434 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePhoenixKing]

The problem with declaring one character smarter over the other is we really don't know by what means Morrigan managed to fix the Eluvian in the first place. With Merrill, we get a much better sense of the process behind it, but everything Morrigan did is pretty much handwaved, which is a shame, as there's a good story in there of her figuring out how to make it work.

[dragonflight288]

The problem with declaring one character smarter over the other is we really don't know by what means Morrigan managed to fix the Eluvian in the first place. With Merrill, we get a much better sense of the process behind it, but everything Morrigan did is pretty much handwaved, which is a shame, as there's a good story in there of her figuring out how to make it work.

 

I imagine she found a non-function, non-tainted one and had no idea how to activate it and so stole a book from the dalish that they couldn't read, and used that as research material to activate hers. 

 

Then she spent a decade studying the eluvian network and associated elven lore mixed with Flemeth's Grimoire. 

[ThePhoenixKing]

I imagine she found a non-function, non-tainted one and had no idea how to activate it and so stole a book from the dalish that they couldn't read, and used that as research material to activate hers. 

 

Then she spent a decade studying the eluvian network and associated elven lore mixed with Flemeth's Grimoire. 

 

Probably the best explanation we're going to get, but it's a shame Bioware couldn't be arsed to actually show it in-game. They really need to work on Show, Don't Tell for future installments.

[Han Shot First]

Wrong. Merethari gets people killed. The only person Merrill risks is herself and Hawke,and Hawke goes in knowing the risks. Merethari decided to knowingly get possessed without warning the clan and decided to poison the clan against Merrill over a fable due to her own fear and maternal instincts. 

 

Even if Marethari was the target (which isn't certain, the target may have been Merrill) the demon needed Merrill in order to get to Marethari. That makes Merrill the demon's catspaw.

 

You're allowing 'muh waifu!' to get in the way of an objective evaluation of the character. Merrill gets tricked by a demon, after being repeatedly warned that what she is doing is dangerous, and people die from it. How is she not responsible for that?

[Neon Rising Winter]

Even if Marethari was the target (which isn't certain, the target may have been Merrill) the demon needed Merrill in order to get to Marethari. That makes Merrill the demon's catspaw.
 
You're allowing 'muh waifu!' to get in the way of an objective evaluation of the character. Merrill gets tricked by a demon, after being repeatedly warned that what she is doing is dangerous, and people die from it. How is she not responsible for that?

The answer is there's insufficient information provided in game to decide what happened and you could sensibly tack either explanation, not to mention quite a few other ones, on the end of that plot line and have it make sense. Which of course means we can all argue for the one that fits our personal soapbox.

[Xilizhra]

Even if Marethari was the target (which isn't certain, the target may have been Merrill) the demon needed Merrill in order to get to Marethari. That makes Merrill the demon's catspaw.

 

You're allowing 'muh waifu!' to get in the way of an objective evaluation of the character. Merrill gets tricked by a demon, after being repeatedly warned that what she is doing is dangerous, and people die from it. How is she not responsible for that?

What you're doing, basically, is tantamount to charging a gun store owner for murder because the murderer stole a gun from him.

[The Hierophant]

What you're doing, basically, is tantamount to charging a gun store owner for murder because the murderer stole a gun from him.

Not really. It would be more comparable to some kid finding a double barreled shotty, and his mother repeatedly telling him that the gun is dangerous. Later he moves out of the neighborhood after she spreads rumours that he's some psycho killer. 6 years later the mother breaks into the son's home, and uses the shotty to commit suicide in an effort to show him that guns are dangerous.

 

But seriously, the demon's plan was to use her as bait to catch Marethari. Her only fault was her inability to think beyond herself in regards to the complexity of the demon's gambit, and Marethari's IQ dropping by double digits. Why Marethari didn't call Hawke for some help in killing the demon is beyond me, but that's Dragon Age 2's writing in a nutshell.

[dragonflight288]

Probably the best explanation we're going to get, but it's a shame Bioware couldn't be arsed to actually show it in-game. They really need to work on Show, Don't Tell for future installments.

 

I agree. Ah well, my theory is as good as any other. 

[dragonflight288]

Even if Marethari was the target (which isn't certain, the target may have been Merrill) the demon needed Merrill in order to get to Marethari. That makes Merrill the demon's catspaw.

 

You're allowing 'muh waifu!' to get in the way of an objective evaluation of the character. Merrill gets tricked by a demon, after being repeatedly warned that what she is doing is dangerous, and people die from it. How is she not responsible for that?

 

Needed Merrill to get to Merethari?

 

Umm? No offense but have you read the short story? They, in their camp on Sundermount, were in the demon's range of influence and it was affecting them in their sleep. Merethari was waking up in tears. 

 

It's likely that Audacity played on Merethari's love of Merrill and her pride as being the Keeper to want to protect Merrill at any cost, regardless of her actual knowledge of what an eluvian does. 

 

She, Merethari that is, was under the influence range of the demon for seven years. Merrill may have made a deal with him, and then kept him locked up, but was otherwise not in contact with the demon. And when she had no alternatives left, she brought along insurance to kill her should the worst happen when making contact again. 

 

I'm sure if Audacity could have gotten Merrill, he would've. I simply see it as far more likely that Merethari is the more likely candidate due to proximity, influence in the clan, and that Merethari was acting so stupidly such as making Merrill absolutely hated and mistrusted in the clan and then using that mistrust to invite her back in it and also completely changing her reasons for why she opposes the eluvian research between acts 2 and 3 without once giving any indication she was doing any research into them at all. 

 

Merrill was never once tricked by Audacity. She learned blood magic and then left him alone for seven years and lived in Kirkwall, well outside his range of influence. When she knew she had to see him again, she took precautions and knew there was a chance she would get possessed and brought a proven abomination killer with her in case things went fubar for her. 

 

Were there risks? Yes. Is Merrill completely innocent in what happens to her clan? Of course not. Merethari, as Keeper of the clan, as an adult, and a fully trained mage who first identified the demon as being bound and recognizes his influence, is more responsible for how things went down. I give Merethari 70-75% responsibility. She chose to free the demon without backup, she chose to spread lies about Merrill bringing back the darkspawn taint and chose to poison the clan against her and she failed in her responsibilities as Keeper because she was more concerned with playing mother. 

 

This is my opinion and I have yet to see a logical reason why I should hold Merrill more responsible than Merethari beyond "Merrill should've listened."

[ShadowLordXII]

Even if Marethari was the target (which isn't certain, the target may have been Merrill) the demon needed Merrill in order to get to Marethari. That makes Merrill the demon's catspaw.

 

You're allowing 'muh waifu!' to get in the way of an objective evaluation of the character. Merrill gets tricked by a demon, after being repeatedly warned that what she is doing is dangerous, and people die from it. How is she not responsible for that?

 

Because your objective analysis is ascribing blame to Merrill for something that someone else did of their own free will.

 

Merrill was only tricked once by the demon and she'd made careful and deliberate preparations for that eventuality. First off, she's been taking out demons left and right for the past 6 years, so she has plenty of practice with fending them off; Second, she has the assistance of an even stronger demon-killing champion and company to aid her if she needs help or kill her if she's possessed.

 

That sounds like a woman who knew what she was getting into and covered all of her bases.

 

Marethari on the other hand?

 

She allows her own fear and sense of self-righteousness to get the better of her. She refuses to let go of Merrill; she refuses to help Merrill; she causes the Sabre Clan to irrationally hate and fear Merrill; she refuses to leave Sundermount (a place filled with demons); and then refuses to leave the demon alone or for Merrill to deal with. She then gets herself possessed out of a misguided sense of martyrdom and her Clan is now either left leaderless or dead because of Marethari's stupidity.

 

Objectively, Marethari screwed up way more than Merrill did.

 

Merrill's only mistake was trusting Marethari to DO HER JOB AND ACTUALLY GUIDE/PROTECT HER PEOPLE.

[Han Shot First]

What you're doing, basically, is tantamount to charging a gun store owner for murder because the murderer stole a gun from him.

 

A better comparison for what Merrill did would be that gun store owner selling the gun to a wanted felon, who then uses it in a murder.

 

Merrill willingly entered into a pact with a demon. 

 

The demon didn't masquerade as a benign spirit. Merrill knew what it was, and played ball anyway. That makes her culpable.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Merrill's whole arc in Dragon Age 2 is an idiot plot. I'm serious, if Marethari just broke the damn mirror again and throw it's pieces into the Waking Sea when Merrill revealed she fixed it than none of Merrill's plot would have happened and Marethari would still be alive. Instead she decides to waste everyone's time by waiting for Merrill to see the error of ways like some ridiculous wise sage or something. It's made even waste by the fact that regardless of whether you had Merrill permanently fix the mirror or not nothing comes of it and Merrill apparently decides to forget about it and help some elves in Kirkwall by the time of Inquisition.

 

Ugh. It was stupid and was the second most face-palming thing in Dragon Age 2.

[dragonflight288]

Merrill's whole arc in Dragon Age 2 is an idiot plot. I'm serious, if Marethari just broke the damn mirror again and throw it's pieces into the Waking Sea when Merrill revealed she fixed it than none of Merrill's plot would have happened and Marethari would still be alive. Instead she decides to waste everyone's time by waiting for Merrill to see the error of ways like some ridiculous wise sage or something. It's made even waste by the fact that regardless of whether you had Merrill permanently fix the mirror or not nothing comes of it and Merrill apparently decides to forget about it and help some elves in Kirkwall by the time of Inquisition.

 

Ugh. It was stupid and was the second most face-palming thing in Dragon Age 2.

 

She didn't fix it, she built a new one according to the devs. 

[Xilizhra]

A better comparison for what Merrill did would be that gun store owner selling the gun to a wanted felon, who then uses it in a murder.

 

Merrill willingly entered into a pact with a demon. 

 

The demon didn't masquerade as a benign spirit. Merrill knew what it was, and played ball anyway. That makes her culpable.

Wanted felon who's managed to erase said information from a background check. Merrill took all reasonable precautions; it was Marethari who screwed up.

[Vit246]

The problem is the narrative. It tries to hammer into your face that everything is Merrill's fault and prevent you from thinking critically.

Ooooh, Merrill made a deal with with a demon for blood magic! Thats baaad! But wait....that was 7 years ago and it doesn't look like she ever had to give anything in exchange....

Merrill wants to fix the Eluvian but Marethari says thats baaad because demons! Therefore Merrill is wrong! But wait....what the bloody hell does Marethari know about the Eluvian? Merrill's the one who's been studying it for years and she's still not possessed....

Marethari released and took the demon into herself! Its Merrill's fault! But wait....Marethari released the demon from its functional prison and took it into herself....

FYI, the Warden can make a deal with the Redcliffe Demon and basically extort a freebie out out it in exchange for sparing its life, which it already has, so basically you can extort or trick a demon for a freebie.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wanted felon who's managed to erase said information from a background check. Merrill took all reasonable precautions; it was Marethari who screwed up.

Her only precaution was Hawke that could have been kiled by demon.Only thing Marethari did is taking bullet that was for Merril.

 

 

The problem is the narrative. It tries to hammer into your face that everything is Merrill's fault and prevent you from thinking critically.

Ooooh, Merrill made a deal with with a demon for blood magic! Thats baaad! But wait....that was 7 years ago and it doesn't look like she ever had to give anything in exchange....

Merrill wants to fix the Eluvian but Marethari says thats baaad because demons! Therefore Merrill is wrong! But wait....what the bloody hell does Marethari know about the Eluvian? Merrill's the one who's been studying it for years and she's still not possessed....

Marethari released and took the demon into herself! Its Merrill's fault! But wait....Marethari released the demon from its functional prison and took it into herself....

FYI, the Warden can make a deal with the Redcliffe Demon and basically extort a freebie out out it in exchange for sparing its life, which it already has, so basically you can extort or trick a demon for a freebie.

 

It was her fault her stupidity lead to this despite everyone telling her to not play with demons, hell she even proved she couldn't resist demon temptation and yet tried to toy with demon anyway.

She would be possessed if exposed to demon (as she proved once she was) but she wasn't as she never succeed with mirror.   

Marethari realsed demon and took demon to protect Merrill from her stupidity pretty much taking bullet that would go for Merrill.

 

The warden could intimidate demon only if the warden was a master of persuasion and because had upper hand over demon , Merrill is and idiot that fails recognize very simple trickery if you think she would be capable to trick creatures that are masters of manipulation i can respond only with that.

[ModernAcademic]

Merrill willingly entered into a pact with a demon. 

 

The demon didn't masquerade as a benign spirit. Merrill knew what it was, and played ball anyway. That makes her culpable.

 

After saving that spirit of wisdom from being forever a pride demon - All New, Faded For Her -, I can't help but wonder: was that demon behind the eluvian a spirit once?

 

Could it have been a spirit like the ancient Librarians in the great library of Arlathan, the one we visit in Trespasser? One of the Archivists warn us they were once benign spirits of wisdom. After the Veil was created, though, they became demons of fear. But some of the Archivists remained true to their nature,meaning not all spirits were lost to the destruction.

 

If there was a spirit behind the eluvian once, then there was a chance it knew something about the Dales or Arlathan. But the spirit somehow became corrupt and turned into a demon.

 

I think this is important because Merrill is often portrayed as stupid, because "she's a mage and is supposed to know she has to keep her distance from demons". She's become a scapegoat. People throw stones at her without a second thought. Maybe things are not that simple. Was she wrong in trying to contact the demon?Yes. But it's not all down to "mage elf is stupid and won't learn". 

[TheKomandorShepard]

After saving that spirit of wisdom from being forever a pride demon - All New, Faded For Her -, I can't help but wonder: was that demon behind the eluvian a spirit once?

 

Could it have been a spirit like the ancient Librarians in the great library of Arlathan, the one we visit in Trespasser? One of the Archivists warn us they were once benign spirits of wisdom. After the Veil was created, though, they became demons of fear. But some of the Archivists remained true to their nature,meaning not all spirits were lost to the destruction.

 

If there was a spirit behind the eluvian once, then there was a chance it knew something about the Dales or Arlathan. But the spirit somehow became corrupt and turned into a demon.

 

I think this is important because Merrill is often portrayed as stupid, because "she's a mage and is supposed to know she has to keep her distance from demons". She's become a scapegoat. People throw stones at her without a second thought. Maybe things are not that simple. Was she wrong in trying to contact the demon?Yes. But it's not all down to "mage elf is stupid and won't learn". 

It doesn't matter what it was , what does matter what it is.It doesn't matter what lake was once , what matters that it is frozen and playing around it despite being warned is plain stupidity. 

 

I had plenty of thought , it is just pure stupidity , it is like dating criminal and obviously dangerous person and being told exactly that by everyone , but stomping with your feet like a little child that you know better and then end crying "i didn't know" because it went poorly despite it was obvious.

[Cyberpunk]

We don't know how damaged Merrill's eluvian was compared to Morrigan's. But it is clear from the lore that Morrigan is far more powerful than Merrill even with Merrill's blood magic. 

[jlb524]

We don't know how damaged Merrill's eluvian was compared to Morrigan's. But it is clear from the lore that Morrigan is far more powerful than Merrill even with Merrill's blood magic. 

 

Morrigan's wasn't damaged at all.   She just needed the passwords for them.  She was also guided along that path the whole time by her 'is really an ancient elven god' mother.  Merrill started with a shard and very little information to go on.   It's hard to compare the two situations.

[fhs33721]

We don't know how damaged Merrill's eluvian was compared to Morrigan's. But it is clear from the lore that Morrigan is far more powerful than Merrill even with Merrill's blood magic. 

Merrill as far as I'm ware started her own Eluvian with nothing but a single shard. No idea about Morrigans.

[fhs33721]

Merrill willingly entered into a pact with a demon. 

 

The demon didn't masquerade as a benign spirit. Merrill knew what it was, and played ball anyway. That makes her culpable.

Yes, and that pact was 7 years ago (during act 3) and was actually one of the rare examples of an pact with an demon that didn't backfire in horrible ways. Wheter that was pure dumb luck or Merrill actually is just that good is debateable I guess.

 

Now morally it still was a highly questionable move, but I fail to see how it makes Merrill culpable in Maretharis own infinitely less smart dealings with Audacity later.

[German Soldier]

-Why the eluvian wasn't tainted in the mother lair is beyond me.

-Why the password was in a book is beyond me.

-How Morrigan knew that the password was in that book is beyond me.

-How Morrigan knew that the Dalish had that book is beyond me....

-Why the warden didn't saw the magical vortex(they popped up only in WH)  in cadash taigh during the Shale quest in DAO is beyond me...

-why the warden was forced to pursue Morrigan is beyond me...

 

Yeah WH don't make much sense....It was wrote mostly for the romance ending which is sad..

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

-Why the eluvian wasn't tainted in the mother lair is beyond me.

-Why the password was in a book is beyond me.

-How Morrigan knew that the password was in that book is beyond me.

-How Morrigan knew that the Dalish had that book is beyond me....

-Why the warden didn't saw the magical vortex(they popped up only in WH)  in cadash taigh during the Shale quest in DAO is beyond me...

-why the warden was forced to pursue Morrigan is beyond me...

 

Yeah WH don't make much sense....It was wrote mostly for the romance ending which is sad..

 

 

1.If i recall we don't know how exactly Eluvian got tainted, being in close proximity to darkspawn may not be enough to do the job just like in case of lyrium.

2.Book was an ancient elven tome, considering that elven culture was last to use Eluvians it makes sense.

3-4. Aside from that she was raised by Felemeth who could told her, there is 2 years gap between dao ending and witch hunt when she could just learn about book when she was searching info about Eluvians among dalish.

5.That was actually explained by Finn, in order to see them spell was required.

6.You have plenty of reasons given in wh that range from personal to investigation.

[jlb524]

 

-Why the eluvian wasn't tainted in the mother lair is beyond me.

-Why the password was in a book is beyond me.

-How Morrigan knew that the password was in that book is beyond me.

-How Morrigan knew that the Dalish had that book is beyond me....

-Why the warden didn't saw the magical vortex(they popped up only in WH)  in cadash taigh during the Shale quest in DAO is beyond me...

-why the warden was forced to pursue Morrigan is beyond me...

 

Yeah WH don't make much sense....It was wrote mostly for the romance ending which is sad..

 

 

The book itself could have been the 'key' to the eluvian.  I guess Morrigan would still be lucky it even existed and knew which clan had it.

 

But yeah, WH was mainly just ending that romance.