434 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

I'd love to see a conversion between the two. I think it'd be interesting.

[ThePhoenixKing]

I'd love to see a conversion between the two. I think it'd be interesting.

 

Definitely. It'd be the sorceress version of the Odd Couple, or like the Cassandra Cain/Stephanie Brown friendship. All the more reason why it needs to be written.

[GoldenGail3]

Definitely. It'd be the sorceress version of the Odd Couple, or like the Cassandra Cain/Stephanie Brown friendship. All the more reason why it needs to be written.

I know; it'd be awesome! (Just I'd pefer it if Merril was rivaled when they met; image how ansty a Rivalmanced Merill would be around Morrigan, a person who had a full Eluvian!)

[myahele]

Excluding the fact that Flemythal has plans for Morrigan, she simply has lot more opportunities than Merrill.

 

Her association with Asha'Bellanar means that Morrigan can somewhat be accepted into some Dalish clans, being a human means access into many human institutions: circles, royal court, etc without much question.

[thats1evildude]

Eh, i'd take Merrill anyday of the week.

I'd like to take her too. DO HO HO

[Master Warder Z_]

Necro thread is necro 

[Aren]

Eh, i'd take Merrill anyday of the week.

 

I wonder,why they didn't used Merril for the temple of Mythal? It would have made sense to have her there

she could have been introduced to the inquisition by Hawke

[Gaia300]

Merrill doesn't seem to be so incompetent about elven magic when she do things like that... her eduaction about elven lore was better than the one of Morrigan.

Spoiler

In DAO main game Morrigan never demonstrated to have any  interest in the elves or their history..

[myahele]

Another thing to consider is motivation. Merrill is/was focused on restoring the Eluvian; thus most of her focus was on that.

 

Morrigan's focus is to re-discover lost magics and knowledge ... but mostly for power. If Keiran is alive then it's mostly to protect him. But even then Morrigan is naturally curious about many things and not merely just Elvhen stuff.

[sniper_arrow]

 

I wonder,why they didn't used Merril for the temple of Mythal? It would have made sense to have her there

she could have been introduced to the inquisition by Hawke

 

 

I think this was supposed to be one of the plots of the cancelled Exalted March DLC for DA2. I recall that it was supposed to take place in the Arbor Wilds/Temple of Mythal. 

 

 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

In that case there isn't because as i said it isn't about culture it is simple about being dumb enough to not recognize that someone is lying.

It depends on the ability of the liar.
Afterall in DAO there is the possibility
to trick Morrigan with a good Persuasion (not even so good just few points) and she doesn't realize the lie and even can possibly fall in love because of that lie (if you do not complete the quest Morrigan status cannot reach love) .
Does this make Morrigan dumb?
Being able to detect a lie it depends more on the ability of the liar unless your attitude is to not give trust to anyone from the start.
The warden can trick Morrigan very easly, but is unable to do that with people like Lanaya or Leliana and Wynne(if you defile the ashes then return to camp the warden fail to trick Leliana and Wynne into believing that the ashes are still fine) no matter the level of persuasion.
Does this make Leliana and Wynne better than Morrigan in this aspect in being able to detect a lie?

[TheKomandorShepard]

It depends on the ability of the liar.
Afterall in DAO there is the possibility
to trick Morrigan with a good Persuasion (not even so good just few points) and she doesn't realize the lie and even can possibly fall in love because of that lie (if you do not complete the quest Morrigan status cannot reach love) .
Does this make Morrigan dumb?
Being able to detect a lie it depends more on the ability of the liar unless your attitude is to not give trust to anyone from the start.
The warden can trick Morrigan very easly, but is unable to do that with people like Lanaya or Leliana and Wynne(if you defile the ashes then return to camp the warden fail to trick Leliana and Wynne into believing that the ashes are still fine) no matter the level of persuasion.
Does this make Leliana and Wynne better than Morrigan in this aspect in being able to detect a lie?

 

LoL , dont even compare that , in first place there is difference between that Morrigan didn't had information about her mother fate, you had evidence to back it up and still there was requirement as you claim to be skillful manipulator in order to do so , compared to Merril pure stupidity where she had knowledge that warehouse was fine but still failed to comprehend that it was very obvious and simple deception.

 

Wrong , you can lie to Leliana by using persuasion (sometimes even without) first when you "cheat" on her that you didn't sleep with Morrigan/Zevran and second if you didn't take her to the urn and defiled it you can keep her when she starts question you about urn and you can lie.While Wynne can't be lied about Ashes because somehow she knows what you did. 

[Han Shot First]

You could literally replace Morrigan's name with [insert anything here] and the answer to the OP's question would still be yes. 

 

Even Anders.

[SmilesJA]

No, in fact Morrigan was made a fool out of at the end of the game.

[Andromelek]

You could literally replace Morrigan's name with [insert anything here] and the answer to the OP's question would still be yes.

Even Anders.

Not if you change it for Sera/Iron Bull/ Oghren/Leliana/Alistair/Cailan then answer it's either no or "X" is more competent/inteligent but Merrill is more inteligent/competent.

Edit: I forgot about Fiona

[Han Shot First]

Not if you change it for Sera/Iron Bull/ Oghren/Leliana/Alistair/Cailan then answer it's either no or "X" is more competent/inteligent but Merrill is more inteligent/competent.

 

All of them are more intelligent than Merrill. 

 

Merrill is the least intelligent character we've met in Thedas. That includes talking dawkspawn and Mabari. 

[SmilesJA]

All of them are more intelligent than Merrill. 

 

Merrill is the least intelligent character we've met in Thedas. That includes talking dawkspawn and Mabari. 

 

[sniper_arrow]

All of them are more intelligent than Merrill. 

 

Merrill is the least intelligent character we've met in Thedas. That includes talking dawkspawn and Mabari. 

 

The hate is strong on this one.

[Han Shot First]

The hate is strong on this one.

 

I don't hate the character. In fact I have no strong emotional reaction towards Merrill either way.

 

She was however written to be a character who is not very intelligent. So much so, that we've yet to run into a character in the series who exhibits that particular flaw to a greater extent. 

 

That people even argue that she wasn't incompetent and/or a bit daft is only because was a romance option for Hawke, and that LI status causes some people to put blinders on to their waifu's flaws.

[dragonflight288]

Not true Han.   I love Merrill and am not blind to her faults at all. 

 

I gave a rather lengthy discussion of her back in 2012, and its points (minus the updated information on eluvians) that discusses her ethics, intelligence and the thread brought up that she suffers culture shock, but she is very insightful and is quite sarcastic. A lot. Her sarcasm often goes over people's heads though. 

 

Here's a link to the thread.  http://forum.bioware...rill-evil-crazy

 

Now, I'm going to quote myself from that thread.

 

It's a wall of text so prepare yourselves people. 

 

 

I wrote....

I haven't read the whole thing, I haven't even read the most recent posts, but here's my humble opinion on Merrill and the whole Dalish thing there. 

It is my personal belief that people are more than free to choose their own way in life. But they must also accept the consequences of their own actions. Merrill is perfectly responsible for herself. Pol was responsible for his own actions. Merethari was responsible for hers. 

Now, playing as a Dalish or asking the storyteller in Origins what the Dalish do, I believe the Dalish have a three-fold mission. The entire point of being a Dalish is to do this.

1. Seek out and recover aspects of elven culture and artifacts. They wander throughout the world, always on the lookout to restore their lost culture, their lost technology, regain their immortality. Eluvians are an ancient elvish artifact that Tevinter was only able to turn into fancy telephones. 

2. Seek out a land to call their own. A home.

3. Teach the city elves the old ways, as they had forgotten. 

With those three aspects of the Dalish mission, it's obvious the Dalish are all about rebuilding their empire, or at least rebuilding their lost culture.

Now let's look at the eluvians as we see them in the game. Three total. The first we see is in the Dalish origin. Duncan confirms that it is tainted by the darkspawn. He calls it a Tevinter artifact and destroys it to try and contain the taint. But as a Grey Warden, I would hardly call him an expert of ancient elvish technologies, but he is an expert on the taint. Merrill and Merethari are both interested in studying it, but Merethari backs out on it because she too afraid of the darkspawn and the taint itself. She wants nothing to do with it. Merrill feels that if they can learn to understand the mirror, they can find Tamlen again. Originally it has nothing to do with glory or rebuilding the lost legacy, but helping out her clan. 

She takes a shard and contains it somehow as they travel North to Kirkwall. 

The second eluvian we come across is the one Morrigan activates. Morrigan calls it a portal beyond the realm of men, beyond the Fade. She sent her son through it already, trusting him to be safe. She stole a Dalish book that taught her everything she needed to know about the eluvians (which is ironic because the Dalish themselves couldn't read it, having forgotten the elven tongue and script.) Morrigan admits that it wasn't easy to activate the mirror. She and my Warden disappear into it

The third eluvian we come across is the one Merrill is building from scratch. She isn't repairing the one Duncan destroyed, that's still in Ferelden, tainting elves who come across it. All Merrill has is a shard. Gaider confirmed that Merrill extrapolated information from the shard, researched elvish lore on eluvians extensively, and started building her own based entirely on her research. Merrill admits that if she had lyrium (which the Chantry has a monopoly on the trade) she could have cleansed the shard without blood magic. If Merethari helped her, together they could probably have done it. 

But at this point, Merethari absolutely refuses to have anything to do with eluvians, blaming the mirror itself for the loss of two hunters, and fears that Merrill will bring back the taint itself. She even tells the entire clan this tale. Never mind that Merrill cleansed the shard, stayed in close proximity to it, and no one was tainted. Proof that she succeeded. 

Merethari also told the entire clan that Merrill was a blood mage. Now Pol is a city elf and was raised in an Andrastian society. His views on blood magic skews his common sense. He was more afraid of Merrill, who would only make frowny faces at him than he was of the Varterral, and ran to his death. But Pol still chose for himself to run towards danger. Merrill had nothing to do with it. All she did was say hi. 

Before I move onto act 3 and the destruction of the entire clan, I would like to focus on the short story before the game, and the demon itself. Merrill and Merethari both can hear the demon when they first arrive on Sundermount. It's influencing them, speaking directly to their heads, and they both recognize it. So they investigate. And it becomes stronger the closer they get to the demon. They find the demon trapped outside the Fade (and significantly weaker than he would be otherwise) and sealed within the buddha statue. Merethari says that the demon is perfectly harmless within the statue and they leave. 

Merrill returns to the demon later, having no access to lyrium and Merethari refusing to help with anything to do with the eluvians (and Merethari's unamplified magic was able to combat the taint in the Dalish Warden, at least temporarily.) Without lyrium or aid, Merrill asks the demon to teach her blood magic, which he does. She uses blood magic to amplify her own power and cleanses the shard entirely, and the taint, which is what Merethari fears, is now no longer an issue. Merrill leaves and the demon is still trapped. 

Now the demon influences people based on their proximity. The short story makes that very clear. So when Merrill went to Kirkwall, she literally had no contact with the demon anymore. Everything she did from that point was on her own. She did her own research, studied the shard, and started building a new eluvian from scratch...probably making her the world's greatest authority on eluvians, with Morrigan probably being one of the only people who can activate them (Finn might be able to do it.)

Merethari, however, still is on Sundermount, and is still being influenced by the demon. She is in closer proximity than Merrill is. And she refuses to touch anything related to the eluvians. She says their ancestors would probably want them buried away (as if she would know that,) and talks about how the mirror cost them two of their hunters. And it wasn't even the mirror itself that did that, but the darkspawn taint. That's no longer an issue. 

I don't deny that Merrill had a lot of pride. There's a reason she trumps everyone in the Fade when it comes to the Pride demon (although I think the Pride demon is mind controlling her as they are in the Fade where demons are most powerful....and everyone gets mind controlled except Justice, who is a Spirit.) But Merethari was also incredibly prideful as well. Her status as Keeper and her power as a mage would give Audacity everything he would want from a mage. Add in her ability to free him. Based on power and proximity, Merethari is the most likely target of the demon over the course of seven years. 

Now onto the Eluvians themselves. We know they are ancient elven artifacts (point one in the mission of the Dalish). We know Tevinter wasn't able to get what Morrigan did out of them. All they had was communication devices. But imagine this, if every clan had an eluvian, Merethari and the Dalish could have contacted another clan within hours of losing their halla and receive aid and leave within a year, based on the distance of the other clan. It would solve a lot of the problems the Dalish on Sundermount faced. If a clan discovers something big, instead of waiting every ten years when they meet, all the clans could know about it within a day. Same thing if the Dalish found a home. The potential benefits are enormous. 

The biggest problem in the game, at least from my perspective, is that Hawke is forced into making a decision to support Merrill or stop her from placing herself in unnecessary danger without knowing all the facts. Hawke has no idea what it means to be Dalish. He has no real clue what an eluvian actually does, So we the players need to form our own opinions based on our own interpretations at this point. 

Now I'm going to do a quick synopsis on the integrity and characters of Merrill and Merethari. All in one quest. The hunt for the Varterral. Merrill comes to the clan, and invoked a Dalish rite to get access to the tool (can't remember the name off the top of my head.) Merethari agrees to give it to Merrill in exchange for slaying the Varterral. Hawke and Merrill fulfill their end of the bargain, running into Pol and potentially gathering the amulets of the three dead hunters and returning them. Merethari immediately gives it to Hawke and tells Hawke not to give it to Merrill. The deal wasn't with Hawke, but with Merrill. In addition, Merethari admits to telling the clan that Merrill was bringing back the darkspawn taint, despite not being near them for three years, left of her own volition, and cleansed the shard. 

Merethari tried to break the bargain. Merrill upheld her end of it. 

Now onto Act 3 and the death of the clan. Like I said at the beginning of this wall of text, everyone is an individual capable of thinking for themselves, but must accept the consequences of their actions. Merethari chose to tell the clan that Merrill was a blood mage (true) and that she would bring back the taint (false), and then invited Merrill to return after the entire clan now hates her (audacious and ridiculous.) Merethari refused to touch any lore or research anything regarding eluvians, feeling the whole thing was cursed and tainted, so she actually knows less than Hawke does about eluvians at this stage in the game. Hawke at least knows they were used as communication devices by Tevinter. Merrill did her research, exercised every route she could think of to building the eluvian and activating it. And when all avenues were taken and found to be dead ends, Merrill knew going to the demon was the literal last option. So she makes arrangements with Hawke and friends to accompany her to Sundermount. She tells an aggressive Hawke that only a very powerful spell could free the demon, and she has no intention of doing that. 

And should the worst come to pass anyway, Hawke would kill Merrill. Merrill made preparations to the best of her ability, and even had a fail-safe should things go amiss. 

Now at this point, the player can either tell Merethari what we're doing or ignore her. If we tell Merethari, she races up Sundermount ahead of us, and frees the demon. If we do not, then Merethari couldn't have beaten us up there and was an abomination all along. 

Abomination-Merethari comes along and tells us that the demon would use the Eluvian to free itself and possess Merrill that way (and I admit that it is feasible that the demon would try and play Merrill, and trick her into connecting the Eluvian to the statue and not to the place Morrigan went) but I seriously question this statement made by her. 

For one thing, why on earth...er, Thedas, should I trust someone who refused to look into eluvians all these years? And at this point, the demon could simply be trying to mess with Merrill's head. Merethari knew squat about eluvians. She wanted nothing to do with them. Merrill had built one up from scratch, and only needed to learn how to activate it. 

Would she have succeeded, would the demon come through? Would she have a telephone? A portal to meet Morrigan? We'll never know at this point. Thanks to Merethari. We the players simply cannot say what would've happened. There's no way to find out. Merethari unleashed the demon without backup, thereby putting the entire clan and Kirkwall in danger. Refused to listen that the taint was no longer a threat, and was in close proximity to the demon for a decade, being influenced constantly, as shown in the short story. 

Granted, Merrill's tunnel vision and pride kept her from listening to other people warning her about the dangers of the eluvian and the demon, but she took precautions. She had contingency plans and a decade of research to support her. 

So, Merethari, as an adult, is full accountable for her own actions. She chose to free the demon. She may have fought the demon and was forcibly possessed, she may have allowed the demon to possess her to keep it from helping Merrill, but she went on her own, and paid the price for it. Merrill is not responsible for that. 

As for the clan's deaths, should Hawke tell the truth, that's on their heads as well. They fired the first arrow, and struck the first blow. Merrill was mourning and they didn't care. And even if you take accountability for it and let them live, if you return with Merrill, they still attack on sight. They want Merrill dead. Their anger and hate, possibly influenced by the demon as well as Merethari telling them that Merrill was dangerous, and their pride, kept them from seeking the truth for themselves. It was entirely their choice to attack. Merrill didn't attack them, they attacked her. 

And they can pay the price for their own choices. 

[In Exile]

You're still wrong about Merrill's role in the Audacity debacle, by absolving her evident shortsightedness. Her sin of pride is self-importance. Merrill thinks she matters, and that's her half of the contribution to the ultimate situation. Merrill is inept because she can't understand or predict even the most basic way in which someone who is a surrogate mother acts. If people capable of thinking for themselves have to accept responsibility for their actions, then Merrill has to accept responsibility for hers, and her absolutely reckless neglect of the self-evident possibility that maybe Audacity isn't after her at all amounts to clear culpability. 

 

I don't think Merrill is wrong in trying to outwit a demon to rebuild an Eluvian. I think Merril's an idiot for not considering the most self-evident of all possibilities here, which is that Audacity has a Plan B to "Posses Merrill". It doesn't exactly take a Herculean exercise in imagination to consider this possibility. 

 

And that ignores the sheer awful selfish insanity of what Merrill plans: asking her best friend or lover to execute her in cold blood as a back-up. People do not dwell on how gut-wrenching awful is this plot. Again, Merrill's notionally asking her best friend/lover to effectively decapitate her or burn her alive or whatever if things go wrong. Here's the sum of the conversation:

Merrill: ... And so, Hawke, if things go wrong, I want you to set me on fire and watch as my eyes turn to jelly and the flesh burns to a crisp off my face. Oh, I hope you do eventually forget the smell of your lover's burnt flesh. Anyway, steak for dinner? 

Hawke: 

 

This degree of social ineptitude is what leads people to think that Merrill's an idiot.  

[Donquijote and 59 others]

LoL , dont even compare that , in first place there is difference between that Morrigan didn't had information about her mother fate, you had evidence to back it up and still there was requirement as you claim to be skillful manipulator in order to do so , compared to Merril pure stupidity where she had knowledge that warehouse was fine but still failed to comprehend that it was very obvious and simple deception.

 

Wrong , you can lie to Leliana by using persuasion (sometimes even without) first when you "cheat" on her that you didn't sleep with Morrigan/Zevran and second if you didn't take her to the urn and defiled it you can keep her when she starts question you about urn and you can lie.While Wynne can't be lied about Ashes because somehow she knows what you did. 

Edit for Leliana i never saw the scene but you are correct,it require persuasion to fool her (not even so high)

Still the warden was able to fool Morrigan while wasn't capable to do that with Wynne

does this make Wynne less dumb than her?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

You're still wrong about Merrill's role in the Audacity debacle, by absolving her evident shortsightedness. Her sin of pride is self-importance. Merrill thinks she matters, and that's her half of the contribution to the ultimate situation. Merrill is inept because she can't understand or predict even the most basic way in which someone who is a surrogate mother acts. If people capable of thinking for themselves have to accept responsibility for their actions, then Merrill has to accept responsibility for hers, and her absolutely reckless neglect of the self-evident possibility that maybe Audacity isn't after her at all amounts to clear culpability. 

 

I don't think Merrill is wrong in trying to outwit a demon to rebuild an Eluvian. I think Merril's an idiot for not considering the most self-evident of all possibilities here, which is that Audacity has a Plan B to "Posses Merrill". It doesn't exactly take a Herculean exercise in imagination to consider this possibility. 

 

And that ignores the sheer awful selfish insanity of what Merrill plans: asking her best friend or lover to execute her in cold blood as a back-up. People do not dwell on how gut-wrenching awful is this plot. Again, Merrill's notionally asking her best friend/lover to effectively decapitate her or burn her alive or whatever if things go wrong. Here's the sum of the conversation:

Merrill: ... And so, Hawke, if things go wrong, I want you to set me on fire and watch as my eyes turn to jelly and the flesh burns to a crisp off my face. Oh, I hope you do eventually forget the smell of your lover's burnt flesh. Anyway, steak for dinner? 

Hawke: 

 

This degree of social ineptitude is what leads people to think that Merrill's an idiot.  

Which is not accurate since she predicted that audacity  may wanted to possess her,but she was not willing to renounce to this project and the pursuing to restore the eluvians,she  took the risk to rebuild a new whole Eluvian and she succeeded and absorbed the knowledge for the benefit of all the elves..

 

With the new information gained from Inquisition, I question how dangerous the Spirit was to Merrill at all.

 

Someone a while back posted a list of events with the choice of how to handle the Mirror was in Merrils hands, as compared to when it was in Marethari's hands.

 

It really got across how well Merrill planned and was prepared for nearly every contingency (Including the possibility of her own possession, insisting that it would require her death as soon as possible), and how quickly Marethari mucked it up and immediately got possessed.

 

 

Marrill is naive, innocent, ignorant of customs outside of the dalish, and stubborn. But she is NOT stupid. Certainly not in matters involving magic and spirits,and no i don't think she is an idiot.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Which is not accurate since she predicted that audacity  may wanted to possess her,but she was not willing to renounce to this project and the pursuing to restore the eluvians,she  took the risk to rebuild a new whole Eluvian and she succeeded and absorbed the knowledge for the benefit of all the elves..

 

With the new information gained from Inquisition, I question how dangerous the Spirit was to Merrill at all.

 

Someone a while back posted a list of events with the choice of how to handle the Mirror was in Merrils hands, as compared to when it was in Marethari's hands.

 

It really got across how well Merrill planned and was prepared for nearly every contingency (Including the possibility of her own possession, insisting that it would require her death as soon as possible), and how quickly Marethari mucked it up and immediately got possessed.

 

 

Marrill is naive, innocent, ignorant of customs outside of the dalish, and stubborn. But she is NOT stupid. Certainly not in matters involving magic and spirits,and no i don't think she is an idiot.

 

 

LoL , predicting that audacity may wanted to possess her is akin to predicting that you will die if you jump of the cliff it is grasping obvious. She didn't succeed, in fact she got screwd by toying with demon (as she was before if you took her to the fade) and would got even moreso if not Marethari that took bullet for her.

 

"Spirit" (you mean demon) was very dangerous unless you are telling me that it trying to possess Merril and then trying kill her and hawke is being harmless.

 

It was for certain much more safe in Marethari hands than in Merril that proved she couldn't handle demons demons twice and was nothing but puppet to them.

 

Not rly , she didn't plan a damn outside grasping obvious and it was something Hawke and Marethari and pretty much almost every companion was constantly telling her and even then she failed to think what would have happen if demon killed hawke. In fact her little brain had problems to comprehend that her actions affect others not only her. So yes Merril is an idiot, it took her 7 years of being told she is one to her to get it and if friend even 7 years didn't do that.  

 

 

 

Edit for Leliana i never saw the scene but you are correct,it require persuasion to fool her (not even so high)

Still the warden was able to fool Morrigan while wasn't capable to do that with Wynne

does this make Wynne less dumb than her?

 

 

 

No , because Wynne simply knew that you defied ashes (don't ask how) thus you can't lie her about something she already knows , Morrigan only source of her mother fate is you and by that you can lie to her.  

[Donquijote and 59 others]

LoL , predicting that audacity may wanted to possess her is akin to predicting that you will die if you jump of the cliff it is grasping obvious. She didn't succeed, in fact she got screwd by toying with demon (as she was before if you took her to the fade) and would got even moreso if not Marethari that took bullet for her.

 

"Spirit" (you mean demon) was very dangerous unless you are telling me that it trying to possess Merril and then trying kill her and hawke is being harmless.

 

It was for certain much more safe in Marethari hands than in Merril that proved she couldn't handle demons demons twice and was nothing but puppet to them.

 

Not rly , she didn't plan a damn outside grasping obvious and it was something Hawke and Marethari and pretty much almost every companion was constantly telling her and even then she failed to think what would have happen if demon killed hawke. In fact her little brain had problems to comprehend that her actions affect others not only her. So yes Merril is an idiot, it took her 7 years of being told she is one to her to get it and if friend even 7 years didn't do that.  

 

 

 

 

No , because Wynne simply knew that you defied ashes (don't ask how) thus you can't lie her about something she already knows , Morrigan only source of her mother fate is you and by that you can lie to her.  

Aside from the fact that i pretty much completely disagree on every point you made for Merrill and Marethari and Audacity "which is a spirit of pride for the Dalish elves since they do not make a difference between  spirits and  demons which Solas already explained are just conversions/transformations of the same beings which doesn't make sense and isn't even properly argumented,on Wynne case she cannot be lied on pretty much anything by the warden and can't be fooled while Morrigan can,that's just show your bias for particular characters even when they demonstrated undeniable quality,in this case for Wynne being an amazing  detector when it comes to lies,yes i ask for why she was capable to do that,simply  becuase she detected the warden actions and the warden wasn't capable to hide anything,she didn't go to look for proof on the top of the mountain.