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Is Morrigan just that much more competent and intelligent than Merrill?


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#126
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Corypheus and Inq have created the breach not Solas.

His plans always blow up, they never went how he expect.
He wanted to give the elves free reign in their future so he aprisioned the creator and forgotten ones, what happened? The elves destroyed themselves.
He wanted to unlock his orb's power, he gave it to Corypheus and what happened? Breach, demons, death and destruction.
He allied with the Inquisition to recover his orb, what happened? The Orb was destroyed.
His plans always fail, and now he killed Flemeth to have the power to help the elves, and I'm prety sure it will be a catastrophe again.

In fact I think he should be the god of failure.
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#127
ThePhoenixKing

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His plans always blow up, they never went how he expect.
He wanted to give the elves free reign in their future so he aprisioned the creator and forgotten ones, what happened? The elves destroyed themselves.
He wanted to unlock his orb's power, he gave it to Corypheus and what happened? Breach, demons, death and destruction.
He allied with the Inquisition to recover his orb, what happened? The Orb was destroyed.
His plans always fail, and now he killed Flemeth to have the power to help the elves, and I'm prety sure it will be a catastrophe again.

In fact I think he should be the god of failure.

 

Precisely, he's not the God of Rebellion, he's the God of Colossal ^@*#-ups.

 

Getting back on topic, I'd love to know how Morrigan managed to repair her Eluvian and access the network herself; there's a great story in there, I'm certain.


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#128
LOLandStuff

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His plans always blow up, they never went how he expect.
He wanted to give the elves free reign in their future so he aprisioned the creator and forgotten ones, what happened? The elves destroyed themselves.
He wanted to unlock his orb's power, he gave it to Corypheus and what happened? Breach, demons, death and destruction.
He allied with the Inquisition to recover his orb, what happened? The Orb was destroyed.
His plans always fail, and now he killed Flemeth to have the power to help the elves, and I'm prety sure it will be a catastrophe again.

In fact I think he should be the god of failure.

 

Maybe Solas was jealous of the other gods, no matter how assholish they were, and decided to lock them up. Then the elves would have no one else to worship but him.

That would explain why their empire failed so hard without the gods holding their hand.


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#129
ThePhoenixKing

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Maybe Solas was jealous of the other gods, no matter how assholish they were, and decided to lock them up. Then the elves would have no one else to worship but him.

That would explain why their empire failed so hard without the gods holding their hand.

 

Well, considering how quick he is to condemn people for choices he doesn't agree with despite being big about personal freedom, that makes a terrifying amount of sense.



#130
SmilesJA

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I think Solas is a bit arrogant, but he apologizes quickly if you call him out on it. As for Morrigan/Merrill comparison, personally I think It would've more sense to put Merrill instead of Morrigan mainly because she's a keeper whos job is to preserve ancient elven history. Could you imagine the look on Merrill's face if Abelas said that the elves, not the humans were responsible for the fall of the Elven homeland? I don't think there was any reaction from Morrigan.


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#131
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I have to say, this did slightly irk me.

 

Merrill is rather awkward and scatty, but that doesn't imply she's incompetent. As people have argued above, she's essentially building a portal from scratch, rather than unlocking them (and thus, I hope, if she ever returns she'd be able to give more insight). She knows about as much as Morrigan when she leaves for the outside world (Morrigan too, remember, spent most of her life isolated in the wilderness). Rather, it's just Morrigan is very good at pretending she knows what she's doing, to the point she's convinced herself. Morrigan, after all, in DA:I, spends most of her role pretending she's some expert on elven lore and magic yet is about as wrong as any Dalish elf (see: being wrong about the eluvian, being determined to drink from this well that she's only just heard of, confusing tales and history when she chats shite about the statues in the Temple - and being on the receiving end of some snark from Solas because of it, being unable to see the gaes in the well and being determined to drink from it regardless of being told about it, and... well, her reunion with Flemeth regardless of what choices you picked). We also see this in DA:O when you romance her - underneath the cold, survival-of-the-fittest exterior, she's damn vulnerable and pretty unsure at times of what she's doing (especially in love). She's definitely smarter and more knowledgeable than average, but she's also good at seeming competent and bluffing, and sometimes this backfires tremendously.

 

So, given that our resident ~elven expert~ has about as much as a clue as everyone else, despite her efforts to make us believe otherwise, why is it that she was able to fix two eluvians when Merrill struggled with one?

 

Here's the potential reasons people have listed:

- Morrigan had some advantage being brought up by Flemeth

- Morrigan's ruthlessness - e.g. stealing the Dalish tome - gave her an advantage

- Morrigan was lucky enough to find an in-tact, deactivated eluvian.

 

1. I don't really buy that being a daughter of Flemeth gave her too much of an advantage. Flemeth concealed a lot from Morrigan and always pushed her into finding answers herself rather than providing them for Morrigan on a platter. Plus, that little hut of theirs was hardly crammed with books, after all. Morrigan was also relatively uninterested in eluvians during the events of Origins - her interest in eluvians came two years later, during Witch Hunt. Of course, Morrigan could have concealed this from us, as she did the Dark Ritual. I would like to know if a Dalish elf ever has a unique conversation on the topic actually - I haven't got that far with it myself. I personally think it's much more likely this is something she's discovered in research post-blight (and quite possibly from one of Flemeth's grimoires). She mentions the crossroads was as much a place to hide from enemies, and likely her interest in the eluvians spawned from a practical standpoint too, as she was no longer under the protection of Flemeth or the Warden after the blight.

 

2. I think the latter two points are true, however. Morrigan's don't-give-a-**** attitude meant she was able to steal precious secrets from the Dalish and combine them with a translation they'd never be able to access in any legal way (it's implied during Witch Hunt that many bits and pieces of knowledge on the elves is locked away in the Circles - elven history, elven magical knowledge, elvish lexicons - without any access for the Dalish: a human mage will, unfortunately, probably have an advantage here over one of the Dalish).

 

3. I also think Morrigan got damn lucky. It's made clear eluvians are really rare and difficult to find. Especially undamaged. The Dalish knew little of them, and the Sabrae clan only stumbled upon them by accident (part of me wonders whether Dalish clans, in their movements, deliberately try to look for ruins and keep a running record of them - if so, the Dalish origin makes a lot of sense). We have little idea, then, how Morrigan managed to find the one she did - luck's partially involved, and possibly some stolen maps or expertise. It's not probably going to be made clear. She had two years, her magical ability, plus her wits.

 

Really, I think it's fair enough that Morrigan managed to stumble upon the eluvian. However, I suppose what I dislike is that Merrill's quest to restore hers is played, in the narrative of DA2, is a tragic parable about the dangers of blood magic where her pursuit of knowledge is derided and Merrill's yet another victim to pride. I think that after DA:I, which counters some of the claims about spirits and magic being so dangerous (see: Solas' personal quest, and the Avaar's approach to spirits), and poses instead that greater knowledge and wisdom means we're better equipped to recognise and deal with spirits/demons, rather than immediate fear, refusal to engage and understand, and unwavering vigilance that templars propose as a solution. This is in part due to DA2's end choice means it tries to justify siding with the templars in the narrative, and its emphasis on magic as being a really grey area where there are many approaches and many of those are wrong. An unfortunate side effect is that Merrill looks like a clueless fool whereas Morrigan seems much more competent.

 

Whilst I disagree with the notion Bioware looks down on elves - in fact, I think it deals with them incredibly well - I do, on the whole, really dislike it in fiction when a dominant coloniser has superior knowledge to the natives. In Dragon Age, arguably Morrigan fits into that category - she's a rather haughty, clever human with a thirst for ancient knowledge who seems to know more about elves than they do themselves. Of course, she's also wrong about many things (I wish they'd made eve more of a point of this) but it wrankles at me still. I mean, given the near-complete systematic destruction of records of ancient elven history and culture, we can't expect elves in the narrative - who are either poor or enslaved - to be experts. I guess part of me wishes they'd made Flemeth and Morrigan elves (which'd solve the problem, really). But I suppose if that were the case, we might have predicted Flemythal from the start.


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#132
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Also, a thought: do you reckon Merrill could have someone filled Morrigan's place as ~ancient elven expert~ in DA:I? Obviously, she'd be introduced to the Inquisition in a completely different way (i.e. not through Celene). Given that we do meet Hawke, it wouldn't be outside the realm of logical possibility. Would this have worked better or worse, do you lot reckon? (I'm thinking more from a lore standpoint as well as whether it strengthens or weakens the story, and less of a 'well I prefer this character to that one' standpoint).


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#133
SmilesJA

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Yes. Merrill isn't stupid, but her background knowledge and her education was lacking compared to Morrigan's.

 

Education? Merrill spent possibly her childhood immersing herself into Elven lore, Morrigan on the other hand to me felt like she read a couple of books and declared herself an expert on the Elves.


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#134
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Education? Merrill spent possibly her childhood immersing herself into Elven lore, Morrigan on the other hand to me felt like she read a couple of books and declared herself an expert on the Elves.

 

This so much. Whilst you can question how much the Dalish know, it's not like Morrigan has access to much better sources, given she's an apostate leaving on the edge of the wilderness. She didn't particularly care or comment about the elves particularly in Origins - ancient magic yes, elven lore and history no - so we can assume she didn't bother researching them until she left the Warden. She's not a dreamer, so can't search the fade for information that is lost, and she has no access to any substantial library until she's in Orlais, which is likely going to be heavily restricted because it's Orlais - it annihilated the Dales and subsequently purged all information about the elves. I like Morrigan, but I wish you could shove her off her pedestal in Inquisition, she knows basically nowt.


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#135
blahblahblah

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 Corypheus and Inq have created the breach not Solas.

LOL, did play DAI and never take notice of everything or just biased towards Solas. Solas created the Breach by giving it to Corypheus so get your damn facts straight everytime you necro threads like this.



#136
TheKomandorShepard

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His plans always blow up, they never went how he expect.
He wanted to give the elves free reign in their future so he aprisioned the creator and forgotten ones, what happened? The elves destroyed themselves.
He wanted to unlock his orb's power, he gave it to Corypheus and what happened? Breach, demons, death and destruction.
He allied with the Inquisition to recover his orb, what happened? The Orb was destroyed.
His plans always fail, and now he killed Flemeth to have the power to help the elves, and I'm prety sure it will be a catastrophe again.

In fact I think he should be the god of failure.

If i recall we don't know what exactly happened to the first elven empire and part about elves destroying themselves can pretty much mean everything.We don't know even if solas in fact did that only elven legends say he did and well they are not very accurate as far.Unless WoT vol 2 pointed something i don't know.

 

As far we know his only screw up is giving orb to Corypheus what wasn't very smart move.


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#137
FemShem

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But yeah, back to the initial point of this topic... Is Morrigan just that much better?

I like Merrill.  I even romanced her once.

Let's think about their training as mages...Morrigan was taught by Flemeth and then on to learn on her own.

Merrill was trying to use a demon to repair it.  Her Keeper was her only teacher and withheld the information from her.  There was no where else for her to expand her knowledge on Eluvians living as an elf in an alienage.

Morrigan was human, beautiful and had wiles.  She had the ability to find information and an elf in an alienage couldn't dream of...plus she wasn't really seeing everything.  Flemish warned her about her eyes being shut.  Flemish told her how bright she was...I think they both had talent, but Merrill didn't have Mythal for a mom, had no confidence, and in the end turned to a demon to help her finish the work.

Different opportunities.  Given Flemeth's reaction to her intelligence and talent, I would say they were par, but Morrigan had opportunity, knowledge (which she claims is one of the main keys to her power).

Edit: I should really try to keep the M names straight when posting.


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#138
FemShem

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His plans always fail, and now he killed Flemeth to have the power to help the elves, and I'm prety sure it will be a catastrophe again.

In fact I think he should be the god of failure.

I got the impression Flemish/Mythal killed him.  I think it was a simple misdirect, but if you watch it with that in mind it seems implied.


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#139
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If i recall we don't know what exactly happened to the first elven empire and part about elves destroying themselves can pretty much mean everything.We don't know even if solas in fact did that only elven legends say he did and well they are not very accurate as far.Unless WoT vol 2 pointed something i don't know.
 
As far we know his only screw up is giving orb to Corypheus what wasn't very smart move.

Wait, its really TKS defending a mage? Is this some kind of parallel universe where people have inversed personality? What is next? A xil or superdarkone pro templar?
I want to go back.
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#140
TheKomandorShepard

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Wait, its really TKS defending a mage? Is this some kind of parallel universe where people have inversed personality? What is next? A xil or superdarkone pro templar?
I want to go back.

Im not defending him ,just sayin that we know too little about whole thing with first elven empire and its fall. :P

I will be always anti-mage in da-verse unless they will retcon a lot of things about magic ,or it is short-term deal with mage that i can handle.



#141
LOLandStuff

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Wait, its really TKS defending a mage? Is this some kind of parallel universe where people have inversed personality? What is next? A xil or superdarkone pro templar?
I want to go back.

 

Must be Opposite Day.


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#142
draken-heart

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I hate to say this, as I love Merrill to death, but Morrigan is leagues above the Dalish girl in competence. Simply put, Morrigan carries herself properly in any situation, and that spells competent in anything magical as well. Besides, Morrigan found and reactivated an Eluvian without much time needed, while Merrill takes 3-6 years to fix one, and ends up giving up if you friend her (I think) or breaks it if rivaled.



#143
Vorathrad

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I hate to say this, as I love Merrill to death, but Morrigan is leagues above the Dalish girl in competence. Simply put, Morrigan carries herself properly in any situation, and that spells competent in anything magical as well. Besides, Morrigan found and reactivated an Eluvian without much time needed, while Merrill takes 3-6 years to fix one, and ends up giving up if you friend her (I think) or breaks it if rivaled.

 

Well, there's the tiny little detail that Merrill's eluvian was tainted.

 

Also, a thought: do you reckon Merrill could have someone filled Morrigan's place as ~ancient elven expert~ in DA:I? Obviously, she'd be introduced to the Inquisition in a completely different way (i.e. not through Celene). Given that we do meet Hawke, it wouldn't be outside the realm of logical possibility. Would this have worked better or worse, do you lot reckon? (I'm thinking more from a lore standpoint as well as whether it strengthens or weakens the story, and less of a 'well I prefer this character to that one' standpoint).

 

I dislike both characters, so I think I can give a balanced opinion  :P I think it could have worked lore-wise; as some of you pointed, Merrill has probably spent her life studying elven lore while Morrigan's interest in it seems pretty recent. But game-wise... I don't know if that's the word, I think it would have resulted in too many recurring characters from DA2. You have Varric as a permanent companion and Hawke's cameo. I'd have preferred a new character as ancient elven expert that was, you know, elven. Maybe one of the Mythal sentinels that agrees to go with you? (just a random idea) If I had to choose between the two I'd rather have Merrill; we've had enough "Dalish don't have a clue" and it'd be nice to have something to counterbalance.

 

Edit to add: "Whilst I disagree with the notion Bioware looks down on elves - in fact, I think it deals with them incredibly well - I do, on the whole, really dislike it in fiction when a dominant coloniser has superior knowledge to the natives." So much this. Morrigan knowing better than all Dalish together is the same as the Western samurai that ends up being the greatest samurai in history. But I also think that it is part this and part Morrigan being the huge writer's pet she is.


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#144
Ieldra

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Education? Merrill spent possibly her childhood immersing herself into Elven lore, Morrigan on the other hand to me felt like she read a couple of books and declared herself an expert on the Elves.

Being an expert on elven lore won't necessarily give you anything about the eluvians except their history. What you need is knowledge about magic, more precisely unorthodox knowledge about magic. Any source you could name "traditional" won't get you there - if it did, someone would've deciphered the eluvians' secrets long ago. Flemeth is one of the few plausible sources of such knowledge, and we can infer - from the events of DAO and DAI - that she gave some of it to Morrigan, and/or let Morrigan find some of it in the book the Warden recovered for her in some worldstates.

Meanwhile, the Keepers' attitude to the relevant knowledge is "let it remain buried", an attitude that's hardly conducive to new discoveries.
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#145
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It works pretty well if Morrigan connected with Mahariel, or romanced them.. (whether they are alive or dead).. Maybe she exploited that fact to get in touch with more Dalish clans later. Like with Ariane's clan. And thus, acquired a lot of lore in the process. On top of being Flemeth's (and/or Mythal's) daughter, which probably contributed to a lot of elven knowledge, without her even knowing it. 



#146
Vorathrad

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Being an expert on elven lore won't necessarily give you anything about the eluvians except their history. What you need is knowledge about magic, more precisely unorthodox knowledge about magic. Any source you could name "traditional" won't get you there - if it did, someone would've deciphered the eluvians' secrets long ago. Flemeth is one of the few plausible sources of such knowledge, and we can infer - from the events of DAO and DAI - that she gave some of it to Morrigan, and/or let Morrigan find some of it in the book the Warden recovered for her in some worldstates.Meanwhile, the Keepers' attitude to the relevant knowledge is "let it remain buried", an attitude that's hardly conducive to new discoveries.

Elves do a different kind of magic than the one taught in Circles, as Solas explicitly says to an elven mage Inquisitor. Eluvians being elven artifacts, the magic needed to unlock them must be elven or connect to elven magic in some way or another. Which is still closer to an Dalish mage than Morrigan, however apostate or unorthodox her magic is. However, I do agree that it is possible Flemeth left that knowledge for Morrigan to find.

I don't agree that Keepers intend to bury knowledge; Dalish clans trying to make a living in the woods simply don't have the resources to try to preserve the little knowledge they have and may find, and research for discoveries at the same time. Marethari wants Merrill to let the Eluvian rest as it has done enough damage to their clan and she thinks nothing good can come out of it and it's not worth the risk; turns out she's right. If there was a time when elves had the power and knowledge to deal with a tainted eluvian, it's certainly not now.

#147
EmissaryofLies

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More experienced? Yes. She's an old soul who was the apprentice to a deity. A gap is to be expected. 

 

Merrill wants it more though; she will catch her.


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#148
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I doubt she's more intelligent, what Morrigan has over Merrill is a better education and better access to resources. 



#149
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What's really a shame is that the Arbor Wilds/Flemeth stuff was actually meant for the DA2 Expansion originally. I don't know if Morrigan was supposed to appear in it though. That would have been pretty great though, because then we'd get to see Morrigan and Merrill interact.


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#150
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What's really a shame is that the Arbor Wilds/Flemeth stuff was actually meant for the DA2 Expansion originally. I don't know if Morrigan was supposed to appear in it though. That would have been pretty great though, because then we'd get to see Morrigan and Merrill interact.


I would love to drown Merrill in the Well of Sorrows.