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[Elhanan]

Dragon Age and Fantasy will take precedent over Sci-Fi generally for my games, as well as a preference to avoid cut-scene based gameplay as is seen in the ME series. While this is only my opinion, it is not alone.

DAI is not an Open World game; it is a story based game using MMO-like areas. And if one reads the reviews, both games are praised for different things. Both games have achieved success.

[Ariella]

Dragon Age and Fantasy will take precedent over Sci-Fi generally for my games, as well as a preference to avoid cut-scene based gameplay as is seen in the ME series. While this is only my opinion, it is not alone.DAI is not an Open World game; it is a story based game using MMO-like areas. And if one reads the reviews, both games are praised for different things. Both games have achieved success.

There's a thought that's been wander about. How do you think say, the Hinterland would have been structured under the old formula. Or how rifts would be dealt with? I've got a few ideas on the former but it becomes a radically different game in my mind.

And no, this isn't snark. I am curious and wondering if things would have been better or worse if they'd gone with setup like the Dalish treaty quest.

[Morroian]

Now back to the success of DAI.

TW3 sells over 4 mill in two weeks. How does DAI compare?

http://www.ign.com/a...pies-in-2-weeks

 

Idle thought: seeing as how that figure came from CDPR it would include digital sales I presume, whereas the vgchartz figures for DAI are only for box sales. Its highly likely that if digital sales were included DAI was probably on a similar level given EA stated it was BWs most successful launch ever. 

[Elhanan]

There's a thought that's been wander about. How do you think say, the Hinterland would have been structured under the old formula. Or how rifts would be dealt with? I've got a few ideas on the former but it becomes a radically different game in my mind.

And no, this isn't snark. I am curious and wondering if things would have been better or worse if they'd gone with setup like the Dalish treaty quest.

As is, the Hinterlands may have more cut-scenes than most other areas outside of Haven/ Skyhold. It already allows the Player the freedom to stay and explore, or follow the story back to Haven and beyond, so am uncertain if placing more emphasis on the latter would be good, as choice is a key element.

One suggestion for an approach to other areas that might be examined: more of what was seen in JoH for both an entrance and exit from the Area story would be fine. But I am already fond of Scout Harding, so this is also biased.

[Shechinah]

What? No one ever asked for DA to be like Skyirm they are completely different franchises with different priorities

Bioware just wanted to jump on the Skyrim hype don't blame the fans

While the decision was Bioware's or possibly EA's, some of the fans were requesting that Bioware look into Skyrim as a source of inspiration and potentially implement similar features into their games. The success of Skyrim might have sparked additional interest for EA to make theme explore this but I believe there were expressed request from fans so it was not unprompted that they decided to do so.

 

[Ariella]

What? No one ever asked for DA to be like Skyirm they are completely different franchises with different priorities
Bioware just wanted to jump on the Skyrim hype don't blame the fans

I was here for it, and I'm not that old that my memory's gone.

Make it more like Skyrim was a battle cry, along with make it like Witcher 2. The way some of the people went on, you'd think they'd found the Holy Grail.

As is, the Hinterlands may have more cut-scenes than most other areas outside of Haven/ Skyhold. It already allows the Player the freedom to stay and explore, or follow the story back to Haven and beyond, so am uncertain if placing more emphasis on the latter would be good, as choice is a key element.One suggestion for an approach to other areas that might be examined: more of what was seen in JoH for both an entrance and exit from the Area story would be fine. But I am already fond of Scout Harding, so this is also biased.

I used Hinterland because it's the easiest to divide up. The major quest areas that you need are Crossroads and Redcliff. Possible zones for Templar hold and mares if they were to be upgraded to major quests, plus Valmmar, so that's five zones which is about the same as the Brecilian forest.

[Elhanan]

What? No one ever asked for DA to be like Skyirm they are completely different franchises with different priorities
Bioware just wanted to jump on the Skyrim hype don't blame the fans

No blame to be had; DAI is a success, as are Skyrim and TW3. More pls....

[Majestic Jazz]

Dragon Age and Fantasy will take precedent over Sci-Fi generally for my games, as well as a preference to avoid cut-scene based gameplay as is seen in the ME series. While this is only my opinion, it is not alone.

DAI is not an Open World game; it is a story based game using MMO-like areas. And if one reads the reviews, both games are praised for different things. Both games have achieved success.

DAI is open world. It isnt seamless open world like Witcher or Skyrim, but it is open world.

Also DAI got great reviews, but I am talking about general consumer opinion here, not media reviews. Both games are financially successful but DAI's reputation success is another story. Again, living in this BSN bubble. All around the net WRPG gamers are saying how TW3 did things way better than DAI and that TW3 represents the future of the genre, not DAI. The last time people pointed to a Bioware game as the future for the genre it was Mass Effect 1, again claiming my point that ME is Bioware's main dish.

DAI got high praise in a time where there were no other current gen WRPGs in the market. Many people bought it but some enjoyed it. This is my point. DAI fans just want to point to review scores, goty awards, and EA's claim that DAI is Bioware's most successful launch and stick only to that and ignore all other criticisms. Again, I am a Bioware fan but I an not a blind fanboy either. I understand that DAI is not Bioware's best effort and that it needs serious improvememt moving forward.

Like I said people buy products all the time in which they regretted the purchase.

A few pages back I posted a comparison between TW3's metacritic user score and DAI's and of course people here discredit it. People here just cannot fathom that DAI is a pretty average game released in a year full of average or below average games that did nothing to progress the wrpg genre. DAI left wrpg fans wanting more and TW3 gave them that "more".

[The Elder King]

Tsk, tsk... comparing user ratings of a game that's been more than half a year on the market to the one that's still on its 'honeymoon' period (it hasn't been even a month since TW3 was released)?
 
Hah...

 
I don't value much about Metacritic, but to be fair, I recall DAI's scores after some weeks, and they were lower then TW3 at this point.

What? No one ever asked for DA to be like Skyirm they are completely different franchises with different priorities
Bioware just wanted to jump on the Skyrim hype don't blame the fans

There were a lot of people that asked for Bioware to increase their game world. Not necessarily as Skyrim, but it was used ad a comparison.

[The Elder King]

DAI is open world. It isnt seamless open world like Witcher or Skyrim, but it is open world.
Also DAI got great reviews, but I am talking about general consumer opinion here, not media reviews. Both games are financially successful but DAI's reputation success is another story. Again, living in this BSN bubble. All around the net WRPG gamers are saying how TW3 did things way better than DAI and that TW3 represents the future of the genre, not DAI. The last time people pointed to a Bioware game as the future for the genre it was Mass Effect 1, again claiming my point that ME is Bioware's main dish.
DAI got high praise in a time where there were no other current gen WRPGs in the market. Many people bought it but some enjoyed it. This is my point. DAI fans just want to point to review scores, goty awards, and EA's claim that DAI is Bioware's most successful launch and stick only to that and ignore all other criticisms. Again, I am a Bioware fan but I an not a blind fanboy either. I understand that DAI is not Bioware's best effort and that it needs serious improvememt moving forward.
Like I said people buy products all the time in which they regretted the purchase.
A few pages back I posted a comparison between TW3's metacritic user score and DAI's and of course people here discredit it. People here just cannot fathom that DAI is a pretty average game released in a year full of average or below average games that did nothing to progress the wrpg genre. DAI left wrpg fans wanting more and TW3 gave them that "more".

It should be noted that Bioware's games suffered a lot of criticism and negativity from DAO to DAI. No game was spared, and everytime there Are people saying Bioware is Dying or Changing. Both here and outside. DAI's situation isn't exactly new.

[Elhanan]

DAI is open world. It isnt seamless open world like Witcher or Skyrim, but it is open world.

Also DAI got great reviews, but I am talking about general consumer opinion here, not media reviews. Both games are financially successful but DAI's reputation success is another story. Again, living in this BSN bubble. All around the net WRPG gamers are saying how TW3 did things way better than DAI and that TW3 represents the future of the genre, not DAI. The last time people pointed to a Bioware game as the future for the genre it was Mass Effect 1, again claiming my point that ME is Bioware's main dish.

DAI got high praise in a time where there were no other current gen WRPGs in the market. Many people bought it but some enjoyed it. This is my point. DAI fans just want to point to review scores, goty awards, and EA's claim that DAI is Bioware's most successful launch and stick only to that and ignore all other criticisms. Again, I am a Bioware fan but I an not a blind fanboy either. I understand that DAI is not Bioware's best effort and that it needs serious improvememt moving forward.

Like I said people buy products all the time in which they regretted the purchase.

A few pages back I posted a comparison between TW3's metacritic user score and DAI's and of course people here discredit it. People here just cannot fathom that DAI is a pretty average game released in a year full of average or below average games that did nothing to progress the wrpg genre. DAI left wrpg fans wanting more and TW3 gave them that "more".

Metacritic is discredited based on flawed data, so I go elsewhere for info; hoping others follow suit.

And as consumer opinion is almost always in flux, perhaps waiting for TW3 to grow a few months might be advisable before making a determination, let alone a comparison.

DAI may have left some wanting more, including myself; that is what DLC is for....

[Majestic Jazz]

I don't value much about Metacritic, but to be fair, I recall DAI's scores after some weeks, and they were lower then TW3 at this point.

I saw DAI's user score sometime in early December and they were LOW. And this is my main point. DAI sold well because people bought into the hype but in the end, there are MANY dissatified owners of DAI, me being one of them. To me that isnt success.

Again, people can dismiss metacritic but it does paint a picture of the general consesus regarding DAI v TW3.

And dont say that people are in the TW3 honeymoon. Please, two weeks after release and people are pointing to TW3 as the future of the genre. People was NOT doing that for DAI two weeks after launch.

I find it funny how DAI fans like to say "oh just wait a few months. TW3 is in a honeymoon period. We will know what they really think later."

BS! ME3 had no honeymoon period, DA2 had no honeymoon period. To act like it is default for a new game to be praised early and then bashed later is just BS. People are praising TW3 now and they will later this year all while nobody talks about DAI other than BSN.

Also when I say DAI left us wanting more, I do not mean storu, I mean wanting more from the WRPG genre and TW3 filled that void. DAI will release some story DLC.....but so will TW3. One 10 hour DLC in October for TW3 and a 20 hour DLC in early 2016. This will be along with whatever Bioware puts out for DAI so the TW3 vs DAI debate will continue.

[Elhanan]

I saw DAI's user score sometime in early December and they were LOW. And this is my main point. DAI sold well because people bought into the hype but in the end, there are MANY dissatified owners of DAI, me being one of them. To me that isnt success.

Again, people can dismiss metacritic but it does paint a picture of the general consesus regarding DAI v TW3.

And dont say that people are in the TW3 honeymoon. Please, two weeks after release and people are pointing to TW3 as the future of the genre. People was NOT doing that for DAI two weeks after launch.

I find it funny how DAI fans like to say "oh just wait a few months. TW3 is in a honeymoon period. We will know what they really think later."

BS! ME3 had no honeymoon period, DA2 had no honeymoon period.

On Metacritic perhaps, esp as DA2 had a boatload of 0's and 10's at launch; possibly earlier. The site is bogus.

But if one goes only to a single source for info, esp when it entails opinions, they might simply be acquiring the chorus of opinions they seek.

[Majestic Jazz]

On Metacritic perhaps, esp as DA2 had a boatload of 0's and 10's at launch; possibly earlier. The site is bogus.

But if one goes only to a single source for info, esp when it entails opinions, they might simply be acquiring the chorus of opinions they seek.

Ever ask yourself why DAI got 1s and 0s and TW3 didnt?

Also I am not looking for opinions I seek. No matter where I go, I am ALWAYS seeing people praise TW3 while claiming how DAI fell short such as fetch quest and TW3s better side quest and open world.

I can give you examples but all you are going to do is dismiss it.

Admit it, DAI sold well but TW3 sold well also and is also being praised more post release. That makes TW3 more successful.

If Metacritic is crap, then how come TW3 wasnt a victim of this same crap?

[FKA_Servo]

I saw DAI's user score sometime in early December and they were LOW. And this is my main point. DAI sold well because people bought into the hype but in the end, there are MANY dissatified owners of DAI, me being one of them. To me that isnt success.

Again, people can dismiss metacritic but it does paint a picture of the general consesus regarding DAI v TW3.
 

 

People can and should completely disregard metacritic's user score, particularly with popular games. It's primarily shitlording trolls with an axe to grind doling out knee jerk zeros an hour after the game releases, with a peppering of equally deluded people awarding 10s in support of their own agenda. It does not represent any genuine consensus.

 

If you give it any credence at all, you're nuts.

[Majestic Jazz]

People can and should completely disregard metacritic's user score, particularly with popular games. It's primarily shitlording trolls with an axe to grind doling out knee jerk zeros an hour after the game releases, with a peppering of equally deluded people awarding 10s in support of their own agenda. It does not represent any genuine consensus.

If you give it any credence at all, you're nuts.

So where are the 1s and 0s for TW3? How come TW3 has not fell victim to the metacritic nonsense?

[In Exile]

So where are the 1s and 0s for TW3? How come TW3 has not fell victim to the metacritic nonsense?

 

Because apparently TW3 didn't punt anyone's dog through a plateglass window yet. CDPR is very good, generally, about prostating itself before the right groups of gamers. I mean, just look at how they basically misled their way through TW2/TW3 being PC-led development. 

[FKA_Servo]

So where are the 1s and 0s for TW3? How come TW3 has not fell victim to the metacritic nonsense?

 

Probably because TW3 is a good game. I'm not inclined to deny that it is. What it doesn't seem to be is a particularly controversial game. My personal position is that the type of person who's going to kneejerk trash a Bioware game is also going to kneejerk praise a game like TW, but that's just a hunch.

 

However, if you actually read the CONTENT of the complaints on metacritic about DAI, people crap on it for the most ridiculous and absurd reasons. "I don't like Sera! Zero!" "Gay pandering! It gets a zero!" "Bioware is terrible! It gets a zero!"

 

Added to that, there were hundreds of trash metacritic scores within hours of the release. Really, everyone managed to play the game long enough to form these informed and nuanced opinions? C'mon now.

[nici2412]

Because apparently TW3 didn't punt anyone's dog through a plateglass window yet. CDPR is very good, generally, about prostating itself before the right groups of gamers. I mean, just look at how they basically misled their way through TW2/TW3 being PC-led development. 

So the downgrade shitstorm was just an imagination? Funny that the user metascore is 9.1 on pc althought in theory it met all the requirements to attract the "0/10 trolls":

a) AAA game

very hyped at release

c) controversy (downgrade)

 

People should accept that Dragon Age has the userscore it deserves. It's a mediocre game and got mediocre ratings from the users. There is no big conspiracy to give bioware games low scores.  I would rather question the magazine scores for Bioware games. I remember Dragon Age 2 had a 86% metascore a few weeks after release. Some magazines even gave it a perfect score . Only after the players started to point out how mediocre the game was, the overall scores started to drop.

The biggest german magazine for example (gamestar) lowered it's score from 88% to 80% last year and apologized for the 88%.

Same with Mass Effect 3. I don't remember a single magazine mentioning the screwed ending. There is something really shady going on with Bioware and "professional" reviewers and I don't trust them anymore than the players.

[In Exile]

So the downgrade shitstorm was just an imagination? Funny that the user metascore is 9.1 on pc althought in theory it met all the requirements to attract the "0/10 trolls":

a) AAA game

very hyped at release

c) controversy (downgrade)

 

People should accept that Dragon Age has the userscore it deserves. It's a mediocre game and got mediocre ratings from the users. There is no big conspiracy.  I would rather question the magazine scores for Bioware games. I remember Dragon Age 2 had a 86% metascore a few weeks after release. Some magazines even gave it a perfect score . Only after the players started to point out how mediocre the game was, the overall scores started to drop.

The biggest german magazine for example (gamestar) lowered it's score from 88% to 80% last year and apologized for the 88%.

Same with Mass Effect 3. I don't remember a single magazine mentioning the screwed ending. There is something really shady going on with Bioware and "professional" reviewers and I don't trust them anymore than the players.

 

To me, that sounds more like pandering to the audience (on the gaming mag point). It's perfectly legitimate not to have these issues and to think that these games are worth their scores. If I was reviewing DA:I, I'd give it an 88% because, frankly, I don't care about most of the issues other gamers have with it. I'd probably dock TW3 for a very different set of issue, but still score it in the 90s. If I was reviewing DA2, I'd probably give it a similar score to DA:I, because for me, what a game does right matters a lot more than what a game does wrong, as long as it falls within the range of what I like. Does that mean I'm somehow pandering, or that my tastes just don't line up with the majority?

 

The downgrade issue in TW3 is pretty self-contained, and that doesn't have to translate into an actual review push. People are far too obsessed with completely arbitrary ratings by people who take the time to review games online. They're not proof of anything, because they're not statistically relevant. 

 

What I think drove people - in ME3 and DA2/DA:I - to lower ratings is that Bioware actually insulted the fans, and did it pretty blatantly and repeatedly. It also is worth noting that, in the DA case in particular, Bioware in spent a lot of time dismissing or demeaning a lot of cherished features from DA:O, or just dismissing DA:O entirely. 

 

There is an unhealthy obsession with gamers trying to prove that stuff they like somehow has objective ground. Who cares? 

[Enosh]

I'm not sure the industry really cares all that much. Who is really competing in the AAA "RPG" space these days besides Bioware, Bestheda and CDPR?

you really believe that EA won't care how some polish studio managed to completely blow their their flagship fantasy RPG out of the water in sales, user opinion and critic scores all while doing it on a comparative budged of 2 bottles of vodka and a hot potato?

[The Elder King]

I saw DAI's user score sometime in early December and they were LOW. And this is my main point. DAI sold well because people bought into the hype but in the end, there are MANY dissatified owners of DAI, me being one of them. To me that isnt success.
Again, people can dismiss metacritic but it does paint a picture of the general consesus regarding DAI v TW3.
And dont say that people are in the TW3 honeymoon. Please, two weeks after release and people are pointing to TW3 as the future of the genre. People was NOT doing that for DAI two weeks after launch.
I find it funny how DAI fans like to say "oh just wait a few months. TW3 is in a honeymoon period. We will know what they really think later."
BS! ME3 had no honeymoon period, DA2 had no honeymoon period. To act like it is default for a new game to be praised early and then bashed later is just BS. People are praising TW3 now and they will later this year all while nobody talks about DAI other than BSN.
Also when I say DAI left us wanting more, I do not mean storu, I mean wanting more from the WRPG genre and TW3 filled that void. DAI will release some story DLC.....but so will TW3. One 10 hour DLC in October for TW3 and a 20 hour DLC in early 2016. This will be along with whatever Bioware puts out for DAI so the TW3 vs DAI debate will continue.

I was actually debating the honeymoon part in my post, since I said that after the same period TW3 has better scores then DAI. My opinion on Metacritic is irrelevant on this point.

[The Elder King]

you really believe that EA won't care how some polish studio managed to completely blow their their flagship fantasy RPG out of the water in sales, user opinion and critic scores all while doing it on a comparative budged of 2 bottles of vodka and a hot potato?

TW3's development cost wasn't that low, even compared to DAI.

[In Exile]

you really believe that EA won't care how some polish studio managed to completely blow their their flagship fantasy RPG out of the water in sales, user opinion and critic scores all while doing it on a comparative budged of 2 bottles of vodka and a hot potato?

 

You mean a budget in USD that was about half of what EA spent, and by PPP probably equivalent if not greater? With a profit margin in foreign currency, that made the actual marginal returns on their investment proportionally greater? 

 

I'm sure EA would care. But EA isn't "the industry". But anyway, this absurd fantasy of CDPR Red - financed by the biggest game distributor in Europe - as a tiny polish arthouse developer has to stop. I believe the current figure is something like 65 million USD in development costs, which is clear AAA territory and, by comparison with EA given the currency stuff, is probably equal to or greater than what was spend on DA:I in marketing and development.