers of Dragon Age need to work together more, sit with each other more, talk with each other about their characters and the story. Get everyone up to date with plans for the overall story etc. Bioware overall needs more employees to be talking with each other. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

 

Considering that, romance asides, PoE and Dragon Age have basically the same amount of content for companions (one major quest for each, save maybe Durance who has more but then so do Solas and Cassandra for instance), I don't see how that argument holds much water. Besides, romances can very much add great plotlines to a game; Solas becomes an even deeper and more interesting character if romanced, for instance, so does Sera. Romance and good plotlines are in no way mutually exclusive.

[CronoDragoon]

The feeling is disconnect with parents is a common theme, not just for homosexuality but all kinds of things. My parents for example can't stand all kinds of things about me, but I don't personally seek a kind of ultimate reconciliation, I just try and find the common ground and try and do the best thing possible there.
 
Anyway, I think, matters of sex and sexuality aside, there are things that people might not like about it that I can understand. There are also things that people like about it that I can understand.

 
Personally, I feel the multiple paths to completion is relevant for Dorian here. In my first playthrough, Dorian and I just left. I felt it wasn't my place to recommend anything about reconciling. No reconcilation happened. In my second, Dorian and his father at least had a private talk - more than I think either expected all considering. So I think what one reads into in terms of the parental relationship can be expressed through dialogue.
 

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

It depends on the character. Some characters don't benefit from a romance arc, some do. Personally, I feel the comments by Obsidian regarding romance ("it's more than just ******") are more than a bit of a cop-out. It's trying to disguise an inability to write romance as romance not being worth writing. And that's perfectly fine, as non-romance character arcs are equally as good. I'm glad we have both Obsidian and BioWare writing characters, whatever the case.

[Malthier]

As far as people's dissatisfaction (whoever was dissatisfied) with the story generally, I can't help but think there's this certain feeling in not necessarily just LGBT but this kind of "needing father's approval" (or even society's approval). If Dorian was truly a Tony Stark kind of figure I would of expected him to kind of like build a mini army and sort of take Tevinter society by the throat and force them to spill their dirty secrets. Gay, straight otherwise (heck, lets say Dorian's conflict was about his highly unusual or otherwise iconoclastic girlfriend) I think people would still feel this kind of... slight disappointment perhaps, regardless of the exact issue, that he doesn't have this "screw the man" sort of thing you see in mega iconic characters like Han Solo or something (weird comparison maybe, sorry).

 

It sounds like just wanting the character to be a completely different one, without factoring in what kind of person he's written to be. 

[BansheeOwnage]

To this day i still feel Krem is actually a cross dresser more than a Transexual, i know others feel different and Bioware made Krem a transexual, but as its displayed in game to me seems far more cross dresser...

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that Thedas doesn't have hormone therapy... There's only so much he can do.

 

This would've been perfect for my gay female Inq and what was going through my head at the time.

Glad you liked my idea!

[In Exile]

This is my much bigger complaint

It came across as a way to avoid the implications of the Qunari's strict "give zero sh*ts about individual thought" as applied to sexuality, becuase otherwise it might offend people, and Maker forbid a BioWare game be offensive in some way

But that's insane. They repeatedly talk about torturing dissenters. We have a whole conversation from the IB on this point. That people are so obsessed with certain kinds of bigotry doesn't mean Bioware has changed their setting at all.

[AresKeith]

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that Thedas doesn't have hormone therapy... There's only so much he can do.

 

Unless they have a magic potion

[Lady Artifice]

Personally, I thought the entire thing was one sided. I mean, it's nice that we can support Dorian, but why don't we get an option to criticize him for abandoning his duties? I mean, we're talking about his arranged marriage and his duty to his family, not about his sexuality so it's not like we're being homophobic or bigoted. We're able to force Alistair and Sebastian to become king despite them not wanting to and we get many people having thoughtful discussions about how they influenced those characters, so why can't we do the same with Dorian?

 

There's always been a few routes that you can't take when dealing with characters in Bioware games. 

 

As I recall, When you were the Warden, you also couldn't precisely tell Leliana off for failing Marjolaine by interfering with her plans, or Morrigan off for not sucking it up and letting Flemeth take possession of her (though you can imply a lack of concern). You couldn't join Goldanna in berating Alistair when you visited her. As the Inquisitor, You don't have the option to let Cole take revenge on the former templar who accidentally left him to die, or fire a hardened Leliana from the position of spymaster for potentially disobeying your orders later in the game, or call Cullen a monster for his former attitude toward mages. You can't rant at any of your advisors when their war table suggestions don't work out for the best.

 

There's always limits, because they can't write in every single possible reaction that a person might have, and they do have to assume a few minor things for your character. It seems to me that in this case, they're assuming that you'd rather keep the help of the powerful mage you accepted assistance from, rather than saying that essentially urges him to leave and stop helping you, or saying that he shouldn't be here helping you in the first place. The game also seems to assume that you've been developing a bond with that character, possibly because the appearance of his personal quest is (I believe) approval based?

[Kulyok]

Speaking of romance, I'm kind of surprised that this interview(and it's like the half or one third of the whole Dragon Age Inquisition interview) is focused on Krem and Dorian only. I mean, there's Cassandra, there's Morrigan, and there're certainly Cullen, Solas and other romance interests(And Cassandra and Morrigan were written by the same author). If the interview is about romance(and not, say, plot and Corypheus and future plans for DA), it's weird how it focuses on one minor character, and then - on one minor companion quest. I do miss some meat on other romances. (Particularly why oh why that beautiful and engaging Cassandra romance had to end in cringeworthy poetry. I know some people like poetry, even if it's no Brodsky, but it's such a hit-and-miss choice that it can break the romance entirely!)

[Panda]

I think the Dorian's personal quest is ultimately about him having conflict with his parent who has different worldviews than Dorian has and who wants to change him because of that instead of accepting that Dorian is different or maybe even instead of re-evaluation his own worldviews that go hand in hand with Tevinters traditions.

 

Dorian being gay is one aspect of it, but it's not all about him being gay. It's about Dorian not wanting to get married without love (he resents his parents marriage, because they hate each other and married each other just to produce perfect mage child) and Dorian not wanting to follow Tevinter traditions.

 

I think Dorian's quest is pretty relatable even if you aren't gay, because it's about conflict with your parents who has different views of world than you and who wants you to change instead of accepting you as you are.

[BansheeOwnage]

Unless they have a magic potion

Well, you can bring up changing more with magic, if that's even possible. Krem is happy enough as he is though, and that's his right.

[Broganisity]

To this day I still do not care.

Now, I'd care if the central concept behind the character was their sexual whatevers, but only because the concept of a character being included just for them to be 'The Token 'X' of the Story' or just so that the story is 'inclusive!' bothers me immensely from a writing perspective.

[FemShem]

So Sera is gay in any play through because her character is consistent, but what about say, Isabela in DA2or Josie in DA:I?  

I think the F/Hawke Isabela romance is a great one whether friendship or rivalry.

So if F/Hawke or F/Inq romances Isabela/Merrill or Josie (respectively) they are gay/bi (depending on the players preference for that play through).

That being said, If the player plays a F/Inq Josie romance and considers both characters only lesbian does that aspect follow suit with the duel or it happenstance that Josie is engaged to a man?

What is the driving force behind it?  The fact that the romance is adaptable, or that it is deadset a certain way given the players mentality on any given play through?

Am I making sense?

 

[FiveThreeTen]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

I certainly wouldn't mind expanding on non-related romance content for companions.

Some DAI companions content did felt very lacking in some areas for me. But I have seen the same complaints from people who DID romance someone so I don't necessarily blame romance related stuff as the sole cause of it.

I don't see Bioware excluding romances anytime soon because it's obviously a feature the the fanbase expects now. And content they want to produce.

 

In my own biased perspective, I don't think we need 8 romances options each game though. Adding so many options isn't a guarantee I will like one.

 

Considering that, romance asides, PoE and Dragon Age have basically the same amount of content for companions (one major quest for each, save maybe Durance who has more but then so do Solas and Cassandra for instance), I don't see how that argument holds much water. Besides, romances can very much add great plotlines to a game; Solas becomes an even deeper and more interesting character if romanced, for instance, so does Sera. Romance and good plotlines are in no way mutually exclusive.

I don't know if we can really compare PoE and DAO in that regard. If only because PoE companions and NPCs aren't always voiced, contrary to DA. So resources are likely managed differently. And it's understandably easier to add content via written text.

IDK, it did felt that I had more conversations with my companions in PoE than in Inquisition.

[slimgrin]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

 

That's ridiculous. As much as I disagree on how Bioware depicts romance now, why in the hell would you expect an artistic medium to exclude such an integral part of adult life? It's like saying well sh*t, I get my jimmies rustled by politics so I don't want to see that stuff in books anymore.

[KaiserShep]

In my opinion, they should exclude the romance stuff from the game and concentrate on some good stories. In other games, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, the followers are far more believable and interesting without romances. One less romance could be one good side quest chain linked to a companion.

 

I don't see how one affects the other in a meaningful way. A companion is not more believable or interesting because the writers chose to exclude romance. The character would be more engaging in spite of it, and given how little of the game is actually occupied by romantic content, it's not as if excluding one would leave so much room for the other.

[Panda]

I don't see how one affects the other in a meaningful way. A companion is not more believable or interesting because the writers chose to exclude romance. The character would be more engaging in spite of it, and given how little of the game is actually occupied by romantic content, it's not as if excluding one would leave so much room for the other.

 

Well taking accord how you usually can't even know whole story of your companion without romancing them in BW's games.. I'd say that romance does make companions more intresting

[Laughing_Man]

How gay,bi, and trans characters make a difference to people more so than you will ever consider if you live in a first world country...

 

*snip*

People can thump their chests all they like.  Making Thedas neutral ground is not about pleasing and placating SJWs (they will never be happy if they are true to their acronym), it's giving people a neutral frame of reference to talk about deeper issues albeit religion and its role in life, sexual orientation, the ramification of politics, and (oh yeah) the little people.

Good writing helps people to discuss things and think about things in a forum where it's okay to question things.

How is that not an amazing thing?

 

I'm happy for you, I truly am.

 

I have nothing against seamless integration of LGBT into a good story, but I don't think it's the job of a video game and an RPG at that, to preach about "social justice" or to become some kind of a disconnected bastion of tolerance, equality, diversity, rainbows and unicorns.

 

Why? Because it destroys any kind of suspension of disbelief for reasons that have nothing to do with the story itself or any in-world elements.

(which is why people like to reffer to it as "pandering")

 

An example would be the sudden Qunari paradigm shift, that was seemingly tailor-made to accommodate Krem. (I actually like his character)

 

I have nothing against gays and their rights, but I have everything against preachiness and condescension.

[9TailsFox]

I'm happy for you, I truly am.

 

I have nothing against seamless integration of LGBT into a good story, but I don't think it's the job of a video game and an RPG at that, to preach about "social justice" or to become some kind of a disconnected bastion of tolerance, equality, diversity, rainbows and unicorns.

 

Why? Because it destroys any kind of suspension of disbelief for reasons that have nothing to do with the story itself or any in-world elements.

(which is why people like to reffer to it as "pandering")

 

An example would be the sudden Qunari paradigm shift, that was seemingly tailor-made to accommodate Krem. (I actually like his character)

 

I have nothing against gays and their rights, but I have everything against preachiness and condescension.

Well said. What's next, everything Dorian said about slave friendly Teviter is true.