1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

That's ridiculous. As much as I disagree on how Bioware depicts romance now, why in the hell would you expect an artistic medium to exclude such an integral part of adult life? It's like saying well sh*t, I get my jimmies rustled by politics so I don't want to see that stuff in books anymore.

 

Just because romance isn't made explicit with dialogue or cutscenes or sex scenes doesn't mean it's not real or present in the atmosphere of the game.

 

Baldur's Gate for example doesn't really have explicit romance sections but it's romantic all the same.

[RenAdaar]

*I haven't watched the video so this might be a stupid question* But does krem really count as sexual diversity? Seems like his character would be a part of gender diversity? The game doesn't really talk about his sexuality at all (unless I missed something). 

[BabyPuncher]

That's ridiculous. As much as I disagree on how Bioware depicts romance now, why in the hell would you expect an artistic medium to exclude such an integral part of adult life? It's like saying well sh*t, I get my jimmies rustled by politics so I don't want to see that stuff in books anymore.

What kind of stupid reasoning is that?

A huge variety of things are 'integral to adult life.' Is every story in existence obligated to spend time on each and every one of them now? If a writer doesn't want to talk about romance, he's 'excluding' it from you? You're entitled to it and he's robbing you of it?

A story should not be written about something unless the narrator has something meaningful to say about it. A story should generally not include a theme unless the narrator has something meaningful to say about it.

[Panda]

*I haven't watched the video so this might be a stupid question* But does krem really count as sexual diversity? Seems like his character would be a part of gender diversity? The game doesn't really talk about his sexuality at all (unless I missed something). 

 

No, I don't think he does count as sexual diversity at all, but transgenders are part of LGBT+ so I guess that's why he's often discussed when sexual diversity is discussed as well.

[BabyPuncher]

How gay,bi, and trans characters make a difference to people more so than you will ever consider if you live in a first world country...

Oh, I do consider it.

But when it seems that all a writer has to do is declare a character gay to be met with squeals of glee and be showered in praise - like right now, for instance - it doesn't lead to me feeling sympathy.

It leads to me feeling contempt.

[Medhia_Nox]

@BabyPuncher:  But your name is "BabyPuncher" - your contempt seems in your nature and isn't really relevant(has no meaning) to anyone but you and maybe those few cronies you have that share it.  

 

You don't get to decide "meaning".  If Dorian means something to a gamer - your entire rant remains correct regardless of whether or not your contempt is being directed toward something you may, or may not, feel "has no meaning".  There's an entire section of these forums directed to the "meaning" of the NPCs to players.  How you feel about those people and their feelings toward video game characters is, again, not relevant when asking the question:  "Does this 'thing' have meaning." 

 

And of COURSE the writers intended it to have meaning.  Krem was an exploration of a transgendered character.  Iron Bull was another step into the philosophy of the Qun.  Blackwall was the exploration of a man with a dark past seeking redemption.  Cassandra was the exploration of a woman bound by duty, but struggling with doubt.  You could make the argument that "it's too spread thin" - that no one thing is given enough time to truly explore it - and that's a valid discussion.  Dismissing it as pandering - is ignorant and self-righteous. 

 

The very idea of a fully gay character who actually approaches gay topics for one of the first times in the history of gaming... means something, to someone.  So chill.

[Shechinah]

Oh, I do consider it.

But when it seems that all a writer has to do is declare a character gay to be met with squeals of glee and be showered in praise - like right now, for instance - it doesn't lead to me feeling sympathy.

It leads to me feeling contempt.

 

While I disagree with you in this case, I can understand what you mean since I've seen a fair share of literature where an author introduces characters of different sexualties and minorities but neglects to develop them further and only focuses on that as their sole trait or relies on semi- or whole stereotypical traits to make the character yet are praised solely for including homosexuality but not a homosexual person. It should be noted that the people doing the praising are of all sorts of sexualities and color, though.
 

[9TailsFox]

@BabyPuncher:  But your name is "BabyPuncher" - your contempt seems in your nature and isn't really relevant(has no meaning) to anyone but you and maybe those few cronies you have that share it.  

 

You don't get to decide "meaning".  If Dorian means something to a gamer - your entire rant remains correct regardless of whether or not your contempt is being directed toward something you may, or may not, feel "has no meaning".  There's an entire section of these forums directed to the "meaning" of the NPCs to players.  How you feel about those people and their feelings toward video game characters is, again, not relevant when asking the question:  "Does this 'thing' have meaning." 

 

And of COURSE the writers intended it to have meaning.  Krem was an exploration of a transgendered character.  Iron Bull was another step into the philosophy of the Qun.  Blackwall was the exploration of a man with a dark past seeking redemption.  Cassandra was the exploration of a woman bound by duty, but struggling with doubt.  You could make the argument that "it's too spread thin" - that no one thing is given enough time to truly explore it - and that's a valid discussion.  Dismissing it as pandering - is ignorant and self-righteous. 

 

The very idea of a fully gay character who actually approaches gay topics for one of the first times in the history of gaming... means something, to someone.  So chill.

What gay topics I think we all agree it's not about gay. It's about duty to the family and aranged merrage. We can explor exectly same topic with Josephine. Because she have aranged marriage to but no one cares, and it was made as a joke.

What Dorians means he is first good Tevinter in game.

[Toasted Llama]

I'm happy for you, I truly am.

 

I have nothing against seamless integration of LGBT into a good story, but I don't think it's the job of a video game and an RPG at that, to preach about "social justice" or to become some kind of a disconnected bastion of tolerance, equality, diversity, rainbows and unicorns.

 

Why? Because it destroys any kind of suspension of disbelief for reasons that have nothing to do with the story itself or any in-world elements.

(which is why people like to reffer to it as "pandering")

 

An example would be the sudden Qunari paradigm shift, that was seemingly tailor-made to accommodate Krem. (I actually like his character)

 

I have nothing against gays and their rights, but I have everything against preachiness and condescension.

Actually, games and RPGs are a great way to talk about "social justice", political, social and cultural issues, because the worlds they create are often a reflection of our own world and more importantly: we, the players, can actively interact and influence this world in a way that may not be possible in the real world or might show or put us in a perspective we couldn't have experienced in real life.

 

The fact that many people feel so strongly about mage rights and all have their own unique opinion about the variety of cultures in Thedas, which is all inspired by real life events, only shows that games can spark important conversations and make people think. And games have the ability to tackle these conversations on a different (more detailed and deeper?) level, because players can make world-changing decisions and watch the world and it's characters respond to that decision. The discussions that rise from these "fictional" problems can teach people valuable lessons with similar, real life problems. Additionally the "fictional" problems do not weigh as heavy as our own reality, thus people may find it easier to talk about. They can go back and rectify mistakes they may have made after they realize they were wrong, in real life you can't.

 

And they're also a great medium for escapism, which is one of the primary reasons why people play video games, especially RPGs. Creating a "some kind of a disconnected bastion of tolerance, equality, diversity, rainbows and unicorns" could be vital for the mental health of people struggling with reality. It could give them that confidence boost or that one safe space where they can go, calm down and tackle the world with renewed willpower. It could give them a goal or an ideal of the world that they can strive and fight for. Heck, it could even go as far as to give them a reason to keep going and not commit suicide.

 

The fact that people can find mental strength, safety and security in video games that their direct (toxic) environment may not give is something that should be celebrated and treasured.

And if that is at the cost of suspension of belief and consistency I'm more than happy to sacrifice that. I mean, if I want a good story I go read a book or watch a movie.

[In Exile]

I'm happy for you, I truly am.

I have nothing against seamless integration of LGBT into a good story, but I don't think it's the job of a video game and an RPG at that, to preach about "social justice" or to become some kind of a disconnected bastion of tolerance, equality, diversity, rainbows and unicorns.

Why? Because it destroys any kind of suspension of disbelief for reasons that have nothing to do with the story itself or any in-world elements.
(which is why people like to reffer to it as "pandering")

An example would be the sudden Qunari paradigm shift, that was seemingly tailor-made to accommodate Krem. (I actually like his character)

I have nothing against gays and their rights, but I have everything against preachiness and condescension.

That's absurd. Every single piece of media is politicised. Let's use a different example: torture. Create a game where torture works and secures expedited results and you've sided with one particular political narrative. Do the opposite and side with the other. Exclude it altogether and get criticised for sanitising your product. Media can't avoid being about social issues.

More to the point "pandering" (or "preaching") is a meaningless term. It's just a way to say "catering to someone who isn't me" in a derisive way.

Beyond that, you're completely wrong about the Qun. This comes up in every single thread and I'm just shocked at the number of so-called DA fans who fail to realise that the Qun works on nonsensical Insane Troll logic. The best example is the DA2 Arishok, who said he didn't lose any "Qunari" to the Tal-Vasoth. This point is beyond idiotic - the Tal-Vasoth plaguing Kirkwall are all his former people. However, identities in the Qun all work on the No True Scotsman fallacy. So he can say this without issue. It's the same with gender.

Beyond that, has no one ever bothered to even listen to the IB and Gatt? Whenever they talk about the Qun they talk about how horrible it is to outsiders and how it coming to the south will lead to torture, mind wipes, and the pain and suffering of large swaths of the population.

[Steelcan]

That's absurd. Every single piece of media is politicised. Let's use a different example: torture. Create a game where torture works and secures expedited results and you've sided with one particular political narrative. Do the opposite and side with the other. Exclude it altogether and get criticised for sanitising your product. Media can't avoid being about social issues.

More to the point "pandering" (or "preaching") is a meaningless term. It's just a way to say "catering to someone who isn't me" in a derisive way.

Beyond that, you're completely wrong about the Qun. This comes up in every single thread and I'm just shocked at the number of so-called DA fans who fail to realise that the Qun works on nonsensical Insane Troll logic. The best example is the DA2 Arishok, who said he didn't lose any "Qunari" to the Tal-Vasoth. This point is beyond idiotic - the Tal-Vasoth plaguing Kirkwall are all his former people. However, identities in the Qun all work on the No True Scotsman fallacy. So he can say this without issue. It's the same with gender.

Beyond that, has no one ever bothered to even listen to the IB and Gatt? Whenever they talk about the Qun they talk about how horrible it is to outsiders and how it coming to the south will lead to torture, mind wipes, and the pain and suffering of large swaths of the population.

the issue with the Qun and Krem arises because its inconsistent with what we've seen before from Qunari.  They collectively give zero sh*ts about individual identity, that's kind of their whole schtick.

 

To have them come out in support of transgender people, may be ok in the lore due to writer finangling, but it comes off as being done solely to prevent the implication of oppression towards them being present in Thedas

[In Exile]

the issue with the Qun and Krem arises because its inconsistent with what we've seen before from Qunari.  They collectively give zero sh*ts about individual identity, that's kind of their whole schtick.

 

To have them come out in support of transgender people, may be ok in the lore due to writer finangling, but it comes off as being done solely to prevent the implication of oppression towards them being present in Thedas

 

Except for the fact that the IB said nothing about it being a matter of personal identity as opposed to assignment by the religious caste, and more to the point when Krem dreamily talks about the Qun in that context the IB does his usual dodge when he's trying to cover up how brutal and oppressive his regime is to people. 

 

The first thing the IB introduces you is the fact that torture and re-education are completely and absolutely central to the Qunari, and that anyone who deviates from the role they're believed to embody is broken through - among other things - sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, and repeated interrogation. Not to mention your only role - if they don't just break your mind with poison - is menial labourer. The IB is a huge exception here (and likely because he turned himself in). 

 

The IB didn't say people get to choose gender. He said that the Qunari - using their usual form of insane troll logic - decide that someone fit for the role of a man is a man. 

 

This just comes back to the fact that people don't get the Qun. They didn't get it when Sten talked about it, they missed the point when the Arishok talked about it, and they really missed the point when the IB talks about how horrid it is because of the obsession over Krem. 

[AlanC9]

And they're also a great medium for escapism, which is one of the primary reasons why people play video games, especially RPGs. Creating a "some kind of a disconnected bastion of tolerance, equality, diversity, rainbows and unicorns" could be vital for the mental health of people struggling with reality. It could give them that confidence boost or that one safe space where they can go, calm down and tackle the world with renewed willpower. It could give them a goal or an ideal of the world that they can strive and fight for. Heck, it could even go as far as to give them a reason to keep going and not commit suicide.

How well this works depends on what you're trying to escape from. On the other side we have a faction of players who are trying to escape from "social justice," as they put it.

[Toasted Llama]

How well this works depends on what you're trying to escape from. On the other side we have a faction of players who are trying to escape from "social justice," as they put it.

And if you believe Feminist Frequency then at least 90% of video games ever made provide escapism from social justice.


Seriously though... Duke Nukem? Call of Duty? Battlefield? GTA? The Witcher? .... Hunie Pop? Many, many, MANY racing games? Smash Bros? Mario? Bayonetta? Final Fantasy? Those games don't have any social justice in them as far as I can tell. Especially GTA 5, which is praised as one of the best games ever.

Well maybe Bayonetta has some social justice in it.... But that varies depending on who you ask xD

[PCThug]

And if you believe Feminist Frequency then at least 90% of video games ever made provide escapism from social justice.


Seriously though... Duke Nukem? Call of Duty? Battlefield? GTA? The Witcher? .... Hunie Pop? Many, many, MANY racing games? Smash Bros? Mario? Bayonetta? Final Fantasy? Those games don't have any social justice in them as far as I can tell. Especially GTA 5, which is praised as one of the best games ever.

Well maybe Bayonetta has some social justice in it.... But that varies depending on who you ask xD

And that's the thing. If we're going to talk about pandering up until recently this entire industry almost exclusively pandered to the tastes of one group of people. A few games start to try something different and certain people get all up in arms about "pandering to SJW's."

[JeffZero]

Final Fantasy VII has the underappreciated social justice of teaching children about environmentalism*.







*via terrorism, granted.

[David Gaider]

Except for the fact that the IB said nothing about it being a matter of personal identity as opposed to assignment by the religious caste, and more to the point when Krem dreamily talks about the Qun in that context the IB does his usual dodge when he's trying to cover up how brutal and oppressive his regime is to people. 

 

The first thing the IB introduces you is the fact that torture and re-education are completely and absolutely central to the Qunari, and that anyone who deviates from the role they're believed to embody is broken through - among other things - sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, and repeated interrogation. Not to mention your only role - if they don't just break your mind with poison - is menial labourer. The IB is a huge exception here (and likely because he turned himself in). 

 

The IB didn't say people get to choose gender. He said that the Qunari - using their usual form of insane troll logic - decide that someone fit for the role of a man is a man. 

 

This just comes back to the fact that people don't get the Qun. They didn't get it when Sten talked about it, they missed the point when the Arishok talked about it, and they really missed the point when the IB talks about how horrid it is because of the obsession over Krem. 

 

Yes -- when the idea of Krem being transgender was brought up by Patrick, what we discussed was whether that fit into how we understand the Qun...and it did. It allowed us to explore the Qun idea of gender further, not to mention said something about Iron Bull as well. That made it an opportunity.

 

We did not go "hey, let's change the Qun to be this thing". Why would we? The Qun's concept of gender is not integral to Krem's existence in the Chargers. Iron Bull could just have easily said "yeah, this would never fly under the Qun" and be done with it.

 

I find it interesting that some fans feel they had a complete understanding of the Qun after indirect exposure to it through the eyes of a single character, and that, when exposed to some new facet afterwards, they react as if this new information required "retconning" on our end rather than some thought on theirs. Indeed, that was part of Iron Bull's purpose -- by Sten's estimation, Iron Bull should not be possible, never mind Krem. Iron Bull requires you to take your understanding of the Qunari (who Sten insisted were all monolithic in their purpose) and tilt it 45 degrees. Krem only requires you to understand that the Qunari see gender as a role -- if you are a warrior, you are a male...if Krem insisted on being female and a warrior THAT would make no sense to them -- and thus show another facet of how the Qunari are quite alien to us with regards to their view of certain things.

 

But I suppose it really depends on whether a given fan wants to consider such things. Maybe they'd prefer the Qunari just be the Borg, I don't know. Either way, I'm certain new things about them will continue to be shown by Patrick and co. in the years to come, which will undoubtedly blow peoples' minds with the extent of their "revisionism".

[AresKeith]

But I suppose it really depends on whether a given fan wants to consider such things. Maybe they'd prefer the Qunari just be the Borg, I don't know. Either way, I'm certain new things about them will continue to be shown by Patrick and co. in the years to come, which will undoubtedly blow peoples' minds with the extent of their "revisionism".

 

Qunari invasion confirmed?

[Medhia_Nox]

I would actually pay for a hard copy of the full Book of Koslun and the Chant of Light. 

 

@AresKeith:  Seeing as I don't have the weird interpretation of the Qun that seems rampant on these boards (making stuff up that simply isn't there and taking the actions of two Qunari as "The Qun") - I'd actually DA:4 to put us in the role of a Qunari soldier (Kossith, Elf, Dwarf or Human) and allow that person to become Tal Vashoth or remain loyal to the Qun after truly exploring everything Bioware has to say about the society. 

[JeffZero]

I try to make it a rule in life not to let myself fall into the trap of feigning a complete understanding of any subject, be it the Qun or Business 101, but on the subject of Business 101, I'm doubtful it would be given the proverbial green light to have a Kossith as the protagonist of the next game... which is why I've never given it much thought.

But to have not just a Kossith but any "Qunari" whatsoever as the protagonist... that might be more feasible, yeah. Interesting idea, Medhia_Nox. I can dig it.

What I'd love is a few origins complete with DAO's actual playable origin missions and then having characters and learned lore apply to the rest of the game thereafter, but I'm careful not to dwell much on that. I don't want to get too attached to the idea because I don't really see it happening budgetarily.

Barring that, one really good, juicy unified background (with room for minor adjustments) would be rad. Qunari would be a cool one. Tevinter (Tevintiri? Tevintirite? ...Roman? Why do I not know this?) would be good, too, and perhaps more marketable.

Edited to add: Boy, I have positively mastered the art of full-scale off-topic posting. Whoops.

[Laughing_Man]

Yes -- when the idea of Krem being transgender was brought up by Patrick, what we discussed was whether that fit into how we understand the Qun...and it did. It allowed us to explore the Qun idea of gender further, not to mention said something about Iron Bull as well. That made it an opportunity.

 

We did not go "hey, let's change the Qun to be this thing". Why would we? The Qun's concept of gender is not integral to Krem's existence in the Chargers. Iron Bull could just have easily said "yeah, this would never fly under the Qun" and be done with it.

 

I find it interesting that some fans feel they had a complete understanding of the Qun after indirect exposure to it through the eyes of a single character, and that, when exposed to some new facet afterwards, they react as if this new information required "retconning" on our end rather than some thought on theirs. Indeed, that was part of Iron Bull's purpose -- by Sten's estimation, Iron Bull should not be possible, never mind Krem. Iron Bull requires you to take your understanding of the Qunari (who Sten insisted were all monolithic in their purpose) and tilt it 45 degrees. Krem only requires you to understand that the Qunari see gender as a role -- if you are a warrior, you are a male...if Krem insisted on being female and a warrior THAT would make no sense to them -- and thus show another facet of how the Qunari are quite alien to us with regards to their view of certain things.

 

But I suppose it really depends on whether a given fan wants to consider such things. Maybe they'd prefer the Qunari just be the Borg, I don't know. Either way, I'm certain new things about them will continue to be shown by Patrick and co. in the years to come, which will undoubtedly blow peoples' minds with the extent of their "revisionism".

 

It's very easy to deflect the issue especially when the lore is vague enough, but the thing is, we didn't make these assumptions in a vaccum.

The Qun was shown more or less as an extremely utilitarian version of North Korea, everything is considered through the the question of "is this good for the Qun"? No place for sentiments, at least not according to the official line.

 

Why would this utilitarian view require them to assume that "gender is a role -- if you are a warrior, you are a male"? Can't they just use the word *warrior* instead of the word *Male*? A true Utilitarian view would simply not care about physical gender, and would assume roles according to precieved potential and ability.

 

To me, that said that someone tried to make the Qun more cuddly, and at the same time extend a rather meaningless olive branch towards transgenders, for reasons that had less to do with the story and more to do with political opinions.

[AlanC9]

It's very easy to deflect the issue especially when the lore is vague enough, but the thing is, we didn't make these assumptions in a vaccum.
The Qun was shown more or less as an extremely utilitarian version of North Korea, everything is considered through the the question of "is this good for the Qun"? No place for sentiments, at least not according to the official line.
 
Why would this utilitarian view require them to assume that "gender is a role -- if you are a warrior, you are a male"? Can't they just use the word *warrior* instead of the word *Male*? A true Utilitarian view would simply not care about physical gender, and would assume roles according to precieved potential and ability.
 
To me, that said that someone tried to make the Qun more cuddly, and at the same time extend a rather meaningless olive branch towards transgenders, for reasons that had less to do with the story and more to do with political opinions.

But all this proves is that some of your assumptions, while perhaps reasonable ones, turned out to be wrong. Surely it can't be a problem that some things in the game-world don't turn out to be exactly the way you thought they seemed to be at first.

Though honestly, I don't know how you took "utilitarian" away from Sten's dialogue when you're playing a female Warden. It's pretty clear that It sounded to me like the Qun simply isn't about whether peoples' talents are being used in an efficient manner.

[Broganisity]

*dances back into this topic full of caltrops and SNAKES ITS A SNAKE!!!*

On the topic of 'the point of Dorian', I'm not sure where this whole 'the point of Dorian is that he's gay' idea comes from.

If anything, the purpose of Dorian is "Hey, this guy's Tevinter, but he's not everything we've heard about Tevinter; he's not enslaving people with blood magic and then using them for blood magic at all! Oh look- it's his father, who seems to be everything we've heard about Tevinter." . Dorian is about changing Tevinter's Image and Tevinter itself.' It's all about the clash between Parent versus Child, Patriot versus Patriot, Old View versus New View, Our original perception of Tevinter versus the New insight from Dorian. His personal quest with his father just adds to all of this.

Him being gay is a mere afterthought in comparison. He could have been straight or bi or into cacti or what all else, and I can imagine his character not missing a beat: His father's view would likely be unchanged and still be 'no, you must marry this person because you might have better babies, also we told you to. Keep all that other stuff to yourself'. and Dorian would have been all like, 'No, I don't want to be like you and mom. I want to be like me and do the stuff that I like'. . .where stuff means 'sex with person/persons/cacti'.

 

. . .and I ain't touching this Krem Argument nonsense with a fifty-nine-and-a-half foot pooooooooooooooooooole.

[esper]

I don't see how Krem makes the Qun more cuddly. I thinks it makes it more horrifying. It is a great fantasy for Krem who just so happens to be a ftm and a warrior, but try to imagine being anything else. 

 

Try to imagine being Cassandra and born under the Qun. Cassandra is a warrior through and through, her personality and skill set has apperently always had that inclanation, and the Qun would likely regonize that. She can't be in the priesthoods because they are spies and she doens't have the flair for lying, in fact as da:i shows, she is terrible at getting informaiton, which mean that she would be assigned under the arishok and thus be assigned the gender of male.

 

If it goes one way it goes another, ya know.

[BabyPuncher]

Dismissing it as pandering - is ignorant and self-righteous.

Except I'm not actually dismissing the content at all? Aside from some irritation about not being given dialogue to disagree with Bull when he insists Krem is a 'real man,' I was fine with Krem. And while I wasn't particularly happy with Dorian's arc, it had nothing to do with him being gay.

My contempt is towards the reaction of the players.

You don't get to decide "meaning".

This is flatly ridiculous.

Of course I get to decide meaning. I'm a man with a functioning brain, am I not?

Why don't you stop and think for a moment how stupidly inundated with hypocrisy this is? I'm sure you've criticized elements of stories in your life? I can pretty much guarantee you that each of those elements of every story had 'meaning' to someone, somewhere. Is every complaint about every narrative ever made 'self righteous' because someone, somewhere found 'meaning' in the topic of criticism?