1001 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Here, I think, is the crux of your problem.

 

Which "personal view" do you think would matter, in this case?

 

Have you considered the possibility that they would not view Krem's gender as a "personal view"? That Krem did not say "pretty please", and then the Tamassrans went "okay, we'll put you in a male role, but only because you asked so nicely."

 

We are telling you the Qunari have a more nuanced view of gender, because it does apply absolutely to their role, insofar as they're concerned. At what point that occurs, and how it happens, we haven't really gone into...but consider that, prior to the point at which their role is irrevocably assigned, the Tamassrans would also be the ones raising a child and preparing them and also assessing them. They decide where said child fits, not the child. This does not contradict anything else we've told you. That's all I guess I can really say about it.

 

This thread is clearly evidence that not everyone had the same reading of the Qunari as I did... but my take about how the IB danced around the topic of how the Qunari perceived Krem with Krem around (and how he generally dances around the more reprehensible aspects of his own culture, which is just a bigger part of his own struggle with whether or not he wants to be a Qunari) was always that gender is just another one of those things that you don't get a choice in.  

 

It's indicative when Cassandra asks the IB about how he views her that he dodges the question with a judge. It's what he tends to do when approaching the more uncomfortable aspects of his life, and his own struggle with whether or not he is still a Qunari (which was what kicked off his turning himself in to be re-educated to start with). 

[In Exile]

What exactly was the mental gymnastics on gender?  As far as DA2 and Qun lore go a female cannot be a soldier.  Period.  The Ben-Hassrath lead by the Ariqun can have spies such as Tallis.  According to DAI whatever it is now.

 

It's quite clear what the Qunari as a whole view as a "warrior"  It's someone who was specifically bred for that role or someone that has a gift in that area and would be exceptional in that position that is a male.  That's not my interpretation.  That's how it was established.  The Qun is law.  Not Sten or the Arishok or their views or interpretation.  The Arishok is also the military arm only.  Personal views do not....or they didn't used to matter in Qunari society before DAI.

 

The Qun does look at your sex.  It is considered embarrassing for a male (as in someone born with a penis) to farm in Qunari society, but in times to great need or war they would do it, but they would not be happy about it.  That was said by a Bioware person on this forum clearing this up.

 

 

I have to admit these days I don't have the care in me to debate these issues.  This is just how it was.  If its not anymore then thats fine.  I don't have a dog in the fight at this point so to say.

 

Look - the Qunari do not use correspondence theory as their way of understanding language pertaining to identity. The fact that they label something as "male" (or "merchant" or "Sten") does not mean that they think this term captures an underlying reality. It's a definition they apply. 

 

It is considered an acceptable transgression for a Qunari to step outside his or her role when the Qun demands it, and then only in times of great need. But it's this abstract "role" that defines what you are, and it's the priesthood (as I recall) that defines that role. It's not you and it's not objective reality.

The italics portion is where you (and others) seem to struggle so much with Krem. It doesn't matter that Sten would be the best baker in Thedas if he were allowed to bake. He is a "Sten". What he's best at follows by definition from what he was assigned to be at the right age. 

 

Sten even explains this when he talks about farmers turning into merchants, carrying their former life like a turtle and its shell. The Arishok explains this to you when he talks about Sarebaas, and how you accept your role and thrive or deny it and die. 

 

Your role isn't a profession. It is everything that you are in the Qun. In the same way, your gender isn't your biological identity. That's the insane troll logic of it all. 

 

I'm not saying you have a problem with this in the sense that you have some moral objection to it. I'm just saying that I don't think that you've grasped their weird logic, despite your fandom. 

 

 

Why do you believe the Qun is truly 100% utilitarian society of robots where any sort of feeling is verbotten and everything is only run in the most efficient of manners possible? Because Sten believes it is, even when he himself is a walking, talking proof to the contrary if you dig into his dialog?

 

The clearest proof that they're not utilitarian is their use of magic. They lost last time because of how they've leashed their mages. The abuse that they heap onto them is insane. And yet they do it - despite the awe-inspiring power of magic in this setting - because of their a priori belief that it is evil. Just look at what happens with Sarebaas in DA2. A dedicated and useful person commits suicide because the Qun demanded it. The Arishok - the military leader of the Qun - lives in isolation in Kirkwall rather than call reinforcements (or retreat) because of his screw-up with the Tome of Koslun. He - out of petty spite and frustration - decides to raze Kirkwall to the ground in Act 2. The Qunari are not utilitarian in the way we would use that word. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

the issue with the Qun and Krem arises because its inconsistent with what we've seen before from Qunari.  They collectively give zero sh*ts about individual identity, that's kind of their whole schtick.

 

To have them come out in support of transgender people, may be ok in the lore due to writer finangling, but it comes off as being done solely to prevent the implication of oppression towards them being present in Thedas

 

Actually the notion that sometimes a Qunari can be reassigned a different gender was mentioned long before DAI. One of the devs mentioned it years ago (Mary Kirby maybe?). But since I probably can't find it buried in years of archives, it was also mentioned in World of Thedas Volume 1.

 

We never really got a comprehensive view of how Qunari society functions, so Iron Bull was there to fill in a lot of the gaps. And I think the idea Bioware has tried to get across recently with Iron Bull and Tallis is that when dealing with dissent, the Qun doesn't necessarily always go straight for brutal torture and brainwashing as it's first resort.

 

Of course it's also worth noting that the Qunari view of transgender people is different from ours, so in some ways it's still sort of archaic. Today we are able to grasp the idea that a woman who joins the military can still be a woman. If the Qunari eventually concluded that a particular female should be assigned to the Antaam, the conclusion is that she must actually be the equivalent of a transgender man.

[In Exile]

I imagine Bioware didn't want to spell out that idea given the can of worms it would open without making it the real focus of a plot.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

How would they know Krem would be suitable as a warrior, a male role, when he has the body of a biological female and thus raised as such? Or if they do train women for male roles as well as female roles and visa versa, does that mean that for example a woman who is a tomboy would have to identify as a man? Or a more effeminate man would have to identify as a woman? I'm genuinely curious how this works. 

[Geth Supremacy]

 

Your role isn't a profession. It is everything that you are in the Qun. In the same way, your gender isn't your biological identity. That's the insane troll logic of it all. 
 

 

Help me grasp this then.  Are you saying gender doesn't matter and a female CAN be a soldier even though according to lore it can't?  What I am missing here.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Help me grasp this then.  Are you saying gender doesn't matter and a female CAN be a soldier even though according to lore it can't?  What I am missing here.

 

Only the male gender can be military in the Qun. However, a few biologically female Qunari can become soldiers because they are considered to be male in gender.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm also curious about how now that Bioware has fully embraced the Big Three in terms of sexualities(bisexual, heterosexual, and homosexual), what are their plans for the more minor sexualities, like asexuality, demisexuality, omnisexuality, etc? 

[Geth Supremacy]

Only the male gender can be military in the Qun. However, a few biologically female Qunari can become soldiers because they are considered to be male in gender.

 

Ok and where is the basis for this?  Where did this come from?  Are we talking about DAI and the "cuddly" Qun now or was this before?

 

From the Qun I was introduced to and followed this was a big fat negative.  Not gonna happen.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas mentions rare exceptions to gender roles in the Qun on page 128. I'm also pretty sure it was mentioned years ago by the devs on Bioware Social. Somewhere in the olden days. 

[Potato Cat]

How would they know Krem would be suitable as a warrior, a male role, when he has the body of a biological female and thus raised as such? Or if they do train women for male roles as well as female roles and visa versa, does that mean that for example a woman who is a tomboy would have to identify as a man? Or a more effeminate man would have to identify as a woman? I'm genuinely curious how this works. 

Well we know fighting under the Qun is not strictly for men. The Ben-Hassrath are made up of men and women and are combat trained. It's just that fighting is not the crucial component in those roles. So it's likely girls will receive some combat training to see if they would be suitable for Ben-Hassrath work. And if it turns out the girl only has aptitude for fighting, then perhaps she needs to be declared male.

[Potato Cat]

World of Thedas mentions rare exceptions to gender roles in the Qun on page 128. I'm also pretty sure it was mentioned years ago by the devs on Bioware Social. Somewhere in the olden days. 

I think what was said was there are only a few roles that aren't gender specific.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I have the book in front of me. it says "Most roles are gender specific. But the odd very rare exception is made. A male Qunari will farm, if he must, just as a female Qunari will fight."

 

Although I also did find the dev post I was talking about before. Turns out it was from Gaider.

 

 

What Sten meant was that qunari females don't become soldiers-- they don't live by their blade or get trained in combat. This doesn't mean that they are incapable of fighting when the situation calls for it. That would be a very un-feminine thing to do. If a female qunari persisted down such a path, however, that would call into question their gender-- socially (not biologically, which is something that really only concerns the Tamassrans) qunari are identified by their role. A qunari that fights is a male, for all intents and purposes. Every other qunari would simply refuse to see it otherwise.

This doesn't mean that qunari females are free to be males, if they wish-- the Ben-Hassrath might have something to say about that, as chances are they'd be defying whatever role the Tamassrans had already assigned them.

There is some grey area, mind you. There are female Ben-Hassrath, and they do learn how to fight-- but in a different manner from a soldier. They don't live by their blade. And Tal'Vashoth, of course, break all rules of qunari culture by their very nature. A female qunari who had abandoned the Qun could do as she wished.

 

[Geth Supremacy]

I have the book in front of me. it says "Most roles are gender specific. But the odd very rare exception is made. A male Qunari will farm, if he must, just as a female Qunari will fight."

 

Although I also did find the dev post I was talking about before. Turns out it was from Gaider.

 

"What Sten meant was that qunari females don't become soldiers-- they don't live by their blade or get trained in combat. This doesn't mean that they are incapable of fighting when the situation calls for it. That would be a very un-feminine thing to do. If a female qunari persisted down such a path, however, that would call into question their gender-- socially (not biologically, which is something that really only concerns the Tamassrans) qunari are identified by their role. A qunari that fights is a male, for all intents and purposes. Every other qunari would simply refuse to see it otherwise.

This doesn't mean that qunari females are free to be males, if they wish-- the Ben-Hassrath might have something to say about that, as chances are they'd be defying whatever role the Tamassrans had already assigned them.

There is some grey area, mind you. There are female Ben-Hassrath, and they do learn how to fight-- but in a different manner from a soldier. They don't live by their blade. And Tal'Vashoth, of course, break all rules of qunari culture by their very nature. A female qunari who had abandoned the Qun could do as she wished."

 

This is not saying females can be soldiers.  They can fight under the Ariqun, but they cannot be soldiers. 2 different things.  "if he must" not "if he chooses or wants to"

 

Also if you persisted down a path that was not yours and re-education did not take hold then qamek would.  Then you would be mindless.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This is not saying females can be soldiers.  They can fight under the Ariqun, but they cannot be soldiers. 2 different things.  "if he must" not "if he chooses or wants to"

 

Also if you persisted down a path that was not yours and re-education did not take hold then qamek would.  Then you would be mindless.

 

I was directly quoting David Gaider. Are you actually saying you know more about the Qunari than the devs?

[Geth Supremacy]

I was directly quoting David Gaider. Are you actually saying you know more about the Qunari than the devs?

 

Nope I quoted and rehashed exactly what he said tbh.

 

me talking about qamek is the exact same things as him saying "Ben-Hassrath might have something to say about that, as chances are they'd be defying whatever role the Tamassrans had already assigned them"  what do you think he meant by that?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So you just ignored the part where he said their gender would be called into question?

[Geth Supremacy]

So you just ignored the part where he said their gender would be called into question?

 

No I saw that, but if you keep reading he says under the Qun is unacceptable unless they turn Tal-Vashoth.

 

You can take that 1 specific part sure, but if you take the quote as a whole it shows its an issue under the Qun.

[Geth Supremacy]

I was directly quoting David Gaider. Are you actually saying you know more about the Qunari than the devs?

 

I think I see what you mean now.

 

He was talking about a female fighting and then ends it with "Every other qunari would simply refuse to see it otherwise."

 

I think this means that at that point all Qunari would see it as male.  I get it now.  I just had to read it and really take it in.  I believe I see what you are trying to say now and that might be the right interpretation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not every conversation the Ben-Hassrath have with dissenters necessarily involves brainwashing or qamek. I would assume that if the Re-Educators concluded that a female dead set on fighting that was still loyal to the Qunari would be more useful in the Antaam than as a mindless viddath-bas she would have her gender and role reassigned. 

 

Of course, David Gaider posted in this very thread earlier today, so if he does again, maybe he himself can clarify what he meant, but to me that post describes the exactly how Iron Bull said the Qun would view Krem, so I wasn't surprised at all to hear it at all in DAI. 

[Steelcan]

Very well said. Escapism is a big part of why I play video games. Why would I want to play a fantasy game just to face the same crap I do in real life? I don't need it to be all pretty and shiny either, but you can have a middle-ground.

because fantasy, like all stories, should tackle uncomfortable questions

 

there isn't much middle ground involved in "does this story portray hard issues or does it stay away from anything too controversial?"

[Capone666]

Some major ownage in this thread currently

 

Thanks to the community the interview will be transcribed and posted with that those answers tomorrow!

 

Happy Happy day

[Heimdall]

How would they know Krem would be suitable as a warrior, a male role, when he has the body of a biological female and thus raised as such? Or if they do train women for male roles as well as female roles and visa versa, does that mean that for example a woman who is a tomboy would have to identify as a man? Or a more effeminate man would have to identify as a woman? I'm genuinely curious how this works.

Well, roles are picked out by the Tamassrans who raise them, right? I imagine it would be their call, whatever signs they look for.

[Seraphim24]

It sounds like just wanting the character to be a completely different one, without factoring in what kind of person he's written to be. 

 

I'm just saying I think people can not like or like things about these characters or their presentation, questions of sexuality aside.

 

I also think a lot of Bioware characters are pretty similar to each other, to be honest, and changing the labels but making the same core characters is kinda.. eh... not so inspiring (not saying that's Dorian though of course).

 

This is a thread purely about sexuality and it's representation though so....

 

because fantasy, like all stories, should tackle uncomfortable questions

 

there isn't much middle ground involved in "does this story portray hard issues or does it stay away from anything too controversial?"

 

I don't think DA goes far enough, to be honest, there's dozens of much crazier things I'd like to see discussed at one point or another.

 

That said I'd go crazy if I didn't have Pokemon or something to balance out all the politics. As long as people are willing to leave games that want to be entertainment alone I'm ok with other games being as political as they want.

 

The day people start hounding Pikachu to have a stance on Transgenderism is the day they get a really mean message from me. =-)

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm also curious about how now that Bioware has fully embraced the Big Three in terms of sexualities(bisexual, heterosexual, and homosexual), what are their plans for the more minor sexualities, like asexuality, demisexuality, omnisexuality, etc? 

Isn't omnisexuality another word for pansexuality? If so, I thought that's what Bull was.

 

because fantasy, like all stories, should tackle uncomfortable questions

 

there isn't much middle ground involved in "does this story portray hard issues or does it stay away from anything too controversial?"

Well, I disagree simply because Dragon Age has been a good middle-ground for me.