434 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

Marethari never claimed Merrill was going to intentionally set Audacity free; she said that Audacity would escape through the Eluvian, which doesn't seem possible since the spirit was trapped in a totem in the real world. Merrill also tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of setting Audacity free from the totem. I suppose you could argue she could have gotten possessed by abomination Marethari.

 

Yeah I find this pretty interesting. Are we meant to conclude that Marethari was completely misguided about the threat of the Eluvian? Obviously it doesn't seem to have much of a connection to the Fade and the threat of Audacity freeing itself through the Eluvian seems implausible (to me at least).

Not saying the Eluvian isn't dangerous now that Solas controls the network but Marethari's rationale seems way off.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah I find this pretty interesting. Are we meant to conclude that Marethari was completely misguided about the threat of the Eluvian? Obviously it doesn't seem to have much of a connection to the Fade and the threat of Audacity freeing itself through the Eluvian seems implausible (to me at least).

Not saying the Eluvian isn't dangerous now that Solas controls the network but Marethari's rationale seems way off.

 

Doubtful, Merril was just a fool that didn't know what she was doing, she proved that a lot.Demons are capable of mind control what Merril proved to be unable to resist, aside just from being master manipulators.Fact that she even took Hawke makes possibility of possession very real.

 

On Eluvian Merril was a reckless fool as well, mirror "killed" her friend or two and she had no way of knowing what is behind mirror yet she was toying with it in the middle of the city endangering it.

[LobselVith8]

Yeah I find this pretty interesting. Are we meant to conclude that Marethari was completely misguided about the threat of the Eluvian? Obviously it doesn't seem to have much of a connection to the Fade and the threat of Audacity freeing itself through the Eluvian seems implausible (to me at least).

 

Well, Merrill's author never took a side (and said she thought it was more interesting reading the analysis on how fans interpreted the story in the Merrill thread a couple of years ago) but it comes across like Audacity manipulated Marethari. Marethari's initial opposition to the Eluvian was due to her claim that Merrill could bring back the taint (which is what she told the clan in Acts I and II, and this is why Pol was so frightened of Merrill when Hawke and her were looking for survivors). Merrill cleansed the shard of the darkspawn taint, and her process worked; this is evident because Merrill handles the shard when she incorporates it into the Eluvian she's creating, and she never turned into a ghoul (unlike the other elves who found the other pieces of the Eluvian in the Elven Ruins).

 

Marethari's reasoning for opposing Merrill changed in Act III when she explicitly said she thought Audacity would escape through the restored Eluvian, and provides this as the rationale for why she frees Audacity and traps the spirit inside her own body.

 

Not saying the Eluvian isn't dangerous now that Solas controls the network but Marethari's rationale seems way off.

 

I think Briala's use of the Orlesian Eluvian network to help the Orlesian elves did prove Merrill right - given that she felt the Eluvians could benefit the elves in a positive way. I do find it disappointing that Merrill's Eluvian arc never really went anywhere (besides that glimpse we see of it - or the counterpart to it - in the Crossroads if she didn't destroy her Eluvian in Kirkwall) and Briala's story with the Orlesian network of Eluvians was simply never explored.

[Qun00]

Bioware can go either way and it will make sense. Merrill siding with Solas is consistent with her backstory and her personality of caring for the elves. Dalish-Satan? I don't think that's a fair comparison seeing as elvish mythology is more complicated than that. Plus you are talking about Merrill, who is a blood mage and willingly bargains with demons right?

According to Dalish beliefs, Fen'harel is the enemy of their gods and the People as a whole.

And Satan means exactly that. The Enemy.

[LobselVith8]

Actually I think Merrill does have the personality to join Solas. She is mainly concerned about elves and is a true believer in Dalish mythology. Solas isn't a maniac, Bioware made him a sympathetic villain that is 3 dimensional. Merrill is not just a vanilla good girl, she is 3 dimensional too. If Bioware decided to have her side with Solas, I would not be upset nor surprised. 

 

It really wouldn't make any sense. You even point out that Merrill is Dalish and believes in the elven pantheon, and Fen'Harel is the one who she knows caused so many problems for everyone (screwing things up on an epic scale). It wouldn't make much sense for her to work with him. I think it would make sense for Merrill to work with Lavellan (or the Inquisitor from another racial background) because of her friendship with Varric (presumably, the two could meet because Lavellan was given the noble title of Comte of Kirkwall) since Solas commandeered control of the Eluvian network and she has studied the lore of the Eluvians.

 

Bioware can go either way and it will make sense. Merrill siding with Solas is consistent with her backstory and her personality of caring for the elves. Dalish-Satan? I don't think that's a fair comparison seeing as elvish mythology is more complicated than that. Plus you are talking about Merrill, who is a blood mage and willingly bargains with demons right? 

 

I assume you're addressing Audacity - the ancient spirit Merrill learned blood magic from, who was trapped in a totem since the war between the Arlathan elves and the humans of Tevinter. She never made a deal with him. No one in the entire storyline even claims that Merrill made a deal with Audacity - absolutely no one. Not even Marethari makes such an accusation.

[Steelcan]

Will Merrill still be a true believer in the Creators though if she learns the truth about them?

[sniper_arrow]

Will Merrill still be a true believer in the Creators though if she learns the truth about them?

 

Not sure. But, I wouldn't be surprised if she stops believing them or revering them as elven gods. 

[In Exile]

That doesn't make sense.
Merrill built an Eluvian from scratch and yet it still required a unique key that she herself didn't build?
If I was building a car from scratch, it wouldn't matter that all the other cars in the world needed to insert the key in the ignition to start because I would build my car to be able to start with a system that I could use.

If I was repairing a car and I lacked the original key, then it would make sense I couldn't start it, however.

I think the idea is that an Eluvian by design required such a key. It's part of it.

[Steelcan]

Not sure. But, I wouldn't be surprised if she stops believing them or revering them as elven gods. 

and that might make her more likely to follow Solas, especially if, however coy he is about the immediate aftermath, the long term is the "restoration" of the elves

[Lumix19]

Well, Merrill's author never took a side (and said she thought it was more interesting reading the analysis on how fans interpreted the story in the Merrill thread a couple of years ago) but it comes across like Audacity manipulated Marethari. Marethari's initial opposition to the Eluvian was due to her claim that Merrill could bring back the taint (which is what she told the clan in Acts I and II, and this is why Pol was so frightened of Merrill when Hawke and her were looking for survivors). Merrill cleansed the shard of the darkspawn taint, and her process worked; this is evident because Merrill handles the shard when she incorporates it into the Eluvian she's creating, and she never turned into a ghoul (unlike the other elves who found the other pieces of the Eluvian in the Elven Ruins).

 

Marethari's reasoning for opposing Merrill changed in Act III when she explicitly said she thought Audacity would escape through the restored Eluvian, and provides this as the rationale for why she frees Audacity and traps the spirit inside her own body.

 

 

I think Briala's use of the Orlesian Eluvian network to help the Orlesian elves did prove Merrill right - given that she felt the Eluvians could benefit the elves in a positive way. I do find it disappointing that Merrill's Eluvian arc never really went anywhere (besides that glimpse we see of it - or the counterpart to it - in the Crossroads if she didn't destroy her Eluvian in Kirkwall) and Briala's story with the Orlesian network of Eluvians was simply never explored.

 

I agree, I thought it proved Merrill wasn't completely misguided. Briala's short time with the Eluvian network does seem underutilised, before we know it Solas has reset the network anyway (which was fairly casually thrown in despite being a rather important point).

Marethari being manipulated by Audacity makes sense; I guess it's supposed to play into both Marethari and Merrill being the victims of pride.

 

Thinking about it maybe Flemeth warned Marethari (in her cryptic way) to stay away from Eluvian for whatever reason and Marethari just came up with the possible reasons.

[Cyberpunk]

According to Dalish beliefs, Fen'harel is the enemy of their gods and the People as a whole.

And Satan means exactly that. The Enemy.

 

Which is why its not applicable to Solas. Dalish still invoke the dread wolf and still have dread wolf statutes to guard against enemies. So no, it's not Dalish Satan. Solas has also convinced other Dalish elves. Merrill, lore-wise, could side with Solas and it will make perfect sense. 

[Cyberpunk]

It really wouldn't make any sense. You even point out that Merrill is Dalish and believes in the elven pantheon, and Fen'Harel is the one who she knows caused so many problems for everyone (screwing things up on an epic scale). It wouldn't make much sense for her to work with him. I think it would make sense for Merrill to work with Lavellan (or the Inquisitor from another racial background) because of her friendship with Varric (presumably, the two could meet because Lavellan was given the noble title of Comte of Kirkwall) since Solas commandeered control of the Eluvian network and she has studied the lore of the Eluvians.

 

 

I assume you're addressing Audacity - the ancient spirit Merrill learned blood magic from, who was trapped in a totem since the war between the Arlathan elves and the humans of Tevinter. She never made a deal with him. No one in the entire storyline even claims that Merrill made a deal with Audacity - absolutely no one. Not even Marethari makes such an accusation.

 

Again Dalish still invoke the dread wolf and still have dread wolf statutes to guard against enemies. So no, it's not Dalish Satan. Solas has also convinced other Dalish elves. Merrill, lore-wise, could side with Solas and it will make perfect sense. 

 

Merrill did not make a deal, my bad, but she was trying to learn from it and was curious about it. That shows she is 3 dimensional and if Bioware made it so that she worked with Solas, it'll make perfect sense. 

[fhs33721]

Which is why its not applicable to Solas. Dalish still invoke the dread wolf and still have dread wolf statutes to guard against enemies. So no, it's not Dalish Satan. Solas has also convinced other Dalish elves. Merrill, lore-wise, could side with Solas and it will make perfect sense. 

He is the bad guy in literally every single Dalish myth he appears in. And they only invoke the dread wolf in curses like "May the dread wolf take you" (a.k.a "Go to hell" in Dalish) and "May the dread wolf never find you" in the sense of "If he does bad things will happen to you".

And the statues of him are always placed with his face away from the camp and are meant to symbolize for him to not find the Dalish. Also they are never brought into the camp itself.

[LobselVith8]

Again Dalish still invoke the dread wolf and still have dread wolf statutes to guard against enemies. So no, it's not Dalish Satan. Solas has also convinced other Dalish elves. Merrill, lore-wise, could side with Solas and it will make perfect sense. 

 

I maintain that it doesn't make sense. I also never claimed Solas was the equivalent to Satan; you're thinking of another poster. My point was that the Dalish are cautioned about the dangers of Fen'Harel; recall the story Merrill tells about a Keeper and his hound. Fen'Harel is not a heroic figure to the Dalish, he's viewed as untrustworthy (and given recent events, they're certainly not wrong about that). As for the "other Dalish elves" you mentioned, you mean Cillian, who already defected from Clan Ralaferin years before even meeting Fen'Harel?

 

Again Dalish still invoke the dread wolf and still have dread wolf statutes to guard against enemies. So no, it's not Dalish Satan. Solas has also convinced other Dalish elves. Merrill, lore-wise, could side with Solas and it will make perfect sense. 

 

Merrill did not make a deal, my bad, but she was trying to learn from it and was curious about it. That shows she is 3 dimensional and if Bioware made it so that she worked with Solas, it'll make perfect sense. 

 

No one is claiming Merrill isn't a three-dimensional character; some of us are simply pointing out that it wouldn't be in-character for her to trust (and therefore work with) Fen'Harel.

[Ghost Gal]

Will Merrill still be a true believer in the Creators though if she learns the truth about them?

 

Merrill was never a "true believer." She always showed signs of agnosticism, being open to the existence of various deities but not firmly believing any of them are fully true, but choosing to worship her own people's deities rather than the ones humans try to shove down her people's throats with a toilet plunger.

 

As she told Anders, "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

Also, when Hawke says of his dead mother, "She's with the Maker now," she gently quips, "Or Falon'Din. You never know."

 

She was never depicted as absolutely convinced her people's religion, legends and stories were 100% right based on indisputable fact (unlike the Chantry). She constantly says "Our stories say X, Y, or Z," "Our Keepers tell us X, Y, Z..." which leaves room for alteration. If she was told the truth behind the stories, I think she'd keep an open mind, and possibly even be relieved to know the real reasons behind many legends.

 

No one is claiming Merrill isn't a three-dimensional character; some of us are simply pointing out that it wouldn't be in-character for her to trust (and therefore work with) Fen'Harel.

 

I'm sorry LobselVith8, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

 

Once again, she tells Anders, "Your 'Maker' is just a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

So if an ancient elf claiming to be the Dread Wolf told her the whole story of their people's history, I think she'd hear him out. She's not so dogmatic that she'd say, "No! Our stories / Our Keepers said you're a wicked trickster trying to lead us a stray, so I won't hear you out, demon!" She herself is the first to admit many times in DA2 that her people's history, lore, and stories are missing so much information, and that their religion and lore are largely stories to explain the world and their place in it (though she believes the same of every religion and world mythology). If told the missing information of her people's stories, and Fen'Harel proved some of the truth of it (like the Shattered Library) and his sincerety, I think she'd be willing to hear him out.

 

Granted, I think his plan to destroy this world to rebuild the old one would not work well with her bleeding heart, since she's so compassionate and has made many friends with non-elves (like Hawke, Isabela, and Varric), so I can't really see her siding with him to destroy all non-elves just to restore the elves.

[German Soldier]

Merill will never side with Solas in the future because she is optional and those NPC who are optional tend to not be reused and this is also why we had Morrigan instead of Merril in the temple of Mythal.
So this discussion is purely an headcanon scenario.

[LobselVith8]

Merrill was never a "true believer." She always showed signs of agnosticism, being open to the existence of various deities but not firmly believing any of them are fully true, but choosing to worship her own people's deities rather than the ones humans try to shove down her people's throats with a toilet plunger.

 

As she told Anders, "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

Also, when Hawke says of his dead mother, "She's with the Maker now," she gently quips, "Or Falon'Din. You never know."

 

The first example involves Merrill dealing with Anders pushing his Andrastian religious views on her, and her refusing to acquiesce. The second example involves Merrill suggesting that Leandra might be with Falon'Din. While Merrill certainly doesn't say that anyone who follows a different religious belief is wrong (unlike Anders, or many Andrastians who follow the faith of the Chantry), she seems to clearly follow elven religious views (which is why she prays to Mythal at Sundermount in Act III).

 

I'm sorry LobselVith8, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

 

No need to apologize for disagreeing with me.

 

Once again, she tells Anders, "Your 'Maker' is just a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

Merrill also prays to Mythal, though.

 

So if an ancient elf claiming to be the Dread Wolf told her the whole story of their people's history, I think she'd hear him out. She's not so dogmatic that she'd say, "No! Our stories / Our Keepers said you're a wicked trickster trying to lead us a stray, so I won't hear you out, demon!" She herself is the first to admit many times in DA2 that her people's history, lore, and stories are missing so much information, and that their religion and lore are largely stories to explain the world and their place in it (though she believes the same of every religion and world mythology). If told the missing information of her people's stories, and Fen'Harel proved some of the truth of it (like the Shattered Library) and his sincerety, I think she'd be willing to hear him out.

 

Granted, I think his plan to destroy this world to rebuild the old one would not work well with her bleeding heart, since she's so compassionate and has made many friends with non-elves (like Hawke, Isabela, and Varric), so I can't really see her siding with him to destroy all non-elves just to restore the elves.

 

Would Merrill hear Solas out? Sure. This approach is similar to one of the things she tells Hawke about spirits - you can listen to them without making any bargains with them (which is exactly what you can do with the Profane Abomination and Torpor). I agree with you on that point. I also don't think Merrill is above realizing she could be wrong; she's the one who openly acknowledges that the Dalish know there are limitations to their knowledge about the past because there are things they simply don't know about. I don't think Merrill would side with Solas, however. She cared about non-elves since Act I (when she barely knew Hawke, Varric, and the others), and the stories of the People give her plenty of reason to be cautious about making any deals with Fen'Harel.

[Hair Serious Business]

 

Where is dislike button?

I want to dislike because I can't like 

[Lunatica]

Reoccurring characters are good if used properly, throwing left and right reoccurring characters with no reason when every game jumps not only to different protagonist but also different region is silly especially if they constantly throw resurrection card.Doing such things not only make setting look unbelievable and small, but also undermines choices made by player or straight away strips us of freedom to deal with characters so they can bring character back in next games.

 

In Dragon age there is no reason to use reoccurring characters to hold story together because dragon age isn't personal story only supposedly be about Thedas not small group of people.

Narrative flexibility seems to be the strength of this medium and frankly BioWare doesn't often utilize that strength even though they proclaim that they do with  the retconning of the more inconvenient (read: difficult to accommodate for future games) plot portions of DA:O, 

People would think they were getting a Toyota but in reality they were getting a Star Wars toy.  Yep, they're getting exactly what they called in for, but not really.BioWare has a tendency to give you something and then take it away because it doesn't fit with their vision later on.

 

 

Not everything has to be in their control, but if they specifically give us an option to do or not do something and then it gets thrown in our face anyway, it feels like weak writing and feels like a result of budget constraints or something I shouldn't be thinking about as I'm playing.  If they don't see this as relevant to creating games than so be it, but that has been my main source of frustration with the company both in this franchise as well as in Mass Effect.  The illusion of choice can be very frustrating, and the idea that you'll remove the consequence you heavily imply because it's "your" story is a bit at odds with how the games are marketed and perceived, at least from my standpoint.The whole thing sets a precedent which basically says that no matter what you do, it may not turn out how you wanted or how we implied it would.  That is a very, very odd stance to take in games such as these where choice is advertised as a key feature.  Imagine if this lack of certainty was applied to every single choice you made in any game.  It would basically ruin the experience and negate the reason choice is in games in the first place. And yes, I'm not suggesting they should make anything but the games they want to make.  That said, I find the product loses a ton of depth and quality when decisions are made to be that way.  It feels like BioWare prioritizes characters returning over confirming and maintaining the effects of the player choices, and that is sad to me.

[German Soldier]

Where is dislike button?

I want to dislike because I can't like 

Those are mostly cheap throwaway comments you would mostly find to be like those in the DA confessions they are not meant to be taken as serious since there is no analysis behind them.

[Cyberpunk]

I maintain that it doesn't make sense. I also never claimed Solas was the equivalent to Satan; you're thinking of another poster. My point was that the Dalish are cautioned about the dangers of Fen'Harel; recall the story Merrill tells about a Keeper and his hound. Fen'Harel is not a heroic figure to the Dalish, he's viewed as untrustworthy (and given recent events, they're certainly not wrong about that). As for the "other Dalish elves" you mentioned, you mean Cillian, who already defected from Clan Ralaferin years before even meeting Fen'Harel?

 

 

No one is claiming Merrill isn't a three-dimensional character; some of us are simply pointing out that it wouldn't be in-character for her to trust (and therefore work with) Fen'Harel.

 

And I'm pointing out the reasons why it would be in her character to trust and work with Solas. It is also in her character not to. Up to Bioware. 

 

Fen'Harel is still feared and respected in Dalish culture. And Merrill has wandered into blood magic before, showing a willingness to accept new thoughts. Finally, Solas has convinced other Dalish elves to follow him. All this show that Merrill COULD potentially side with Solas and it will be in her character. 

[Cyberpunk]

He is the bad guy in literally every single Dalish myth he appears in. And they only invoke the dread wolf in curses like "May the dread wolf take you" (a.k.a "Go to hell" in Dalish) and "May the dread wolf never find you" in the sense of "If he does bad things will happen to you".

And the statues of him are always placed with his face away from the camp and are meant to symbolize for him to not find the Dalish. Also they are never brought into the camp itself.

 

I know that, my point is that Solas has already convinced Dalish elves to side with him. Merrill has also shown a willingness to go to the "bad side" of magic like with blood magic and the Eluvian. Finally, Fen'Harel is still respected and his statutes are used in Dalish camps to ward away enemies. 

[Heimdall]

I don't really see a romanced Merrill following Solas at any rate.

[Sifr]

I know that, my point is that Solas has already convinced Dalish elves to side with him. Merrill has also shown a willingness to go to the "bad side" of magic like with blood magic and the Eluvian. Finally, Fen'Harel is still respected and his statutes are used in Dalish camps to ward away enemies. 

 

I don't think the statues denote respect, but are supposed to serve as something monstrous to scare away evil spirits.

 

Similar to how gargoyles are often carved into gothic style buildings and churches, supposedly to ward off evil and protect the place (although fancy drainage is the real reason), but people don't actually worship them.

[SmilesJA]

I wonder how Solas and Merrill will interact with each other......