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[Fast Jimmy]

It was just hot air to stall for time because the writers had nothing yet. If it was actually beyond organic understanding then it is also beyond the understanding of the writers and now the antagonist has no motive which would be ****** stupid.

 

If ME1 was better written they probably could have done some foreshadowing there instead of a thunderous monologue where Shepard literally asks what their motives are and is told that he is too dumb to get it lol.

 

I agree that ME2's big Reaper reveal was bad, really bad. Whoever was responsible for that just didn't get it.

 

Anyhow ME2 makes a good case that the characters, setting, and background conflicts were all more interesting things than the Space Squids and the series would have been better off if that had been dropped after the first game.

 

Personally I think that if they were going to do a Reaper arc across a trilogy they had already screwed up the plotting with ME1 and blown their load far too early to put it crudely.

 

I think it would have been fine if they had just stuck with "you cannot fathom our reasons." It could have been as simple yet terrifying as that. Instead of providing an excuse, they could have continued to say "we are an advanced life form who will no longer suffer organics - now you must die because we say so." That was the strength of Sovereign's message... it's finality and doom was laced with the fact that there was no negotiation, no workaround, no loophole. Keeping the Reapers a mystery would have been the best move possible, as it would have given credence to their claim that their motivations were simply beyond human comprehension.

 

Turning the Reaper cycles into a breeding ceremony like what ME2 did really muddied the waters. And then having the big reveal be, essentially, a broken AI whose logic was so flawed it was painful to even listen to, took away all sense of danger and made them more like cartoony idiot bots than the menacing threat they came across as in ME1.

 

 

Just my own two cents. The final decision should have been some question of how Shephard destroyed the Reapers, such as sacrificing Earth or destroying the other species, each with its own implications and repercussions for the galaxy and for the squad's companions. Instead, you had to agree and trust the Reapers, at least in some fashion, to win. Even Destroy requires trusting that the Catalyst (again, an AI which essentially admits it is an insane AI not functioning as intended) is telling the truth and that shooting bullets at a tube will eliminate the threat posed and not just kill Shephard by possibly releasing some toxic gas which the Catalyst would be immune to, being merely a holographic projection.

ANYTHING would have been better than what we got with ME3. 

[KotorEffect3]

No you don't

[Aimi]

I think it would have been fine if they had just stuck with "you cannot fathom our reasons." It could have been as simple yet terrifying as that. Instead of providing an excuse, they could have continued to say "we are an advanced life form who will no longer suffer organics - now you must die because we say so." That was the strength of Sovereign's message... it's finality and doom was laced with the fact that there was no negotiation, no workaround, no loophole. Keeping the Reapers a mystery would have been the best move possible, as it would have given credence to their claim that their motivations were simply beyond human comprehension.

I agree, but...a much more effective way of communicating that the Reapers had unknowable, eldritch motivations would have been to never have had a conversation with some random human in the first place.

The whole confrontation between Shep and Sovereign was weird. Leave aside the whole "why does indoctrinated Saren need a pulpit and a Prothean beacon to talk to Sovereign in the first place" issue, which one can kind of explain but not without hand-waving. You've still got Sovereign talking to Korvettenkapitän Doofus McScrubface instead of hanging up the phone immediately after figuring out that "you are not Saren". Why? Why waste time having this pointless revealing conversation with the aforementioned human? And why wait until after the pointless conversation to do something about it? Only afterward do you get the (sonic boom?) window-shatter and the "a turn that would tear any of our ships in half" alert from Joker.

At least the villains in the stereotypical "Republic serials" (copyright Ozymandias 1985) had the excuse that they were weak humans; one could explain their incompetence away by accepting that they were just kinda stupid in that way. Making Sovereign, an immensely ancient and powerful AI with supposedly infinite and unknowable motivations, into an intelligence on a par with Dr. Evil or Jerma just destroys any sense of power or mystery about it. Sovereign just becomes a big thug who likes to trash talk. And big thugs that like to trash talk are fine as enemies - sometimes they can be pretty memorable. But when they try to pretend that You Cannot Even Fathom Why I Will Destroy You the trash-talk kind of undercuts itself.

Sovereign's message might have had strength - presumably from the deep, menacing voiceover rather than the content - but a stronger one would have been letting actions speak for themselves.

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree, but...a much more effective way of communicating that the Reapers had unknowable, eldritch motivations would have been to never have had a conversation with some random human in the first place.

The whole confrontation between Shep and Sovereign was weird. Leave aside the whole "why does indoctrinated Saren need a pulpit and a Prothean beacon to talk to Sovereign in the first place" issue, which one can kind of explain but not without hand-waving. 

 

Well, Saren actually needed the Prothean beacons to find where the secret Conduit prototype was, so he could sneak into the Citadel with Geth forces. He could talk to Sovereign from the time they first met.

 

You've still got Sovereign talking to Korvettenkapitän Doofus McScrubface instead of hanging up the phone immediately after figuring out that "you are not Saren". Why? Why waste time having this pointless revealing conversation with the aforementioned human? And why wait until after the pointless conversation to do something about it? Only afterward do you get the (sonic boom?) window-shatter and the "a turn that would tear any of our ships in half" alert from Joker.

At least the villains in the stereotypical "Republic serials" (copyright Ozymandias 1985) had the excuse that they were weak humans; one could explain their incompetence away by accepting that they were just kinda stupid in that way. Making Sovereign, an immensely ancient and powerful AI with supposedly infinite and unknowable motivations, into an intelligence on a par with Dr. Evil or Jerma just destroys any sense of power or mystery about it. Sovereign just becomes a big thug who likes to trash talk. And big thugs that like to trash talk are fine as enemies - sometimes they can be pretty memorable. But when they try to pretend that You Cannot Even Fathom Why I Will Destroy You the trash-talk kind of undercuts itself.

Sovereign's message might have had strength - presumably from the deep, menacing voiceover rather than the content - but a stronger one would have been letting actions speak for themselves.

 

I agree that a better outcome would have been "oh, and while I've been talking with you and distracting your primitive minds, I've already ambushed your position. Prepare to die." Instead, Sovereign doesn't turn around until AFTER he's done talking, which makes no sense, I agree.If there had been some purpose or sneak plan that had arisen out of the conversation, this would have made the "supreme intelligence" idea more convincing, no doubt. Still, it was quite the mind bend when it first happened.

 

Not quite the same feeling when being told that...

 

[In Exile]

Cthulu doesn't ring you up to have a chat. The horror that Lovecraft created comes from two elements: (i) our powerlessness and (ii) our irrelevance. Those are the two fears that he cultivates in his work. Videogames can't really handle this type of foe, because we're neither powerless nor irrelevant. We will win, and we will do it by kicking a lot of ass in the most empowering way possible, and in a Bioware game we're the most important person in the history of ever and all important leaders drop what they're doing to execute our will, so we're not irrelevant.

 

And this is why ME3 doesn't work. Ignoring the thematic gibberish that is the ending, the issue with trusting the Catalyst is a problem because the player doesn't buy into being someone who has no power to do otherwise. This is why Harbinger showing up and just BOOM lasering you is so ridiculous. It's totally realistic (that's how lots of people die in wars) but in a game about making you powerful and relevant this kind of tone-shift is adverse and nonsensical. 

[Jock Cranley]

Casey.. 

 

I think I'll give him the benefit of a doubt for a game or two.

 

As long as he stays the hell away from writing.

[Fast Jimmy]

Cthulu doesn't ring you up to have a chat. The horror that Lovecraft created comes from two elements: (i) our powerlessness and (ii) our irrelevance. Those are the two fears that he cultivates in his work. Videogames can't really handle this type of foe, because we're neither powerless nor irrelevant. We will win, and we will do it by kicking a lot of ass in the most empowering way possible, and in a Bioware game we're the most important person in the history of ever and all important leaders drop what they're doing to execute our will, so we're not irrelevant.

 

And this is why ME3 doesn't work. Ignoring the thematic gibberish that is the ending, the issue with trusting the Catalyst is a problem because the player doesn't buy into being someone who has no power to do otherwise. This is why Harbinger showing up and just BOOM lasering you is so ridiculous. It's totally realistic (that's how lots of people die in wars) but in a game about making you powerful and relevant this kind of tone-shift is adverse and nonsensical. 

 

Precisely. The series spends hundreds of hours building up the idea that Shephard could unite the galaxy to overcome the greatest threats... when in reality, all life is doomed and its salvation comes not at the hands of Shephard, but at the mercy/glitch of the psychotic Emperor AI deciding to change its plan. 

 

One could say "but Shephard was the one who caused that mind change!" But even this falls flat when you consider that all control over the situation after that point is made moot - Shephard must accept what the Catalyst is saying, no matter what. And the only choices that are on the table are the ones the Catalyst proposes, all while seeing the ballet of genocide going on right outside the window, proving that the Catalyst won't even pause the slaughtering of organics even when it freely admits a change is necessary and quite imminent. 

[Fast Jimmy]

The hope for the galaxy has always been riding on the efforts of those who came before (the Protheans). The Crucible is just an extension of that... cycles upon cycles of effort. It's a win for organics.. not the Catalyst.

 

And Shepard is just the Fox Mulder of the story, screaming the "Truth" from the rooftops. 

 

My 2c.

 

Yes, but that's not how the story presents itself until the final moments of the game. While instead carrying the torch of a message of hope, unity and heroism. 

 

 

Man, I'm starting to sound like David.

[In Exile]

Precisely. The series spends hundreds of hours building up the idea that Shephard could unite the galaxy to overcome the greatest threats... when in reality, all life is doomed and its salvation comes not at the hands of Shephard, but at the mercy/glitch of the psychotic Emperor AI deciding to change its plan. 

 

One could say "but Shephard was the one who caused that mind change!" But even this falls flat when you consider that all control over the situation after that point is made moot - Shephard must accept what the Catalyst is saying, no matter what. And the only choices that are on the table are the ones the Catalyst proposes, all while seeing the ballet of genocide going on right outside the window, proving that the Catalyst won't even pause the slaughtering of organics even when it freely admits a change is necessary and quite imminent. 

 

This would work just fine if the entire series was about an overwhleming sense of hopelessness and powerlesness in the face of an unyielding reaper genocide. Hell, it might even be justifiable if ME3 was about a sense of hopelesness and powerlessness. But you go from massive victory to massive victory, even ending a centuries old blood feud (potentially). It's so dissonant. 

[Fast Jimmy]

This would work just fine if the entire series was about an overwhleming sense of hopelessness and powerlesness in the face of an unyielding reaper genocide. Hell, it might even be justifiable if ME3 was about a sense of hopelesness and powerlessness. But you go from massive victory to massive victory, even ending a centuries old blood feud (potentially). It's so dissonant. 

 

Agreed. I finished the game with such a feeling of apathy, that all actions made during the course of the journey were for absolutely nothing. That the choices provided reflected nothing of the 100's of hours leading up to it. That it was all some type of sick, twisted joke.

 

 

And I still feel that way. Which is why I will never even contemplate picking up and playing the trilogy (or any future installments) again. The ending shattered any sense of interest I had in the story world. I feel nothing towards the entire experience, except slight disappointment that I ever picked it up in the first place.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Man, I'm starting to sound like David.

 

Late David was like a wild bro. We all loved him!

[Killdren88]

Casey Hudson, sounds so familiar.   Wasn't he the guy who locked himself and one other person in an office, thereby shutting out the rest of the story development team in order to come up with the very A-B-C ending Mass Effect fans had been reassured all throughout the trilogy would never happen?

 

Yeah, I think that's him.  

 

The effort it must of took to not laugh during that interview....

[Fast Jimmy]

I was already getting kind of bored after Rannoch. Just not a fan of that last batch of quests, except Cronos (and even then, Cronos deserved Miranda -- and I say that as a Jack fan. Even I know better). There's a drop in quality in general. Most of all with Earth. Just how toned down and minimalist can a finale be? Oh, and I just love the holograms. Awesome.

So yeah, I wonder why you weren't apathetic before the endings.

I was, don't get me wrong. Every time we fought Cerberus as the main enemy instead of the Reapers, I felt like banging my head against the wall. Rannoch and Tuchanka got my blood flowing, because it felt like those sections were written with a lot of forethought and actually telling a good story instead of trying to make some type of "statement." But then Cronos felt like a complete detour instead of being a climactic encounter and Earth itself felt like a demo level, a remnant from when the game was still in Alpha stages.

So yeah, I wasn't riding a Rollercoaster of high emotions prior to the ending, but I kept barreling through, hoping that this long, boring road trip would be worth the final destination. Instead, the story drove the station wagon over a cliff and crashed into a ravine, blowing itself up and killing all sense of enjoyment.

[Beerfish]

Was part of the big mistake of ME3, partly fostered on the success of the precious two and a bit of unintentional hubrus.

 

Nothing can take away ME1 and ME2 however, two of the finer and more fun games I have played.

[In Exile]

Agreed. I finished the game with such a feeling of apathy, that all actions made during the course of the journey were for absolutely nothing. That the choices provided reflected nothing of the 100's of hours leading up to it. That it was all some type of sick, twisted joke.

 

 

And I still feel that way. Which is why I will never even contemplate picking up and playing the trilogy (or any future installments) again. The ending shattered any sense of interest I had in the story world. I feel nothing towards the entire experience, except slight disappointment that I ever picked it up in the first place.

 

I'm still willing to give ME Next a shot, depending on how far they go into the "pretend ME2-3 never happened" approach. The alleged leaked survey sounds like it works for me as a framing device, and everything else can just be fan discontinuity. 

 

I should add that while I liked ME2, I really think all the problems started with that game, which had a pointless main plot. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm still willing to give ME Next a shot, depending on how far they go into the "pretend ME2-3 never happened" approach. The alleged leaked survey sounds like it works for me as a framing device, and everything else can just be fan discontinuity.

I should add that while I liked ME2, I really think all the problems started with that game, which had a pointless main plot.

Eh. The premise of the leaked survey sounds like a brand new IP to me, with maybe the same races. You won't get the Ctidael, the homeworlds, the famous locations or intergalactic politics... it might as well be a different universe altogether from the sounds of it.

I agree that it sounds good that they are just pretending the ME3 endings didn't happen (except maybe Destory), but the fact that they are doing a "mysterious, powerful, ancient alien civilization" thing again just is sending warning lights off in my head.

[In Exile]

Eh. The premise of the leaked survey sounds like a brand new IP to me, with maybe the same races. You won't get the Ctidael, the homeworlds, the famous locations or intergalactic politics... it might as well be a different universe altogether from the sounds of it.

I agree that it sounds good that they are just pretending the ME3 endings didn't happen (except maybe Destory), but the fact that they are doing a "mysterious, powerful, ancient alien civilization" thing again just is sending warning lights off in my head.

I think the original setting is very much dead thanks to ME3, and I'm a big fan of continual reboots. Canon bloat is one thing I hate about comics.

So we'll see. What I liked about ME was that it was sci-fi in a world of fantasy. The world itself was pretty meh.