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Is Morrigan just that much more competent and intelligent than Merrill?


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#401
Cyberpunk

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I don't think the statues denote respect, but are supposed to serve as something monstrous to scare away evil spirits.

 

Similar to how gargoyles are often carved into gothic style buildings and churches, supposedly to ward off evil and protect the place (although fancy drainage is the real reason), but people don't actually worship them.

 

True, but it shows a certain level of respect that doesn't go to the "Dalish-Satan" narrative being espoused. That's all my point is. 



#402
dragonflight288

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I know that, my point is that Solas has already convinced Dalish elves to side with him. Merrill has also shown a willingness to go to the "bad side" of magic like with blood magic and the Eluvian. Finally, Fen'Harel is still respected and his statutes are used in Dalish camps to ward away enemies. 

 

"Bad Side?" 

 

Ever since Origins (and even to an extent, Jade Empire,) I have maintained that "magic is magic," which is Solas' view as well, a view Merrill shares. Or the Dragon Amulet in Jade Empire as a powerful channeling tool of the Spirit Monks. 

 

But every tool can be used and abused by those who know how to use them, or misuse them as the case may be. 

 

I have yet to see how study of eluvians is a "bad" side of magic either. Magic portals and communication devices can be HUGE boons to a society regarding economic growth, sharing of information, or in times of war, a huge tactical advantage, as the Qunari and Solas prove in Trespasser. 

 

More often than not, in the Dragon Age setting, I find that the idea of bad or evil magic is built largely on religious propaganda backed up with a nation built on slavery and arrogant entitlement of power as a cautionary tale. True, Tevinter most certainly is a cautionary tale, but so is Orlais with how the nobles treat servants, peasants and pretty much non-orlesians in the Game. Sometimes the only way to win is to simply not play, and even then that may not work because you're probably a pawn of someone else's game.

 

Too much of anything is bad, and even the best things in the world can be abused.


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#403
LobselVith8

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I wonder how Solas and Merrill will interact with each other......

 

Well, Solas has said he views spirits as being more complex than simple 'good and evil', and he doesn't view blood magic as evil, so I could see them having a lot of common ground if the two had met during the story of Inquisition (say, if Merrill had been the arcane advisor and Eluvian expert in the story). However, with Solas as Fen'Harel, she would be incredibly cautious and hesitant; the Dalish tell stories about his treacherous nature, so I see them being on opposite sides when Fen'Harel is gathering followers.

 

Fortunately, given Merrill taking a leadership role with the elves who had no one else to turn to, I think the elves who were protected by her might be more inclined to stay at Merrill's side than join Fen'Harel in his crusade (especially if Merrill shared her stories with them).

 

I imagine most Dalish would be also against Fen'Harel because of how their stories frame the character (it seems Cillian is following him, but he left Clan Ralaferin years before meeting Solas). Given Merrill's friendship with Kirkwall's Viscount (and the possibility of the new Comte being Lavellan), the clans could meet near Kirkwall to lend aid in stopping Fen'Harel (especially if they knew the Viscount was friends with a known Dalish elf) - which wouldn't be unprecedented, given that the Dalish signed a treaty with the Wardens to aid at a time of Blight, so I imagine that stopping Fen'Harel would be noteworthy enough for them.


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#404
Lunatica

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Where is dislike button?

I want to dislike because I can't like  <_<

Look Gif.... look avatar...it's a battle of twins!

 

Sometimes the only way to win is to simply not play

The Maker approve +100



#405
TheKomandorShepard

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More often than not, in the Dragon Age setting, I find that the idea of bad or evil magic is built largely on religious propaganda backed up with a nation built on slavery and arrogant entitlement of power as a cautionary tale. True, Tevinter most certainly is a cautionary tale, but so is Orlais with how the nobles treat servants, peasants and pretty much non-orlesians in the Game. Sometimes the only way to win is to simply not play, and even then that may not work because you're probably a pawn of someone else's game.

 

Too much of anything is bad, and even the best things in the world can be abused.

 

Rly, you sure that have nothing to do with mages constantly unleashing destruction onto society or world? It seems idea that magic is bad steams from common sense and self-preservation rather than religious "propaganda".

 

If you check pros and cons of magic , magic starts looking rather bad to put it midly.


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#406
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"Bad Side?" 

 

Ever since Origins (and even to an extent, Jade Empire,) I have maintained that "magic is magic," which is Solas' view as well, a view Merrill shares. Or the Dragon Amulet in Jade Empire as a powerful channeling tool of the Spirit Monks. 

 

But every tool can be used and abused by those who know how to use them, or misuse them as the case may be. 

 

I have yet to see how study of eluvians is a "bad" side of magic either. Magic portals and communication devices can be HUGE boons to a society regarding economic growth, sharing of information, or in times of war, a huge tactical advantage, as the Qunari and Solas prove in Trespasser. 

 

More often than not, in the Dragon Age setting, I find that the idea of bad or evil magic is built largely on religious propaganda backed up with a nation built on slavery and arrogant entitlement of power as a cautionary tale. True, Tevinter most certainly is a cautionary tale, but so is Orlais with how the nobles treat servants, peasants and pretty much non-orlesians in the Game. Sometimes the only way to win is to simply not play, and even then that may not work because you're probably a pawn of someone else's game.

 

Too much of anything is bad, and even the best things in the world can be abused.

 

I agree! Notice the quotations marks around "bad side". The fact that Solas and Merrill share the same view on magic makes it even likelier she would work with him. Also perfectly acceptable if she doesn't. 



#407
TevinterSupremacist

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She is, but given Merrill's intellect, that's not exactly a noteworthy feat.



#408
LobselVith8

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She is, but given Merrill's intellect, that's not exactly a noteworthy feat.

 

Given Merrill's adept use with magic (like being able to discern the nature of the Profane Abomination), her handling of blood magic (her ability to see whether or not Keran is possessed through his blood), her construction of an Eluvian (a feat that leads to its appearance in the Crossroads), and her leadership of the elves during the timeframe of Inquisition, I'd say she's clearly a highly intelligent person.


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#409
SmilesJA

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She is, but given Merrill's intellect, that's not exactly a noteworthy feat.

 

Merrill is very intelligent, but naive and sometimes arrogant.



#410
TheJediSaint

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Morrigan was raised by an actual elven goddess, and had access to grimore of said goddess.

 

Merrill was raised by the Dalish, who have a long history of being wrong about everything.

 

I don't think it's really fair to compare Merrill to Morrigan.


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#411
In Exile

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Morrigan was raised by an actual elven goddess, and had access to grimore of said goddess.

Merrill was raised by the Dalish, who have a long history of being wrong about everything.

I don't think it's really fair to compare Merrill to Morrigan.


But Morrigan seems to acquire her knowledge of the Eluvian from the Dalish. She steals a book from them on the subject. The real question is why the Dalish have failed miserably at reclaiming the Eluvian for hundreds of years despite having this knowledge. Presumably like with the scam perpetrated by Zathrian, they're blinded by their strong adherence to their cultural and religious fiction. I assume Marethari's attitude is the default.

#412
LobselVith8

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Morrigan was raised by an actual elven goddess, and had access to grimore of said goddess.

 

Morrigan's dialogue with Mahariel, and her need to acquire an elven tome from Ariane's clan, would suggest Asha'bellanar wasn't the one who provided her with the knowledge.

 

Merrill was raised by the Dalish, who have a long history of being wrong about everything.

 

Given that they knew about the existence of Arlathan, the immorality of the ancient elves, the Creators being real, the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, and Fen'Harel trapping the Creators, I don't think it's factually accurate to say that the Dalish were wrong about everything. But that's just me. :)

 

I don't think it's really fair to compare Merrill to Morrigan.

 

Morrigan was using an existing Eluvian (that she repaired in Serault with the backing of Empress Celene) while Merrill was constructing an Eluvian from lore she studied and a single shard in the Kirkwall Alienage, so the two scenarios were entirely different. Apples and oranges, really.


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#413
Ghost Gal

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Morrigan was raised by an actual elven goddess, and had access to grimore of said goddess.

 

And she got her existing Eluvian working by stealing a Dalish book.

 

And the knowledge of ancient elven lore she spouts at the Temple of Mythal is rudimentary at best.

 

1) Most of what she says are trivia any Dalish could tell her, and which Solas (an actual elven god himself) tells her is not as extensive as she thinks it is; adding that what she mistakes for elven history is actually elven legends and lore.

 

2) The stories she tells of Creators at the murals are, again, basic legends most Dalish already know, and it's Solas (an actual elven god) who constantly adds more details for her.

 

3) All she knows that the Dalish Inquisitor wouldn't reasonably know is how to read ancient elven text, but that doesn't stop her from making so many history, lore, and translation mistakes that she herself admits she made after getting back.

 

Also, she had not the faintest idea the one who raised her was an actual elven goddess, and there's no hint the grimoire of said goddess had anything elven in it, so that's moot.

 

Merrill was raised by the Dalish, who have a long history of being wrong about everything.

 

Which part? The part about Arlathan and Elvhenan being just as real, beautiful, and glorious as the legends describe? Ancient elves being immortal? Elves being tied to magic? The divide between spirits and demons not being as cut-and-dried as the Chantry claims? The Creators being real? The war between the Creators and Forgotten Ones? Fen'Harel being the one who sealed them away?

 

It seems to me they got a lot of stuff right.

 

I don't think it's really fair to compare Merrill to Morrigan.

 

You're right. Morrigan found and got a pre-existing Eluvian working by stealing Dalish books.

 

Merrill rebuilt an entire Eluvian from a single shard and her own research from Dalish sources, and likely could have gotten it working had she gotten the magical password before Marethari interfered.

 

Clearly, we know who's the superior intellect. 


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#414
Steelcan

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Morrigan got her book from the Dalish, but that doesn't mean the Dalish knew what it was they were working with.


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#415
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Morrigan got her book from the Dalish, but that doesn't mean the Dalish knew what it was they were working with.


Do we know if the book was written by the Dalish or if it was actually an ancient elvhen book?

#416
SmilesJA

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Morrigan was raised by an actual elven goddess, and had access to grimore of said goddess.

 

 

 

But did Flemeth/Mythal teach Morrigan anything related to the Elven? It seems that Morrigan received her knowledge from the Grimore or other books she found.



#417
Reznore57

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But did Flemeth/Mythal teach Morrigan anything related to the Elven? It seems that Morrigan received her knowledge from the Grimore or other books she found.

 

Shapeshifting , the Dark Ritual ...although it seems Flemeth kept most  true historical account to herself (Morrigan knows the official Dalish version about the ancient elves with a bit more trivia here and there but nothing earthshattering.)

Morrigan has no clear idea what an Old God is either and she was willing to have one in her uterus but I guess it goes along with not even knowing what her mother truly was.

 

Anyway it seems Flemeth gave her tough life lessons and taught her magic in an effective manner (Morrigan is not scared of demons and don't fall for their bluff for example) but she probably didn't explain a lot of things and I assume with Morrigan current thirst for knowledge and saving old wonders , Flemeth did tease her with secret knowledge and stuff for years.



#418
sniper_arrow

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I'm not sure if this was already answered, but why didn't Flemeth tell Morrigan about Mythal directly?



#419
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I'm not sure if this was already answered, but why didn't Flemeth tell Morrigan about Mythal directly?


Flemeth suggests that it was part of her plan that Morrigan believe what she ended up believing as it would move her along a predictable path. So I suspect the answer is that because that was the plan all along.

#420
TheJediSaint

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But Morrigan seems to acquire her knowledge of the Eluvian from the Dalish. She steals a book from them on the subject. The real question is why the Dalish have failed miserably at reclaiming the Eluvian for hundreds of years despite having this knowledge. Presumably like with the scam perpetrated by Zathrian, they're blinded by their strong adherence to their cultural and religious fiction. I assume Marethari's attitude is the default.

 

Well, being raised by Flemeth probably gave Morrigan the background knowledge needed to actually understand the book's content.

 

Not being weighed down by the Dalish's fanfic history probably helped too.



#421
ModernAcademic

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I'm not sure if this was already answered, but why didn't Flemeth tell Morrigan about Mythal directly?

 

My bet is that the devs didn't even plan for Flemeth to be an elven goddess when Origins came out.

 

Sure, maybe the intended background for her was that of an old sorceress connected to the Wardens, somehow. Someone wise about the taint and the kind of dark magic that it originated from. Maybe an escaped mage from Tevinter. Or a really old mage born before the First Blight who accepted a spirit inside her and ended up achieving immortality thanks to the knowledge he shared with her. That would explain both her knowledge about the taint and her immortality, wouldn't it?

 

After all, there are no dragons in the elven lore (she turns into a dragon if you fight her) and it makes no sense to have a seclusive old human have any sort of connection with the elves at all.


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#422
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Do we know if the book was written by the Dalish or if it was actually an ancient elvhen book?

 

According to Ariane, at least, the book was in her clan since the days of Arlathan. Her clan didn't knew how to use it simply because they didn't knew what an Eluvian was.

 

Also, we have to take into account that Ariane was a hunter. Hunters don't know how to read elvish nor other ancient Dalish knowledge. They know what little the keepers and hahrens of their clans tell them about the Dales and Arlathan. We don't know if the keeper or the first of her clan knew something they didn't tell to Ariane, beyond that the book was important.



#423
LobselVith8

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But did Flemeth/Mythal teach Morrigan anything related to the Elven? It seems that Morrigan received her knowledge from the Grimore or other books she found.

 

Morrigan's dialogue with Mahariel has her tell the Dalish protagonist that she didn't (it's why she was curious to begin with). Any information would likely have to come from the grimoire the Warden gives her.



#424
Gervaise

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I seriously doubt that book was around from the days of Arlathan in her clan unless Arianne's clan were never captured by Tevinter.   More likely it was something secreted away and then discovered later.    Still if it did come from ancient times, then the language would have been archaic and likely much of it was indecipherable to modern elves.    They lost nearly all their language and culture under Tevinter but even if they had never been enslaved, language still changes over time.   Try reading a book from the time of Shakespeare or Chaucer and you will see what I mean.   If you go back even further to old Anglo Saxon and you'd barely be able to read it at all, yet that would be in one of the root languages of English.   

 

Flemeth may have given her a smattering of elvish.   She may have picked up more about ancient runes and symbols from the grimoire.   Assuming the book about eluvians she is reading in the garden is the same book, then she admits that she only now fully understands the text with the benefit of the Well of Sorrows.   There is a nuance to elvish writing that you don't appreciate from simple translation.    This is why all those human scholars who are quoted with new insights into the elven legends should be taken with a pinch of salt because they would have even less appreciation of the subtlety of the language than Morrigan did.

 

How do you know that Cilian is following Solas?   He learnt how to be an arcane warrior at an ancient shrine.   He has the vallaslin of June.   If he had met Solas and was his follower, you'd think Solas would have removed his vallaslin.   In any case, he could simply have meditated at the shrine and contacted the spirits associated with the place, as Solas claims is possible.   Then during his prolonged period there he was able to learn the secrets of the ancient order.    His armour could simply have been buried there.   All the ancient elves seem to have the same, it is not confined to Fen'Harel.  The entry on him in the Wiki says that his years of meditation and solitude gave him a wisdom and respect for all life, while his entry in WoT2 says he returned to the world to dedicate his skills to fighting "for the greater good of all Thedosians."   That doesn't suggest someone who would rush off and join Solas.



#425
Gervaise

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I think both Morrigan and Merrill demonstrate a degree of intelligence.  A person can have great intelligence but little common sense.    A better question might be to ask which shows the greatest wisdom.    For example, would Merrill jump at the chance of drinking from the Well of Sorrows?    Would she be so quick to dismiss the dangers of the geas?    Would she be more likely to heed the warning from Cole about the spirits that would be running around in your head?  Would she be less inclined to believe that Mythal was truly dead?

 

Even if you think she would be just as likely as Morrigan, then you could argue that both were as heedless of the potential dangers so fixated they were on the benefits of drinking.   Morrigan certainly regretted her decision once the full implications were revealed to her but then she had been warned.   She was just so full of herself that she knew best and wanted that knowledge.