90 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Just a small correction; if you are referring to the Temple of Mythal then it is Mythal that the Inquisitor asks about.

I think I may be offering a poor explaination but without an origin, a game can still offer plenty of oppertunities to establish your character and their past like say, in a conversation with Cassandra you can answer in different ways on how you liked life amongst your clan and you can voice an opinion on your gods. This is a different sort of roleplaying that is not for everyone and to some it may be because it can feel to them more along the lines of "tell-don't-show." whereas an origin is more "show-don't-tell".

Both are fine ways of establishing a character, in my opinion, as long as they are done well and provide ample oppertunity. Some like the origin because it sets the enviroment their character grew up in while others may dislike an origin because they feel it restricts their roleplaying because it sets the enviroment. In some cases, of course, no background or past is given due to amnesia or something of the sort.

While I personally prefer an origin story myself, I do not think it is necessary to feature in every game and can be left out if it serves the story better as long as it provides ample oppertunities to provide an alternative. If we are going to Tevinter in DA:4 and if we do start out as a slave then that could provide a single origin if we were born and raised in captivity but still leave roleplaying oppertunities in how the enviroment reacts to us.

That is absolutely valid... however, if the player does not know a piece of lore or understand who or what something is, having the main character be the one to supply the information can be a bit jarring. It's like having your character say "My people are devout followers of Buddha, I was raised in worship of his teachings all my life" and the player say "uh... okay, who is Buddha now, exactly?"

You saw this in Pillars of Eternity, where a character with skills in history and Intelligence was able to make statement and comments about game lore that the player had zero way of knowing (or even understanding at points). It can be a dangerous roleplaying tool, if not used correctly. Then again, having the chafacter play ignorant (such as the Mythal example, sorry for my mischaracterization) about things they could (or perhaps SHOULD) know about is very dangerous, too.

[Shechinah]

*snip*

Indeed but I consider that more a case of an engregious oversight which makes it by no means more glaring and immersion-breaking but still makes it not intentionally.

 

I also understand your example regarding Buddha but it is still amusing to me because I know of people who are followers of buddhism but have no idea who Buddha actually is or of the role. Your point, of course, still stands.      

 

[Lulubelle]

That is absolutely valid... however, if the player does not know a piece of lore or understand who or what something is, having the main character be the one to supply the information can be a bit jarring. It's like having your character say "My people are devout followers of Buddha, I was raised in worship of his teachings all my life" and the player say "uh... okay, who is Buddha now, exactly?"

 

I can imagine being a human noble who was just rebellious and uninterested enough to not catch any significant mythology or geography of the region. That's how I played my human noble in Origins. 

 

I can easily see what life would have been like for a circle mage, because of the origin story in Origins and everything we learned in the first two games.

 

I can extrapolate what it must be like to grow up a city elf, because they're really poor people who are dumped into slums because of their race, while simultaneously not being connected to the history and lore like the dalish are.

 

But the dalish... they grow up with songs and lore. They can't not know them, the same way you can't not know who Red Riding Hood is. If your character is a mage, he or she was being trained to take over as the next Keeper so they would know their lore. They would talk more in elven ruins. They'd react to the statues of Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf and the Betrayer, all over the Exalted Wastes. They'd have conflict with Solas and Sera over what it means to be an elf, and they'd mention the god they dedicated themselves to (the vallaslin we pick in character creation) from time to time. 

 

Imagine an elven mage, First to their Keeper, with the vallaslin of Mythal, asking who Mythal is.

[CronoDragoon]

But the dalish,,, they grow up with songs and lore. They can't not know them, the same way you can't not know who Red Riding Hood is. If your character is a mage, he or she was being trained to take over as the next Keeper so they would know their lore. They would talk more in elven ruins. They'd react to the statues of Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf and the Betrayer, all over the Exalted Wastes. They'd have conflict with Solas and Sera over what it means to be an elf, and they'd mention the god they dedicated themselves to (the vallaslin we pick in character creation) from time to time. 

 

Imagine an elven mage, First to their Keeper, with the vallaslin of Mythal, asking who Mythal is.

 

I was very satisfied by my Dalish playthrough, besides that one Temple flub. I did argue with Solas and Sera (especially Solas) over what being an elf was, and in particular what being a Dalish was. I was provided opportunities to define my relationship with my clan (aloof) and I was able to express my religious views on the Elven Gods. Whenever I spoke with elves I was given special dialogue options specific to me being an elf. At the Temple, I was given special dialogue options with Abelas, along with special dialogue for choosing to drink from the Well.

 

It's not feasible for the game to react to your race in every single situation to which it might be relevant.

[Fast Jimmy]

I can imagine being a human noble who was just rebellious and uninterested enough to not catch any significant mythology or geography of the region. That's how I played my human noble in Origins.

I can easily see what life would have been like for a circle mage, because of the origin story in Origins and everything we learned in the first two games.

I can extrapolate what it must be like to grow up a city elf, because they're really poor people who are dumped into slums because of their race, while simultaneously not being connected to the history and lore like the dalish are.

But the dalish,,, they grow up with songs and lore. They can't not know them, the same way you can't not know who Red Riding Hood is. If your character is a mage, he or she was being trained to take over as the next Keeper so they would know their lore. They would talk more in elven ruins. They'd react to the statues of Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf and the Betrayer, all over the Exalted Wastes. They'd have conflict with Solas and Sera over what it means to be an elf, and they'd mention the god they dedicated themselves to (the vallaslin we pick in character creation) from time to time.

Imagine an elven mage, First to their Keeper, with the vallaslin of Mythal, asking who Mythal is.

Agreed. Of course, not being able to properly develop each possible race is an example of how the ambitions of the game resulted in limitations. DA:O was able to do multiple races in some pretty satisfying ways with both the Origins as well as the silent PC... but DA:I sought to do even more races with a fully voiced character, which meant a huge budget bloat.

I'm not making a case for the silent PC, but doing multiple voices races, with multiple options for each gender, with a exponentially larger world size, with a much larger number of NPCs, on brand new engine technology and across nearly every gaming platform... it's a huge request. And the final product reflects some of the seriously cut corners to make it all happen.

[Fast Jimmy]

I was very satisfied by my Dalish playthrough, besides that one Temple flub. I did argue with Solas and Sera (especially Solas) over what being an elf was, and in particular what being a Dalish was. I was provided opportunities to define my relationship with my clan (aloof) and I was able to express my religious views on the Elven Gods. Whenever I spoke with elves I was given special dialogue options specific to me being an elf. At the Temple, I was given special dialogue options with Abelas, along with special dialogue for choosing to drink from the Well.

It's not feasible for the game to react to your race in every single situation to which it might be relevant.

Well... FEASIBLE isn't the right word, really. It's certainly feasible to do. But at what cost?

[Lulubelle]

@CronoDragoon

 

I'm just starting WPHW, but I don't remember ever discussing what being Dalish meant with Sera or Solas. I do remember listening to their banter, but my character didn't participate. Maybe I'd have discussed it in their romance?

 

I did define my relationship to my clan, and it was close. So far I had the option of informing them I was alive and - that was it. No more from them. I expressed my views on Elven Gods, but after the Fade my Inquisitor declared that he had been believing Andraste pulled him out the first time (without any dialogue prompt!).

[Shechinah]

*snip*

 

Although it felt like NPCs outside of the Inner Circle reacted less to my Inquisitor being elven, it actually meant more to me than it did in Origins because of how my Inquisitor was able to express it to and with the companions; the discussion with Solas, the arguing with Sera, the conversations with Cassandra and Josephine. Not to mention Abelas and Flemeth. The game did not just acknowledge that my Inquisitor was elven, it gave me the oppertunities to go semi-in-depth with how they felt about it and what it meant to them. I

 

Essentially; it asked me about it rather than just stating it.   
 

[Lulubelle]

Speaking of starting What Pride Had Wrought"...

 

Morrigan: "So, Temple of Mythal, here."

 

Expected reaction: I thought that was lost / Wow / Yay, another temple. 

 

Actual (unprompted) reaction: "What's that?"

 

I hope this is the scene people were talking about and he won't ask who she is later...

[In Exile]

That is absolutely valid... however, if the player does not know a piece of lore or understand who or what something is, having the main character be the one to supply the information can be a bit jarring. It's like having your character say "My people are devout followers of Buddha, I was raised in worship of his teachings all my life" and the player say "uh... okay, who is Buddha now, exactly?"

You saw this in Pillars of Eternity, where a character with skills in history and Intelligence was able to make statement and comments about game lore that the player had zero way of knowing (or even understanding at points). It can be a dangerous roleplaying tool, if not used correctly. Then again, having the chafacter play ignorant (such as the Mythal example, sorry for my mischaracterization) about things they could (or perhaps SHOULD) know about is very dangerous, too.

 

I still remember the first encounter when your PC starts on a bit of a lengthy instruction on the finer points of some god's faith. It's just such a "Wait, what!?" scene. Following multiple PTs I've understood the content of that scene better but at first it was just a deluge of nonsense, and I couldn't wrap my head around why the NPC reacted the way that he did (with anger, versus something else). It was just a total non-sequitur. 

 

So I can understand the issue. But the thing is, Bioware already developed a solution. In ME1, when you first meet Nihulus, to help you avoid looking like an idiot Shepard has "questions" in the dialogue wheel but actually answers them in dialogue. That's the best solution. A protagonist with the right background makes the declaration that the NPC would otherwise make, because it's in character.

 

For those who object to interrogative paraphrases becoming declarative, you can just swap "Who's Mythal?" to "I know Mythal." You actually have those options via the knowledge perks in some places (ironically with the Dalish!). 

[In Exile]

Agreed. Of course, not being able to properly develop each possible race is an example of how the ambitions of the game resulted in limitations. DA:O was able to do multiple races in some pretty satisfying ways with both the Origins as well as the silent PC... but DA:I sought to do even more races with a fully voiced character, which meant a huge budget bloat.

I'm not making a case for the silent PC, but doing multiple voices races, with multiple options for each gender, with a exponentially larger world size, with a much larger number of NPCs, on brand new engine technology and across nearly every gaming platform... it's a huge request. And the final product reflects some of the seriously cut corners to make it all happen.

 

Absolutely not. DA:O failed so miserable on multiple races that the game should never be cited for it. Aside from the origins - which were effectively wholly separate games that were never referred again and whose character motivations were actively purged with a fury at Ostagar - you were indistinguishably identical throughout the game. NPCs had mind powers to determine you were a Grey Warden most of the time (despite your lack of identifiers - even Blackwall had some plate) and besides saying "Oh, elf" you got nowhere.

 

Gender got more reactivity to it in DA:O than race. 

[CronoDragoon]

Well... FEASIBLE isn't the right word, really. It's certainly feasible to do. But at what cost?

 
Cost is why it isn't feasible. Sorry I didn't elaborate on that.
 
 

I'm just starting WPHW, but I don't remember ever discussing what being Dalish meant with Sera or Solas. I do remember listening to their banter, but my character didn't participate. Maybe I'd have discussed it in their romance?

Off the top off my head, in Haven you can approach Solas and get into an argument about the Dalish. Later in Skyhold you and Solas have a talk on your balcony where Solas admits he totally misread you and possibly the Dalish in their entirety (to which you can respond). After Wicked Hearts you can tell Solas you're sorry about Briala (if she gets exiled) and then he talks about how he doesn't identify with other elves like her, and you can respond. There's also more stuff during and after WPHW and it's pretty great, so we can talk more then.
 

I did define my relationship to my clan, and it was close. So far I had the option of informing them I was alive and - that was it. No more from them. I expressed my views on Elven Gods, but after the Fade my Inquisitor declared that he had been believing Andraste pulled him out the first time (without any dialogue prompt!).

That sounds like a bug, or possibly you mistakenly picked an earlier option. My Dalish Inquisitor said nothing of the sort, and indeed you can gloat to Giselle about being right that Andraste was never a factor.

General word of advice: Feedback section is a spoiler section. You might want to finish everything and then come back as I'm pretty sure I mentioned some stuff in earlier posts you haven't seen yet.

[TheCrippler]

Dragon age origins was 100-1000 time better then dragon age inquisition the only thing that dragon age inquisition has good is Open world, dragons, crafting, mining, keeps,war table and that is that.

[Shechinah]

 
That sounds like a bug, or possibly you mistakenly picked an earlier option. My Dalish Inquisitor said nothing of the sort, and indeed you can gloat to Giselle about being right that Andraste was never a factor.

It sounds a lot like a bug to me because I cannot recall my Dalish Inquisitor saying anything like that either so it may be the game mistakenly believing the the dialogue option earlier that activates that auto-remark was selected.

 

In addition to CronoDragoon said, you can also discuss what life was like with the Dalish during a conversation with Cassandra even as early as Haven as well as your faith or lack thereof. There is also some options with Josephine, I believe, like there is with the other racial options.

[Lulubelle]

 
General word of advice: Feedback section is a spoiler section. You might want to finish everything and then come back as I'm pretty sure I mentioned some stuff in earlier posts you haven't seen yet.

 

No worries, I'm spoiled as I can get.

 

I remember being polite to Giselle. The elf mage was surrounded by people of a different religion who were also hurt and desperate, so it made sense to stay diplomatic, but I always picked the elven gods options if they were available. Edit: I did get the opportunity to gloat to her later though...

 

Speaking of WPHD, another stupid moment - they're standing in front of the mural of Falon'Din, and he asks Morrigan who that's supposed to be :/ Afterwards he gets an elven conversation option that they also used to worship him. (This quest is the first time I've ever seen that "elven" conversation option icon btw.)

 

The game is confused. And I'm confused.

[CronoDragoon]

Speaking of WPHD, another stupid moment - they're standing in front of the mural of Falon'Din, and he asks Morrigan who that's supposed to be :/ Afterwards he gets an elven conversation option that they also used to worship him. (This quest is the first time I've ever seen that "elven" conversation option icon btw.)
 
The game is confused. And I'm confused.

One of the themes of that quest is that what the Dalish think about the Gods and what actually happened back in the days of Arlathan are completely different. Consider the time those murals were painted (Arlathan days) compared to what a Dalish elf probably sees Falon'Din as depicted.

Considering the rest of the quest, I don't think it's out of the question that a Dalish Quizzy's puzzlement is intentional. YMMV.