434 réponses à ce sujet

[Bardox9]

The book itself could have been the 'key' to the eluvian.  I guess Morrigan would still be lucky it even existed and knew which clan had it.

 

But yeah, WH was mainly just ending that romance.

Ending or continuing depending on how you went about doing things. 

 

The main difference in how Morrigan was able to repair her Eluvian and Merrill failed to do so with hers, simply breaks down to the sources of their information. Morrigan trained and taught by Flemeth in the mystic art and all things arcane and an ancient book detailing the Eluvians and presumably how they were operated. While her knowledge of the mirrors may have been limited, she knew enough to know that they would carry her to a place where extremely few people could follow AND where to go to get more information about the mirrors.

 

Merrill had a Keeper that would routinely withhold vitally important information and the only other information source she had was a demon that only wanted her to know enough to break it free from it's cage. Is it any wonder that Merrill did not succeed? Had story played out differently and her Keeper not released the demon early, I think that Merrill's Eluvian would have worked. Not the way she wanted it to, but it would have opened a portal to that demon's prison.

 

In my opinion, there is nothing Morrigan can do that Merrill couldn't do with the proper instruction and practice. Mages are only as good as what they know.

[dragonflight288]

Ending or continuing depending on how you went about doing things. 

 

The main difference in how Morrigan was able to repair her Eluvian and Merrill failed to do so with hers, simply breaks down to the sources of their information. Morrigan trained and taught by Flemeth in the mystic art and all things arcane and an ancient book detailing the Eluvians and presumably how they were operated. While her knowledge of the mirrors may have been limited, she knew enough to know that they would carry her to a place where extremely few people could follow AND where to go to get more information about the mirrors.

 

Merrill had a Keeper that would routinely withhold vitally important information and the only other information source she had was a demon that only wanted her to know enough to break it free from it's cage. Is it any wonder that Merrill did not succeed? Had story played out differently and her Keeper not released the demon early, I think that Merrill's Eluvian would have worked. Not the way she wanted it to, but it would have opened a portal to that demon's prison.

 

In my opinion, there is nothing Morrigan can do that Merrill couldn't do with the proper instruction and practice. Mages are only as good as what they know.

 

Mostly true, but I disagree with only one thing. 

 

We don't know for sure that Merrill's eluvian would have opened a portal to a statue inhabited by a demon sundered from the Fade for centuries. The only source of that information is the demon itself after it had already possessed Merethari. During the fight with Audacity the demon tries to trick us into thinking Merethari has been freed, and if we fall for it then she stabs Merrill. 

 

I find everything that is said AFTER Merethari is possessed to be entirely questionable and can't be taken as objective fact, especially since the stated reason for opposing the eluvian at this point is completely different from the stated reason to oppose it was in Act 2. 

[German Soldier]

1.If i recall we don't know how exactly Eluvian got tainted, being in close proximity to darkspawn may not be enough to do the job just like in case of lyrium.

2.Book was an ancient elven tome, considering that elven culture was last to use Eluvians it makes sense.

3-4. Aside from that she was raised by Felemeth who could told her, there is 2 years gap between dao ending and witch hunt when she could just learn about book when she was searching info about Eluvians among dalish.

5.That was actually explained by Finn, in order to see them spell was required.

6.You have plenty of reasons given in wh that range from personal to investigation.

Its been a long since i didn't read your post  glad you're back

 

for point 5 i did not meant the light of Arlathan i meant the vortex you need to use to discover them,Finn just use his magic to reveal the lights.

the vortex have always been there,they appear because the statue said so even if you did already visited that place with Shale and they were not there...

 

for point 6 is personal it depend on the warden if they don't want to have anything to do with the GW buisness anymore they wouldn't have cared at all to find answers.

[German Soldier]

The book itself could have been the 'key' to the eluvian.  I guess Morrigan would still be lucky it even existed and knew which clan had it.

 

But yeah, WH was mainly just ending that romance.

This is what i meant, each Eluvian have a different key and she knew that the specific key for that specific eluvian was  that specific book of that particular clan.......and even got lucky that the mirror wasn't tainted in the mother lair...one of the most infested place in Thedas

[TheKomandorShepard]

Its been a long since i didn't read your post  glad you're back

 

for point 5 i did not meant the light of Arlathan i meant the vortex you need to use to discover them,Finn just use his magic to reveal the lights.

the vortex have always been there,they appear because the statue said so even if you did already visited that place with Shale and they were not there...

 

for point 6 is personal it depend on the warden if they don't want to have anything to do with the GW buisness anymore they wouldn't have cared at all to find answers.

 

Yes, but Finn spell reveals vortices of magic, he says that here. , that is why you didn't see them during Shale quest.

 

Canon throws away option of not wanting anything to do with GW business, regardless of your wardens stance on that topic until they vanish they remain Warden Commander.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

Canon throws away option of not wanting anything to do with GW business, regardless of your wardens stance on that topic until they vanish they remain Warden Commander.

This happen since DAA and i think is stupid for the narrative to force a character to do what they don't want to do anymore after they completed their task,in this case i would have liked an option to create the Orlesian warden even for a non-dead HoF.

 

As for WH i cannot stomach that Dlc anymore because is a feast of plot armor and cannot fathom how the warden can fail in eliminate someone from such small distances(especially for a HoF spec assassin).... what an unbelievable scenario

[German Soldier]

This happen since DAA and i think is stupid for the narrative to force a character to do what they don't want to do anymore after they completed their task,in this case i would have liked an option to create the Orlesian warden even for a non-dead HoF.

 

As for WH i cannot stomach that Dlc anymore because is a feast of plot armor and cannot fathom how the warden can fail in eliminate someone from such small distances(especially for a HoF spec assassin).... what an unbelievable scenario

Sten and Morrigan were the only npc of DAO covered by plot armor their survival is just an insane narrative loop  without much sense.

i think that in order to avoid this nosense Bioware should not have  released this Dlc which was done solely for the romance or DR route.

[Seraphim24]

Wow this is an old thread but yes

[Akiza]

This happen since DAA and i think is stupid for the narrative to force a character to do what they don't want to do anymore after they completed their task,in this case i would have liked an option to create the Orlesian warden even for a non-dead HoF.

 

I can see the HoF wanting to meet Morrigan in WH if they refused the ritual t because they considered her a threat worth to be killed for her attmept at interfering with the archdemon's death(but well ehm plot armor).

Then again the warden could have just sent letters to the first warden and inform him of everything then other wardens would have probably take care of the issue but apparently the only one who know about the whole thing is the HoF because Bioware forced this,they never told this to the order which is something out of character for my devoted warden who would have informed the wardens immediatly.

[Andromelek]

Sten and Morrigan were the only npc of DAO covered by plot armor their survival is just an insane narrative loop  without much sense.
i think that in order to avoid this nosense Bioware should not have  released this Dlc which was done solely for the romance or DR route.

Huh? You are forgetting Leliana aren't you?

[German Soldier]

Huh? You are forgetting Leliana aren't you?

No i consider her dead,whatever mental gymnastic they did to propose her  they said she was a doppelganger spirit not even the original.

I know that is ridiculous but at least the original is "dead",Oghren is far worse than Leliana because he actually is completly resurrected in DAA

[Heimerdinger]

Sten and Morrigan were the only npc of DAO covered by plot armor their survival is just an insane narrative loop  without much sense.

i think that in order to avoid this nosense Bioware should not have  released this Dlc which was done solely for the romance or DR route.

 

Sten can die if he is left in the cage at Lothering. As for Morrigan, she still has a part to play in this story, the overall story that spans the series - the Elven Gods, the Taint, the Fade and Black city, whatever plan Solas has etc. This is kind of obvious to anyone who is paying attention, she is the daughter of someone who carries the essence of Mythal's soul, and has knowledge in the field of ancient elvhen (more than say, the average circle mage). The story is going in that direction, a showdown between Solas+Mythal and the Evanuris, Morrigan will be the bridge that connects the player to all that. Killing her off because some fans don't like her or simply because they can, now that would be bad writing.

[German Soldier]

Sten can die if he is left in the cage at Lothering. 

Sten don't die regardless of what you do

Bioware have decided to put him in position of Arishok(yes even if you did not kill the Arishok of DAII and left him in the cage)

They never explained how she escaped,maybe she was freed by someone else for pity.

 

As for Morrigan, she still has a part to play in this story, the overall story that spans the series - the Elven Gods, the Taint, the Fade and Black city, whatever plan Solas has etc. This is kind of obvious to anyone who is paying attention, she is the daughter of someone who carries the essence of Mythal's soul, and has knowledge in the field of ancient elvhen (more than say, the average circle mage). The story is going in that direction, a showdown between Solas+Mythal and the Evanuris, Morrigan will be the bridge that connects the player to all that. Killing her off because some fans don't like her or simply because they can, now that would be bad writing.

I know that the only reason Morrigan was able to survive both WH and the Red lyrium dragon were plot armors made to reuse her in the future for the lore.I'm thinking that Bioware is doing it wrong however since this series does not need her(or the others old DAO npc),FLemeth has 4 daughters and reuse the same people over and over again it make the world feel small.

I think bad writing is to force her on the players regardless of their choice,see DAI they forced her on every player for no reason when she was not necessary for the plot they  gave you the Dread wolf  as companion that was more than enough to neutralize Morrigan usefulness.

[Ieldra]

Sten can die if he is left in the cage at Lothering. As for Morrigan, she still has a part to play in this story, the overall story that spans the series - the Elven Gods, the Taint, the Fade and Black city, whatever plan Solas has etc. This is kind of obvious to anyone who is paying attention, she is the daughter of someone who carries the essence of Mythal's soul, and has knowledge in the field of ancient elvhen (more than say, the average circle mage). The story is going in that direction, a showdown between Solas+Mythal and the Evanuris, Morrigan will be the bridge that connects the player to all that. Killing her off because some fans don't like her or simply because they can, now that would be bad writing.

Indeed so. She's part of the bigger plot at this point and a replacement would feel artificial. Also, given that almost no one is indifferent to her, she's one of the DA team's most successful creations. Removing her would be a waste.

BTW, I wonder why it is always so predictable which kind of people dislike her and not.

[German Soldier]

Indeed so. She's part of the bigger plot at this point and a replacement would feel artificial. Also, given that almost no one is indifferent to her, she's one of the DA team's most successful creations. Removing her would be a waste.

BTW, I wonder why it is always so predictable which kind of people dislike her and not.

I think you're just biased toward Morrigan

What does even mean to predict people based on your own guesses over a videogame npc?

I surely think she was irrelevant both in DAO and in DAI,in the former because you can dismiss her since Lothering with no problems,in the latter because  there was Fen Harel as magical advisor.

[Fredward]

This isn't really on topic but doesn't Merrill seem like exactly the kind of elf that'd join Solas?

 

On topic; yes. As someone waaay at the start of this thread mentioned one of these people was raised by an elven god and the other wasn't. It's not even really a fair comparison. The devs also clearly have pretty big plans for Morrigan going forward (assuming datamined info is accurate and there's no reason to think it isn't), she's just more embedded in the lore. Being more generally impressive often goes with that.

[Lunatica]

 (assuming datamined info is accurate and there's no reason to think it isn't)

 

That last sentence is a good one to remember, particular when it comes to info gleaned from embedded notes which are a) often legacy, and   not part of the actual text (they're written as context for the actors, but not necessarily always true). So they may be true or have been true/partially true at some point...just don't rely on them to be canonical (if you are).

 

[Ieldra]

I think you're just biased toward Morrigan.

And you are biased against her. So what? Everyone is biased, in everything where they have a strong opinion. Apart from that, I understand that a certain type of mentality is opposed to hers, which is cause for dislike, but claiming that she's irrelevant in DAO is ricidulous, given the impact of the DR. In DAI she's not essential to the main plot, but she shares that with many other characters I don't see you complaining about, so that really can't be the reason for your dislike. Meanwhile, she was our connection to the eluvians, which played a big part in Trespasser, and a source of knowledge unknown to the magical establishment. Lastly, she's one of the characters who connect the different chapters of DA. So, hardly unimportant, don't you think? It's not that all that had to be given to her in order to make her appearance in DAI plausible, it was all naturally built on what was previously established about her.

[German Soldier]

And you are biased against her. So what? Everyone is biased, in everything where they have a strong opinion. Apart from that, I understand that a certain type of mentality is opposed to hers, which is cause for dislike

 

That's a rather emotive response.

Believe me or not i predicted you would have quoted me because i cheked that response as to be very biased and if your post was rather emotive it means that there is some kind of truth in what i said.On the other hand how you can claim that i'm biased?

All my discussion that involved Morrigan were  judgments on the the costant reuse of the characters(Game issue) and her flaws in terms of

strategies/advices she made in DAO which are a truth not a bias,i was never interested in her personality nor i have any "strong opinion"

 claiming that she's irrelevant in DAO is ricidulous, given the impact of the DR. 

 

She is irrelevant and is not a ridiculous claim the DR can be rejected without no problems and the subplot doesn't exist in DAI so again what impact?

The DR-state nullification?That's not an impact....you can claim she is relevant  but she isn't because the DAO plot line does not rely on her for it's story

 

 

 In DAI she's not essential to the main plot, but she shares that with many other characters I don't see you complaining about

 

I disliked a lot every reused character of DAO in fact each of them don't have any reason to stay in DAI(aside from  Leliana in her role and Cullen),that you didn't saw me complain about them because this is a Morrigan/Merril thread  doesn't mean i did not gave to the others the same judgments.In fact Leliana   is worse than Morrigan in this.

 Meanwhile, she was our connection to the eluvians, which played a big part in Trespasser, and a source of knowledge unknown to the magical establishment. Lastly, she's one of the characters who connect the different chapters of DA. So, hardly unimportant, don't you think? It's not that all that had to be given to her in order to make her appearance in DAI plausible, it was all naturally built on what was previously established about her.

 

There was no need to introduce the eluvians with Morrigan(tbh they were introduced in the Dalish Origin)  Wh was a dlc that didn't made much sense and in DAI  Solas could have introduced us to the eluvians.

What she is connecting exactly and for what purpose?

She wasn't in DAII,she wasn't necessary in DAI and she wasn't relevant in terms of story in DAO

i think at this point that she was brought back to appease a portion of the fan base otherwise i can't explain why they brought her back in DAI for no reason given that there is no need of her in the plot.

[Ieldra]

All my discussion that involved Morrigan were  judgments on the the costant reuse of the characters(Game issue) and her flaws in terms of strategies/advices she made in DAO which are a truth not a bias,i was never interested in her personality nor i have any "strong opinion"

You are uncommonly persistent for someone who hasn't got a strong opinion. Apart from that, why are recurring characters a problem? This is a story of several volumes, recurring characters are required to hold it together.

Also, that a character has flaws is no reason to throw them out. In fact, I don't want perfect characters in my stories because they're boring. Really, you don't have an argument here.

Yes, characters do return, including Morrigan, and yes, Morrigan is not flawless. That is quite obviously true. Why do you have a problem with that? I find both aspects desirable. The arguments for including her rather than replacing her with someone else to fulfil roles she's naturally suited for have considerable weight, but they fall on deaf ears because you're predisposed against those two things. You did not present a single argument as to *why* recurring characters are bad, and why they should not be allowed to have flaws.

Lastly, almost no characters are "necessary". Almost every character could be replaced if you want that. The question is: why should they?

[TheKomandorShepard]

You are uncommonly persistent for someone who hasn't got a strong opinion. Apart from that, why are recurring characters a problem? This is a story of several volumes, recurring characters are required to hold it together.

Also, that a character has flaws is no reason to throw them out. In fact, I don't want perfect characters in my stories because they're boring. Really, you don't have an argument here.

Yes, characters do return, including Morrigan, and yes, Morrigan is not flawless. That is quite obviously true. Why do you have a problem with that? I find both aspects desirable. The arguments for including her rather than replacing her with someone else to fulfil roles she's naturally suited for have considerable weight, but they fall on deaf ears because you're predisposed against those two things. You did not present a single argument as to *why* recurring characters are bad, and why they should not be allowed to have flaws.

Lastly, almost no characters are "necessary". Almost every character could be replaced if you want that. The question is: why should they?

 

Reoccurring characters are good if used properly, throwing left and right reoccurring characters with no reason when every game jumps not only to different protagonist but also different region is silly especially if they constantly throw resurrection card.Doing such things not only make setting look unbelievable and small, but also undermines choices made by player or straight away strips us of freedom to deal with characters so they can bring character back in next games.

 

In Dragon age there is no reason to use reoccurring characters to hold story together because dragon age isn't personal story only supposedly be about Thedas not small group of people.

[sniper_arrow]

This isn't really on topic but doesn't Merrill seem like exactly the kind of elf that'd join Solas?

 

That's why I'd imagine Varric not telling her the whole story or make sure she doesn't leave Kirkwall.

[Alaric]

Bioware hates elves so they write elves as incompetent, selfish and arrogant. That is all. At this point, in the next game, I expect all elves in Thedas to wear diapers or else they'll poop themselves because they can't do anything right.

 

It's getting old. Especially since we all know from real life that humans are the ones who are incompetent, selfish and arrogant. But I guess that's a little too close to home for Bioware.

 

With the end of Trespasser and the actions of Briala and her agents, I think the Elves are starting upon a path that will find them some sort of redemption for the future of Thedas. (Or more oppression and destruction due to the inevitable and/or potential thwarting of the Dread Wolf's plans.)

 

Bioware is well aware of Humans be selfishing and war-mongering. We need only take a look at the Tevinter Magisters that attempted to reach the Golden City, only to corrupt it and release the Blight upon the denizens of Thedas; which had lead to five cataclysmic events already that have threatened the end all life. Humans are also depicted as xenophobic and incredibly cruel toward Elves. (Suspicious and fearful of Qunari.) - Each of the sentient races of Thedas have had their bad points. Minus the Dwarves.. they're stuck in their ways, but I can't recall off of the top of my head a series of events that have personally harmed Thedas due to their own doing.

-

Back on Topic.
Morrigan, or at least in my World State, had Flemeth's Grimoire and as many others have already pointed out, Flemeth (possessed by an Elven Goddess) as a Mother. The amount of forbiddon lore and magic that Morrigan may have known by the age of ten would probably have been more than a Grand Enchanter would learn of within an entire lifetime.

 

Merrill was really on her own and had a demon breathing down her neck the entire time; yet she did it for the good of her people as a whole. Morrigan did it for herself; although you could argue that her ulterior motives were also for the greater good.

[sniper_arrow]

Sten can die if he is left in the cage at Lothering. 

 

That remains to be seen if DA4 will focus on the Tevinter-Qunari war.

[ThePhoenixKing]

This isn't really on topic but doesn't Merrill seem like exactly the kind of elf that'd join Solas?

 

Think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but honesty? I don't see it. The Merrill we see at the beginning of DA2, perhaps, but between the character growth she goes through over the course of the game (on both Friendship and Rivalry paths), the various connections she makes with non-elves, and her own compassionate and open-minded nature, I sincerely doubt she'd throw her lot in with a guy who's willing to make a Daemon World if it gets him what he wants. There's simply no way she'd be that cruel, and after everything that happened with Marethari, she'd certainly never walk into a situation like that blindly.