110 réponses à ce sujet

[Allattar1]

Chas1024 wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're simply wrong. It wouldn't matter if Leliana's mother had lived until she was an adult. Children here in Australia who live in NESB families (non-English speaking background) prove it. Their parents speak Arabic or Cantonese or Greek or Italian with the native accents of that country - their children frequently speak Arabic & Greek etc with an Australian accent. Not their parents' accent, but the accent of the country they live in - even when English is their second language.

Edit: Or at least they do after beginning preschool or school. After being exposed to the local culture, is my point.

Interesting, I wonder how that comes about. They will never have heard there parents language spoken with a foreign accent so there must be some sort of cross over with there english accent. I have never encountered a native english speaker who has acquired a foreign accent in english from living abroad and speaking another language but presumable it can happen.

Then you have never met an English speaker who was born, or raised from an early age in a non-English speaking country.

You may have met someone who moved abroad at a less formative age such as their teen years or older.

[jon 45]

Chas1024 wrote...

I get the point you and others have made it is just a different one to mine. Of couse children of foreign parents living in an english speaking culture speak english with the local accent not that of their parents. But this would apply to Leliana when she spoke Orlesian. She would have had no reason to speak Ferelden with the Orlesions she lived among. What I didn't get was how speaking Orlesian with Orlesians would give her an accent when speaking Ferelden given she had learned Ferelden at an early age from a native. But I understand from other posts in this thread that this can happen.

You don't seem to understand how accents when speaking foreign languages come about. It is not that everyone who is French, Spanish, German or Italian learned to speak English with a distinctive accent instead of learning the proper Queen's English, it is that despite the fact that they are trying quite hard to speak clear English their naturally acquired accent comes through. It requires some talent and training to overcome this, and even then people are bound to slip back into their native accent when not actively trying to sound differently.

[Chas1024]

jon 45 wrote...
You don't seem to understand how accents when speaking foreign languages come about. It is not that everyone who is French, Spanish, German or Italian learned to speak English with a distinctive accent instead of learning the proper Queen's English, it is that despite the fact that they are trying quite hard to speak clear English their naturally acquired accent comes through. It requires some talent and training to overcome this, and even then people are bound to slip back into their native accent when not actively trying to sound differently.

I do understand that. My point was that Ferelden is not a foreign language to Leliana.  I assumed she learned it form her mother before or at the same time as she learned Orlesian. Cildren who are bilingual from an early age don't tent to have an accent in either language. It is possible that Leliana learned only Orlesian as a child in which case the accent would have been natural when she learned Ferelden when much older.

[Akimb0]

Chas1024 wrote...

jon 45 wrote...
You don't seem to understand how accents when speaking foreign languages come about. It is not that everyone who is French, Spanish, German or Italian learned to speak English with a distinctive accent instead of learning the proper Queen's English, it is that despite the fact that they are trying quite hard to speak clear English their naturally acquired accent comes through. It requires some talent and training to overcome this, and even then people are bound to slip back into their native accent when not actively trying to sound differently.

I do understand that. My point was that Ferelden is not a foreign language to Leliana.  I assumed she learned it form her mother before or at the same time as she learned Orlesian. Cildren who are bilingual from an early age don't tent to have an accent in either language. It is possible that Leliana learned only Orlesian as a child in which case the accent would have been natural when she learned Ferelden when much older.

Let's try making it a little more obvious:

LELIANA WAS RAISED IN ORLAIS. 
HER 'MOTHER TONGUE' IS ORLESIAN.
THEREFORE HER ACCENT IS ORLESIAN.

Fereldan is a foreign language to Leliana, as she is from Orlais. Orlais is not Fereldan. Therefore Fereldan is a foreign language to her, regardless of whether she was brought up to be bilingual or not.

Children who are bilingual from an early age will still pick up the accent of where they're raised. They'd then speak both languages with the same accent. Since one of their languages would be their native language and would take presedence, even if they're bilingual.

Modifié par Akimb0, 27 janvier 2010 - 01:19 .

[jon 45]

Chas1024 wrote...

I do understand that. My point was that Ferelden is not a foreign language to Leliana.  I assumed she learned it form her mother before or at the same time as she learned Orlesian. Cildren who are bilingual from an early age don't tent to have an accent in either language. It is possible that Leliana learned only Orlesian as a child in which case the accent would have been natural when she learned Ferelden when much older.

Plenty (probably most) of bilingual children have an accent in one of their languages, particularly if they mostly or completely grew up in a single country. They may be able to speak their second language fluently, but native speakers will usually be able to tell from their accent where they grew up.

[Monica21]

Chas1024 wrote...

jon 45 wrote...
You don't seem to understand how accents when speaking foreign languages come about. It is not that everyone who is French, Spanish, German or Italian learned to speak English with a distinctive accent instead of learning the proper Queen's English, it is that despite the fact that they are trying quite hard to speak clear English their naturally acquired accent comes through. It requires some talent and training to overcome this, and even then people are bound to slip back into their native accent when not actively trying to sound differently.

I do understand that. My point was that Ferelden is not a foreign language to Leliana.  I assumed she learned it form her mother before or at the same time as she learned Orlesian. Cildren who are bilingual from an early age don't tent to have an accent in either language. It is possible that Leliana learned only Orlesian as a child in which case the accent would have been natural when she learned Ferelden when much older.

As has been pointed out to you, Leliana's mother died when she was very young. She even says that she has more memories of the woman her mother worked for than her own mother. Regardless, it's unlikely that Leliana, living in Orlais, would speak her mother's language except in private, and even then only at a very young age.

[Chas1024]

On a somewhat different note would a Ferelden find an Orlesian accent 'sexy' in the way that many English speaks seem to with a French accent?

[Monica21]

*sigh*

[Gipp3r]

Lelianas mother was Ferelden and Leliana was born in Ferelden.

When her mother died her mothers employee, Lady Cecile raised her, since her mother had worked for lady Cecile during the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.



she lived with Lady Cecile in Ferelden until the Occupation ended and then they both went to Orlais.



So presumably she had heard and maby even talked Orlesian from the very begining since her mother worked for a orlesian lady.

Or it she may indeed ha had an Ferelden Accent when she first came to Orlais and learned the language and since she has lived 20 some years in Orlais, her original Ferelden Accent has disappeared and she now speaks with a Orlesian Accent when speaking Ferelden

[Rolenka]

Chas1024 wrote...

Yes, she was born and grew up in Orlais but would have learned Ferelden from her Ferelden mother. She would have had no occasion to speak Ferelden with the Orlaisions and so pick up an accent. Her bard skills of blending in meant she was adept at affecting different accents. Her time in Lothering would have given her ample opportunity to acquire a local Feralden accent. The only reason to use an Orlaision accent would be to appear Orlaision, but why?

Foreign accents don't come from hearing them, they come from brain development.

If a person is raised only hearing and speaking french, their brain and oratory muscles become accustomed to making those sounds. If they learn english, they will have a french accent, period -- it takes years to overcome. Learning english from a person with a french accent has nothing to do with it.

Accents within a language (british, southern, midwestern, etc.) are easier to mimic and can in fact be picked up by accident if you live in that region long enough.

[Bathead]

From personal experience, one gains an accent from where you are raised, not from your parents. My entire family (Mom, Dad, Brother and me) were all born in Ireland. My parents had lived there most of their lives, until they moved to Canada when my brother was eight and I was one year old. About seven years later, we moved to the U.S. Right up until my parents passed a few years ago (Dad in 99, Mom in 2000) They had kept their accents, albeit somewhat ameliorated by then, right up to the end. Me and my brother however have no discernible accent other that American, even though we lived with our Irish accented parents all our lives. Our environment influenced our accents, NOT our parents.

[Bratt1204]

Chas1024 wrote...

Why does Leliana speak Feralden with an Orlaision accent? The accent must be an affectation but what purpose does it serve?

To me it sounds as if it is a combination of French and South African

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Why does Leliana speak with that atrocious accent?





Obviously, just to annoy me. Duh.

[Chas1024]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Why does Leliana speak with that atrocious accent?

Obviously, just to annoy me. Duh.

Perhaps she could just try poking you with a stick instead.

[KariTR]

My biggest gripe was finding out Duncan is Orlesian raised in Orlais but has no trace of an accent by the time we meet him.



I've commended him before, but the actor who took the voice of Riordan (a Fereldan brought up in Orlais) is, as far as I can tell, the only VA to have taken that into account when deciding how his character should sound.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Chas1024 wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Why does Leliana speak with that atrocious accent?

Obviously, just to annoy me. Duh.

Perhaps she could just try poking you with a stick instead.

Tease. If only it were possible...

[pepe5454]

Accents are not the same as language. You can learn both or some people can but they are different. An accent is more about how things roll off your tongue comfortably different languages and locals tend to stress certain parts of a word or pronounce it in a lazy fashion or give pitch allot of attention. You don't learn a language in an accent other than your own after hanging around with folks who speak the language all the time you might pickup that accent (after hanging out with friends from england long enough I start to talk with an english accent probably a horrid one without thinking about it) but generally your accent will be whatever accent you grew up with.

[KariTR]

pepe5454 wrote...

Accents are not the same as language. You can learn both or some people can but they are different. An accent is more about how things roll off your tongue comfortably different languages and locals tend to stress certain parts of a word or pronounce it in a lazy fashion or give pitch allot of attention. You don't learn a language in an accent other than your own after hanging around with folks who speak the language all the time you might pickup that accent (after hanging out with friends from england long enough I start to talk with an english accent probably a horrid one without thinking about it) but generally your accent will be whatever accent you grew up with.

Not exactly true. The biggest stumbling block to learning a new language can be the accent itself and the contrary is also true. It is a fact that British people generally learn German faster than other languages because the way the language is pronounced is very similar to English. It's also very easy to spot someone who has learned American English rather than British English even though they have visited neither country. Accents are very much integral when it comes to learning a language. Even someone who is word perfect in a second language, will never be understood by a native if they can't accent those words.

But even when we learn new accents, we still retain our original; we can be multi-accented as it were. As I said in a previous post, Riordan's voice actor exemplifies this wonderfully in his characterisation of how a Ferelden later raised and living in Orlais would sound. And for the NA poster of Irish descent, I would be very surprised if no one has ever commented on the "Irish" in his accent.

Modifié par KariTR, 27 janvier 2010 - 07:44 .

[Raphael diSanto]

Chas1024 wrote...

I get the point you and others have made it is just a different one to mine. Of couse children of foreign parents living in an english speaking culture speak english with the local accent not that of their parents. But this would apply to Leliana when she spoke Orlesian. She would have had no reason to speak Ferelden with the Orlesions she lived among. What I didn't get was how speaking Orlesian with Orlesians would give her an accent when speaking Ferelden given she had learned Ferelden at an early age from a native. But I understand from other posts in this thread that this can happen.

The point, my friend is that you are assuming she learned to speak perfect Fereldan with a native Fereldan accent from her mother. This is never stated as so.

She said she was very young. Do we know how young? Do we even know whether or not her mother talked to her in Ferelden? Maybe her mother only ever used Orlesian, since that would have been the language of the household that she lived in?

Did, in fact, Leliana -ever- speak a word of the Ferelden language (in a native Ferelden accent) before being taught it in an Orlesian school? And if so, how much?

Also, Leliana's accent, to me is very accurately half-french. For the person who asked "why does she sound like a pom?" a few posts back - I'm assuming, there, that you mean British person?

Ferelden accents are all varieties of British.

It's very clear, when listening to Leliana, that she is a person who's accent is halfway between French(Orlesian) and British (Ferelden) - For me, that is actually very indicative of someone who's spent time in both countries.

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 27 janvier 2010 - 07:54 .

[Xandurpein]

I live in Sweden. I was born in one part of Sweden that has a distinct speech pattern, but my family moved to another part of Sweden when I was about 4 years old. Since then my parents speech pattern has become a sort of mix of the old and the new, while I have virtually nothing left of the old dialect and couldn't try to imitate it even if I wanted. If I travel back to where I was born, I don't fall into that jargong at all. If I were to move there, I might eventually, but it would take a long time because now I'm an adault. You pick up language and speech pattern so much easier as a kid and you are influenced by a lot more than just your parents, especially as in the case of Leliana where she lost her parents all together when young.

[keesio74]

Chas1024 wrote...

Yes, she was born and grew up in Orlais but would have learned Ferelden from her Ferelden mother. She would have had no occasion to speak Ferelden with the Orlaisions and so pick up an accent.

Her mother died and the Orlaisian noble woman her mother was serving (Lady Cecile) took her in.

[Xandurpein]

keesio74 wrote...

Chas1024 wrote...

Yes, she was born and grew up in Orlais but would have learned Ferelden from her Ferelden mother. She would have had no occasion to speak Ferelden with the Orlaisions and so pick up an accent.

Her mother died and the Orlaisian noble woman her mother was serving (Lady Cecile) took her in.

Indeed. She grew up in Orlais, for most of the time she only spoke Orlesian. Orlesian became her first language. She only spoke Orlesian during formative years of her youth. She will then as an adault speak whatever language it is she speaks with an Orlesian accent, including Fereldan.

Very, very few people can keep more than one speech pattern and talk "like a native", not betraying the accent of their first language. Leliana smiply got a new "native" language that is all, and that is not very strange at all considering her circumstances.

[pepe5454]

KariTR wrote...

pepe5454 wrote...

Accents are not the same as language. You can learn both or some people can but they are different. An accent is more about how things roll off your tongue comfortably different languages and locals tend to stress certain parts of a word or pronounce it in a lazy fashion or give pitch allot of attention. You don't learn a language in an accent other than your own after hanging around with folks who speak the language all the time you might pickup that accent (after hanging out with friends from england long enough I start to talk with an english accent probably a horrid one without thinking about it) but generally your accent will be whatever accent you grew up with.

Not exactly true. The biggest stumbling block to learning a new language can be the accent itself and the contrary is also true. It is a fact that British people generally learn German faster than other languages because the way the language is pronounced is very similar to English. It's also very easy to spot someone who has learned American English rather than British English even though they have visited neither country. Accents are very much integral when it comes to learning a language. Even someone who is word perfect in a second language, will never be understood by a native if they can't accent those words.

But even when we learn new accents, we still retain our original; we can be multi-accented as it were. As I said in a previous post, Riordan's voice actor exemplifies this wonderfully in his characterisation of how a Ferelden later raised and living in Orlais would sound. And for the NA poster of Irish descent, I would be very surprised if no one has ever commented on the "Irish" in his accent.

I agree with what you are saying.  Some words in languages are the same but mean different things depending on the pitch or tone so it's very difficult toi pickup but I still would consider that learning the language.  You have to be able to force your tongue sometimes to do things its not used to doing learning a new language.  Accent I was more thinking of variances within the language like an australian speaking english vs an american speaking english.  They can say the same thing but the ozzy is going to kind of mumble parts of words and add pitch where the american would not or even the variance in the U.S. southern drawl vs a philly accent.  It is something you can pickup but you will probably still sound like you have an american accent to an australian even though you may sound like and australian to someone from the U.S.  Leli might actually be similar to this maybe to an orlesian she has a slight ferelden accent she may have picked up.

[SusanStoHelit]

pepe5454 wrote...

Accent I was more thinking of variances within the language like an australian speaking english vs an american speaking english.  They can say the same thing but the ozzy is going to kind of mumble parts of words and add pitch where the american would not or even the variance in the U.S. southern drawl vs a philly accent.  It is something you can pickup but you will probably still sound like you have an american accent to an australian even though you may sound like and australian to someone from the U.S.  Leli might actually be similar to this maybe to an orlesian she has a slight ferelden accent she may have picked up.

[Emphasis added by me.]

Firstly, it's Aussie (which is pronounced ozzy, rather than the way Americans generally mispronounce it, I'll give you that).

Secondly, we what? Mumble? Says who? You? C'mon give an Aussie a break.

[pepe5454]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

pepe5454 wrote...

Accent I was more thinking of variances within the language like an australian speaking english vs an american speaking english.  They can say the same thing but the ozzy is going to kind of mumble parts of words and add pitch where the american would not or even the variance in the U.S. southern drawl vs a philly accent.  It is something you can pickup but you will probably still sound like you have an american accent to an australian even though you may sound like and australian to someone from the U.S.  Leli might actually be similar to this maybe to an orlesian she has a slight ferelden accent she may have picked up.

[Emphasis added by me.]

Firstly, it's Aussie (which is pronounced ozzy, rather than the way Americans generally mispronounce it, I'll give you that).

Secondly, we what? Mumble? Says who? You? C'mon give an Aussie a break.

=P didn't mean that to sound insulting but when I asked an "Aussie" friend that had picked up a decent SoCal accent what the differences were that's how he described it.