434 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

 

The only similarity between the two is that both characters are arrogant. Morrigan's arrogance however, has not yet had fatal consequences. 

Eternal servitude to the will of Mythal not a fatal consequences?

Sure if you don't like freedom

[Aren]

In response to the OP, one is the daughter of an Elvhen Goddess

People keep insisting with the same thing

Flemeth isn't the original Mythal so Morrigan isn't the daughter of an Evanuris.

Mythal is a fragment an extra entity that can be separated from Flemeth and that is not FLemeth.

[Aren]

 

 

Morrigan is clearly the stronger mage, 

 

Morrigan had an edge in that he was taught by her mother who was possessed by Mythal herself. She also had access to wider forms of magic which allowed her to build on her knowledge step by step. 

 

In that context, I'd argue that Merrill did a great job with what she was working with. She just didn't account for Marethari's actions. Merrill knew what she was getting into and made precautions to protect herself, among them was also teaming up with Hawke and company. It's a testament in itself that despite using blood magic and dabbling in demon arts, Merrill never allowed those things to control her. She used them as tools for a greater goal, she recognized those tools as being dangerous and yet, she never let those tools control her in the end.

 

And as Inquisition shows, Merrill's efforts do pay off. Her eluvian is shown in the Crossroads if it's not destroyed in DA2.

 

That's amazing. Merrill created a working eluvian from scratch. She found a shard of an ancient magic mirror, restructured it into a full mirror and got it to work WITHOUT the demon's help.

 

"claps"

 

For all of her knowledge and power, my lady Morrigan has yet to top that.

Gameplay wise Morrigan wasn't the strong mage since in DAO the shapeshifting spec was far from being useful like the blood magic spec and the keeper spec possessed by Merrill.

 

Lore wise unless she doesn't gain the dragon from i don't think that she improved in battle since DAO.

 

Flemeth kept most things hidden from Morrigan,she didn't even gave to her the Grimoire or taught to her the elven language completely

 

Merril used blood magic also because she had no access to lyrium 

 

also i still don't understand what ritual she did to resurrect Flemeth or who instructed her with that magic,possibly FLemeth herself...Marethari seemed to know FLemeth.

[TEWR]

 

People keep insisting with the same thing

Flemeth isn't the original Mythal so Morrigan isn't the daughter of an Evanuris.

Mythal is a fragment an extra entity that can be separated from Flemeth and that is not FLemeth.

 

 

Not to mention Morrigan will point out to a Dalish Warden that she knows nothing about Elven culture, so it's not like Flemeth ever taught her that kind of stuff.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not to mention Morrigan will point out to a Dalish Warden that she knows nothing about Elven culture, so it's not like Flemeth ever taught her that kind of stuff.

Or Morrigan just lied and/or kept it secret. She tends to do that. 

[Han Shot First]

 

Eternal servitude to the will of Mythal not a fatal consequences?

Sure if you don't like freedom

 

 

It doesn't have fatal consequences. Who dies as a result of Morrigan drinking from the Well of Sorrows?

[dragonflight288]

As I keep saying it's not about being dangerous to Merrill. Let's use an another example. Let's say I am a brilliant scientist. I have a theory that I can design a cure for Ebola. To test it, I'll have to experiment with it. I take every possible precaution to avoid infecting myself, but no steps whatsoever to prevent or avoid it from escaping containment generally. Because of my lack of protocol, a lab assistant releases the strain, killing hundreds. I'm responsible. 

 

Every person who wants to absolve Merrill is seemingly obsessed with this idea that people are responsible for their own actions, but fundamental to responsibility is preventing foreseeable risks. Audacity having a Plan B - speaking to anyone else who isn't Merrill - isn't just foreseeable, it's self-evident. 

 

I don't think Merrill is wrong for trying to rebuild the Eluvian. I think she's an incompetent and irresponsible for being so careless about it.

 

There's just no possible explanation for this apart from reckless incompetence (or stupidity). Merrill wasn't prepared for any contingency, as is made obvious by the fact that she took 0 steps to prevent Audacity from trying to influence another mage. 

 

Up until Act 3, Merethari doesn't say once, not once, that she fears the demon. 

 

And Merethari knows about the demon, she was the one who declared it harmless so long as no one frees it, as we see in the short story, and then chose to remain under its sphere of influence, which grows stronger based upon proximity, which we also see with the short story. 

 

If anyone was in more danger of freeing Audacity, it's Merethari and not Merrill, and it was Merethari who did free him. 

 

Merrill made every contingency plan for all foreseeable outcomes, including her own possession and brought someone who has a history of killing abominations with her in the worst-case scenario. 

 

Before Act 3, Merethari's fear is that Merrill will bring back the darkspawn taint because the taint from the original eluvian in the ruins lost them two of their hunters. 

 

Merrill was able to cleanse the shard of the taint so it was no longer dangerous, as is proven by the fact that no one gets tainted or becomes ghouls in the alienage. And Merrill asked Merethari first to help her, which she refused, and Merrill outright states that if she had lyrium then she wouldn't have needed blood magic. 

 

We know from Trespasser and The Masked Empire that Merrill turned out to be right about the eluvians and Merethari wrong. 

 

It seems to me that by your logic that if we want to take into account those taking unnecessary risks, it is Merethari herself, and it is her decisions that endanger her clan. 

 

Merethari knew about the demon, its influence caused her to wake up in tears from her dreams in the short story, and it affected her badly the closer they got to the demon, and far more than it did Merrill. Merethari made the conscious decision to remain on Sundermount in an attempt to bring Merrill back into the clan despite living in the demon's range of influence. She decided to spread facts (as well as some false rumors) about Merrill to the clan, turning them against Merrill in the hope of having her come back....not sure how that works but that's the hope. Finally Merethari's reasons for opposing the eluvian changes from Act 2 to Act 3, and her stated reason she gives in Act 3 only is said after she herself is possessed, thus making her statements questionable in their authenticity. 

 

You are right that Merrill can not account for every outcome, otherwise she would've taken into account that the demon was influencing Merethari. But Merethari, as the guide of the clan as well as the magic expert, has a greater responsibility for the fate of herself and her clan than Merrill, a woman who willingly left her clan seven years prior. 

 

Merethari's responsibility is first and foremost her clan. Merrill even states she is surprised Merethari and the clan have not left. So, Merethari's failure to lead her clan away from Sundermount is actually the greater risk to the clan than the eluvian, something that Merethari ought to know because she also knows about the demon and how it affects her as per the short story. 

 

Following your logic about Merrill's failures, they apply far more to Merethari in her duty to her clan and her failure in that regard. 

[dragonflight288]

It doesn't have fatal consequences. Who dies as a result of Morrigan drinking from the Well of Sorrows?

 

At the time of making the decision, we know that there are consequences, and we know that there's a gaas if you have the magic aptitude, so you know that you will lose your free will if you do drink. You will be bound to the will of an otherwise unknown entity.

 

For all people know, or as Sera feels, you are putting yourself in the power of a demon.

[ModernAcademic]

Morrigan's mother was an elven goddess. She taught her daughter all about the Old Gods and the powers that needed to be preserved in Thedas. No doubt she also taught her about the eluvians.

[Andromelek]

Morrigan's mother was an elven goddess. She taught her daughter all about the Old Gods and the powers that needed to be preserved in Thedas. No doubt she also taught her about the eluvians.

She only carries what remains of an Elven Goddess, for what we saw of Kieran it could be possible that Flemeth didn't knew all that Mythal knew, besides, unlike Yavana (and likely her other daughters), Flemeth only taught Morrigan what she needed to know to perform her task, I mean, as I recall she had to steal a book in order to make the Eluvian work, she clearly lacks of a lot of knowledge and that often leads her to confuse stuff.

[dragonflight288]

Morrigan's mother was an elven goddess. She taught her daughter all about the Old Gods and the powers that needed to be preserved in Thedas. No doubt she also taught her about the eluvians.

.

No she didn't. 

 

Witch Hunt shows us Morrigan stole a book from the Dalish on eluvians (they couldn't read it themselves) and learned about them from that, and learned how to activate one. 

[TheJediSaint]

.

No she didn't. 

 

Witch Hunt shows us Morrigan stole a book from the Dalish on eluvians (they couldn't read it themselves) and learned about them from that, and learned how to activate one. 

TL:DR
 

Morrigan read the instruction manual.

[AedanStarfang]

Yes, yes she is which seems sad at first given that she is human and Merrill is an actual Dalish Elf. But when you realize who her mother really is, then it makes sense how & why Morrigan knows so much and is so efficient with ancient Elven lore. 

[Aren]

Or Morrigan just lied and/or kept it secret. She tends to do that.

I don't think she was lying considering the fact that her knowledge about elven history was as wrong as the Dalish tales in DAI.

[Han Shot First]

At the time of making the decision, we know that there are consequences, and we know that there's a gaas if you have the magic aptitude, so you know that you will lose your free will if you do drink. You will be bound to the will of an otherwise unknown entity.

 

For all people know, or as Sera feels, you are putting yourself in the power of a demon.

 

I thought Morrigan was foolish for drinking from the Fountain, but it isn't yet comparable to Merril's blunder. Merrill gets people killed. Thus far the only casualty of Morrigan's drinking from the well is her own free will, and even that isn't certain...it all depends on whether or not Mythal or Solas want to tug on those chains. Mythal/Flemeth seemed uninterested, although amused.

[ModernAcademic]

.

No she didn't. 

 

Witch Hunt shows us Morrigan stole a book from the Dalish on eluvians (they couldn't read it themselves) and learned about them from that, and learned how to activate one. 

 

And in Inquisition, we learn Flemeth taught her daughter all about the powers that need to be preserved in Thedas.

 

Hence Morrigan knew what to look for and where to look: elven lore.

[dragonflight288]

I thought Morrigan was foolish for drinking from the Fountain, but it isn't yet comparable to Merril's blunder. Merrill gets people killed. Thus far the only casualty of Morrigan's drinking from the well is her own free will, and even that isn't certain...it all depends on whether or not Mythal or Solas want to tug on those chains. Mythal/Flemeth seemed uninterested, although amused.

 

 

Wrong. Merethari gets people killed. The only person Merrill risks is herself and Hawke,and Hawke goes in knowing the risks. Merethari decided to knowingly get possessed without warning the clan and decided to poison the clan against Merrill over a fable due to her own fear and maternal instincts. 

[dragonflight288]

And in Inquisition, we learn Flemeth taught her daughter all about the powers that need to be preserved in Thedas.

 

Hence Morrigan knew what to look for and where to look: elven lore.

 

And her knowledge is just as inaccurate as what the Dalish have. And Flemeth's big reveal has Morrigan absolutely stunned. She had no idea. She only knew Flemeth wasn't human and taught her to respect that which is old.

 

Anyone with a brain would know that the ancient elven magical stuff would be the more advanced. Most of Teventer is based on it having stolen it from the fallen elven empire, so people would know that the ancient elves have power sources that need only be understood. 

 

Not that it matters in the end, I simply do not think Flemeth taught Morrigan all the old ways. It's more likely she got them from Flemeth's grimoire in Origins.

[Bardox9]

Wrong. Merethari gets people killed. The only person Merrill risks is herself and Hawke,and Hawke goes in knowing the risks. Merethari decided to knowingly get possessed without warning the clan and decided to poison the clan against Merrill over a fable due to her own fear and maternal instincts. 

I have to agree with this. What happens with Merrill's clan I blame entirely on Merethari. She knew the truth about the demon and said nothing. If she had been honest with Merrill, the entire affair may have been avoided. She's almost as bad as Orsino. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wrong. Merethari gets people killed. The only person Merrill risks is herself and Hawke,and Hawke goes in knowing the risks. Merethari decided to knowingly get possessed without warning the clan and decided to poison the clan against Merrill over a fable due to her own fear and maternal instincts. 

Rly? And what would happen if Hawke was killed by abomnation? She risked lives of others  so do Marethari but Marethari pretty much just took bullet for Merril, if Merril wasn't an idiot Marethari wouldn't need sacrifice herself. It is good she turned clan against Merril because Merril was an idiot that was dangerous to her surroundings (and would be to her clan) as she proved by dealing with demons despite being unable to resist temptation.

[sniper_arrow]

It's been a while since I played DA2, but when exactly did Marethari had the demon inside her? What this before Merrill found the shards or resorted to blood magic?

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's been a while since I played DA2, but when exactly did Marethari had the demon inside her? What this before Merrill found the shards or resorted to blood magic?

 

In Merril last quest in act 3, she allowed demon to possess her so demon didn't possess Merril when she tried make deal with it. Merril was lucky that Marethari saved her from her stupidity but on mine it wasn't wroth it even Fenris and Anders agreed on that.

[dragonflight288]

It's been a while since I played DA2, but when exactly did Marethari had the demon inside her? What this before Merrill found the shards or resorted to blood magic?

 

How it happens is like this. 

 

In Origins, Mahariel and Tamlen find the eluvian in the Brecilian Forest and get tainted by the darkspawn who already tainted it. If the Grey Warden is of the Dalish Origin, he becomes the Hero of Ferelden, if not then Mahariel and Tamlen both die. 

 

Merethari fears the eluvian and the darkspawn taint.

 

Merrill gets a shard and asks Merethari to help cleanse it of the taint itself using a magic that suppressed it in Mahariel and Merethari refuses. Merrill brings the shard with her to Sundermount where they encounter the demon. The first encounter occurs in a short story written that takes place before DA2. Merrill learns blood magic from the demon to giver her own magic enough power to cleanse the shard of the darkspawn taint. 

 

Merrill says in conversation with Hawke that if she had lyrium, she would've been able to use that instead of blood magic but she did not and Merethari refused to help cleanse the shard. 

 

In Act 2 after dealing with the varterral, Merethari admits that she's been telling the clan that she'll bring back the darkspawn taint that had taken two of the clans  hunters, Tamlen and Mahariel, and warns them that she is a blood mage now. 

 

Pol, being an Andrastian before joining the clan, takes the news a lot worse than everyone else does, and runs towards the varterral rather than talk to her. 

 

In Act 3, Merrill has finished constructing a brand new eluvian from scratch. From the words of the developers, she extrapolated what knowledge she could from the shard and studied as much elven lore as she could and started building an eluvian. She only lacked the knowledge on how to activate it. So she asks Hawke to come with her to Sundermount to talk to the demon who first taught her blood magic. 

 

When we arrive at Sundermount, we can choose to talk to Merethari before scaling the mountain. If we do, she'll rush ahead. I only learned of this on a subsequent playthrough as I didn't talk to her on my first playthrough. 

 

We get to the top and the statue that the demon is bound in and find the demon missing. Merethari appears and says she released the demon and allowed herself to become possessed because she feared the demon would use the eluvian to possess Merrill, and then tries to kill Merrill and Hawke. 

 

At this point, I find whatever Merethari says to be questionable because she is already possessed and its the demon talking. 

 

During the fight, the demon pretends Merethari is cured of being possessed, and if Hawke and the player falls for it, stabs Merrill and tries killing everyone again. 

 

We leave the cave and some of the clan's hunters are there. They pretty much hate Merrill at this point because of what Merethari has been telling them. They blame Merrill for Merethari's death and unless Hawke takes responsibility, the clan attacks and Merrill and Hawke are forced to defend themselves, and when the fighting is over the clan is killed. 

[Derrame]

yes, of course she is

[Andrew Lucas]

*sigh*
Bioware does not hate elves anymore than they hate casteless dwarves or apostates. Being persecuted in the game =/= being persecuted by the developers.

Don't let this die.