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[Master Warder Z_]

The 3rd, I think. Rome basically punched Macedon in the face, split it up into a bunch of client states and went home. That is what I had in mind when talking about the Elven strategy anyway.

They were at war again twenty years later.

[MoonDrummer]

They were at war again twenty years later.

I didn't say it was a good plan. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No. What we get in The Knight's Tomb is the start. What we get there is how it started, it doesn't give us details about what happened after. Besides, even that codex TELLS US that they massacered the villagers, so I am not sure what you are getting at....

 

The whole of the event at Red Crossing WAS the start. What the the Codex TELLS US is that nobody knows what happened. The traditional history the Chantry tells is that the elves raided the village. The Knights Tomb tells us that's not what happened. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The whole of the event at Red Crossing WAS the start. What the the Codex TELLS US is that nobody knows what happened. The traditional history the Chantry tells is that the elves raided the village. The Knights Tomb tells us that's not what happened. 

That is EXACTLY what happened. Though it may not have been intended as such, they ended up killing the villagers, despite they only wanted to retrive their knight.

[Master Warder Z_]

The whole of the event at Red Crossing WAS the start. What the the Codex TELLS US is that nobody knows what happened. The traditional history the Chantry tells is that the elves raided the village. The Knights Tomb tells us that's not what happened.

But the elves did raid the village.

o...o because apparently "stupid sexy humans"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They didn't kill all the villagers or burn it to the ground. They only killed the ones that attacked and even then in self defense. 

[Caddius]

Rome was generally tolerant of other cultures and religions in the empire, so long as they paid their dues.

An exception was Judea. After a series of misunderstandings, disputes, desecration of Jewish holy sites and the like, there was a long series of bitterly fought rebellions. In the end, Judea was dismantled as a country, its people dispersed into the Diaspora, and the territory renamed after the Philistines as a 'FU' to the Jews. They left a single wall of the Temple standing, and tore down almost everything else in Jerusalem. Jews ended up scattered across Eurasia, often living in ghettos for protection, trying to hold on to what traditions they could. Periodically, pogroms would sweep through towns, and Jews would be harassed, robbed, and killed. (I guess the Khazars would sort of fit the wandering Dalish tribes, they just weren't Jewish at the time of the fall.)

That was the fate of the Dales. And that's how it differs from the Romans conquering Macedon and Greece (after many a war with Macedon   ), or Orlais expanding its territory by taking in new territory and new subjects.

I don't think the Dalish were intending to wipe out Orlais as a nation, or the Chantry. They wanted to break Orlais as quickly as possible and force a truce. By sacking Montsimmard and the seat of the Chantry, they'd show that the Dalish were not to be messed with, and make Orlais negotiate for peace and pulling back from the Dales' territory. Maybe they'd grab some more land off of Orlais. Details on the war here are scarce, and a lot of us are theorizing. Ethnic cleansing doesn't make sense as a goal for the elves for pragmatic reasons. They lack the population to spread across that land, and they seem content being a hermit kingdom. Orlais is a large, racist, expansionist, militant religious empire that borders a kingdom of elven pagans. Ethnic cleansing, while horrible, is entirely in character and pragmatic for them.

*shrug*

[Boost32]

They didn't kill all the villagers or burn it to the ground. They only killed the ones that attacked and even then in self defense.

Lol, they killed a innocent girl, the villagers reaction was normal, instead of fleeing they just killed the villagers, dont três to make them as victim.

[Master Warder Z_]

All I'm going to say on this:

Foreign nationals, soldiers no less, ilillegally trespassing on sovereign soil of another land, murdering it's citizenry to me is as a good as declaration of war as the invasion that shortly followed there after.

That's it to me.

The elves are in the wrong, for not handing over the criminals and then for following their blind stupidity into war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

Lol, they killed a innocent girl, the villagers reaction was normal, instead of fleeing they just killed the villagers, dont três to make them as victim.

 

They killed a woman by accident. Then killed more people in self defense. It's basically the same as how Hawke and Merrill can kill her clan. I'm also pretty sure most people who'd argue that the humans were justified it attacking the elves in this case would also argue the Sabrae Clan had it coming if Hawke kills them. 

 

But I'm not one of those people, so my point is that was a conflagration of violence that got out of hand despite the intentions of both sides.

 

 

All I'm going to say on this:

Foreign nationals, soldiers no less, ilillegally trespassing on sovereign soil of another land, murdering it's citizenry to me is as a good as declaration of war as the invasion that shortly followed there after.

That's it to me.

The elves are in the wrong, for not handing over the criminals and then for following their blind stupidity into war.

 

So... then the Chantry must be the one who struck first because the humans refused to hand over the ones who murdered Siona's sister.

[Bad King]

The belief of the Dalish is that if they keep away from humans long enough, their immortality will return. Therefore, the elves of the Dales wouldn't have tolerated humans living in a conquered Orlais.

At best, displacement. At worst, genocide. Or the other way around, depending on one's point of view.

 

As has already been pointed out on this thread, the idea that the Dalish attack on Orlesian cities was part of a greater plot to ethnically cleanse/displace the Orlesian human population is an assumption lacking in evidence: the whole assumption rests on the idea that the elves were planning on annexing the territories they attacked which is also unsubstantiated. 

[Master Warder Z_]

No?

It claimed she was slain for wandering to far on to the hunting trails.

That's it, it offers no insight into events beyond that, or indeed what led to her death.

At best you can infer she died trespassing into Orlesian lands.

So why would I count the Chantry at fault for a event there is no proof they were involved in, little lone, whomever slaying her wasn't justified.

It's a question that's ultimately not relevant either way.

[Boost32]

They killed a woman by accident. Then killed more people in self defense. It's basically the same as how Hawke and Merrill can kill her clan. I'm also pretty sure most people who'd argue that the humans were justified it attacking the elves in this case would also argue the Sabrae Clan had it coming if Hawke kills them. 
 
But I'm not one of those people, so my point is that was a conflagration of violence that got out of hand despite the intentions of both sides.
 

 

 
So... then the Chantry must be the one who struck first because the humans refused to hand over the ones who murdered Siona's sister.

Accident? BS, you cant accidentaly kill someone when you **** that person aiming to kill her.
Those elves were criminas who invaders foreign soul, it wasnt self-defense. If a police officer try to kill a armed bandit but the officer is killed instead, the bandit cant claimed self-defense.

Hawke didn't invaded the Dalish lands, he had permission of Marethari, Hawke killed Marethari after she as a abomination attacked him, it was self-defense.
The elves werent wrong trying to kill Merrill, they were wrong when they attacked the whole party, giving her to the dalisg to face justice should be a option, if Hawke refused he would be wrong in killing the elves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

No?

It claimed she was slain for wandering to far on to the hunting trails.

That's it, it offers no insight into events beyond that, or indeed what led to her death.

At best you can infer she died trespassing into Orlesian lands.

So why would I count the Chantry at fault for a event there is no proof they were involved in, little lone, whomever slaying her wasn't justified.

It's a question that's ultimately not relevant either way.

 

It specifically says the they killed her. It also suggests the motive for her murder was Chantry anger. And no, it doesn't necessarily follow she was trespassing. Especially since there aren't any clear border lines in Thedas. It also most certainly is relevant. She was the first innocent person killed in the story. And she's also apparently the only one who was killed with purely malicious intent.

 

Accident? BS, you cant accidentaly kill someone when you **** that person aiming to kill her.
Those elves were criminas who invaders foreign soul, it wasnt self-defense. If a police officer try to kill a armed bandit but the officer is killed instead, the bandit cant claimed self-defense.

Hawke didn't invaded the Dalish lands, he had permission of Marethari, Hawke killed Marethari after she as a abomination attacked him, it was self-defense.
The elves werent wrong trying to kill Merrill, they were wrong when they attacked the whole party, giving her to the dalisg to face justice should be a option, if Hawke refused he would be wrong in killing the elves.

 

The death of Adalene was specifically a misunderstanding. Hawke and Merrill were involved in an event that resulted in the death of their Keeper. They tried to bring them both to justice, Hawke killed the all in response. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

They didn't kill all the villagers or burn it to the ground. They only killed the ones that attacked and even then in self defense. 

Other sources dispute that, and the source you cling to, doesn't even prove they didn't. So until you can come up with proof that they DIDN'T kill the entire village, then all we have to go on, is that they did indeed kill the entire village, since that is what all the sources say.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Other sources dispute that, and the source you kling to, doesn't even prove they didn't. So until you can come up with proof that they DIDN'T kill the entire village, then all we have to go on, is that they did indeed kill the entire village, since that is what all the sources say.

 

The other sources are inaccurate and based off of incomplete information centuries after the fact. That's the point of revealing the truth in the Knight's Tomb. It was contemporary account from people who were there.

[Boost32]

The death of Adalene was specifically a misunderstanding. Hawke and Merrill were involved in an event that resulted in the death of their Keeper. They tried to bring them both to justice, Hawke killed the all in response.

They didn't give her a chance, they murdered her in cold blood, no warning or warning shot, only a arrow through the chest.

Hawke was involved, but he was not guilt, the guilt part was Merrill, she derserved any pinishment they would give to her, Hawke don't.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They didn't give her a chance, they murdered her in cold blood, no warning or warning shot, only a arrow through the chest.

Hawke was involved, but he was not guilt, the guilt part was Merrill, she derserved any pinishment they would give to her, Hawke don't.

 

It's not cold blood if they thought she was attacking. Hawke helped Merril. If she is guilty, he/she is an accomplice. 

[Master Warder Z_]

It specifically says the they killed her.

But it offers no evidence.

Not even paltry evidence.

There was no witness, there was no proof, there was only speculation.

A body was found.

That's it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The other sources are inaccurate and based off of incomplete information centuries after the fact. That's the point of revealing the truth in the Knight's Tomb. It was contemporary account from people who were there.

Which doesn't offer any details on this particular matter (it does however say they killed the villagers, no numbers). Yet Codex Entry: The Exalted March offers a highly critical take on the Orlesian claims, yet STILL says that the ENTIRETY of Red Crossing was killed. So until you can prove that they didn't kill them all, we are gonna have to assuem that they did.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's not cold blood if they thought she was attacking

That's a matter of debate.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Which doesn't offer any details on this particular matter (it does however say they killed the villagers, no numbers). Yet Codex Entry: The Exalted March offers a highly critical take on the Orlesian claims, yet STILL says that the ENTIRETY of Red Crossing was killed. So until you can prove that they didn't kill them all, we are gonna have to assuem that they did.

 

No we don't have to assume that. It's still based on a variant of the story the Chantry told for 700 years. It still assumes certain things happened that the Knight's Tomb suggests did not. The Death of Elandrin does in fact offer details. It says the men of the village attacked the elves and were defeated. Then it says more human soldiers quickly arrived and killed Elandrin.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No we don't have to assume that. It's still based on a variant of the story the Chantry told for 700 years. It still assumes certain things happened that the Knight's Tomb suggests did not. The Death of Elandrin does in fact offer details. It says the men of the village attacked the elves and were defeated. Then it says more human soldiers arrived and killed Elandrin.

The Knight's Tomb does NOT suggest that. It doesn't specify. What we KNOW from that codex entry, is that the Dalish DID actually kill villagers. Other sources suggest the amount. All of them. NO SOURCE even suggests that it was only a couple of villagers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Knight's Tomb does NOT suggest that. It doesn't specify. What we KNOW from that codex entry, is that the Dalish DID actually kill villagers. Other sources suggest the amount. All of them. NO SOURCE even suggests that it was only a couple of villagers.

 

I didn't say it was just a couple. But they definitely didn't kill everyone in the village. The Chantry version of history that suggests they did is false. Either embellished or exaggerated or forgotten over the centuries. The Chantry also claimed the elves practiced blood sacrifices with the people there and we know that didn't happen.

[Boost32]

It's not cold blood if they thought she was attacking. Hawke helped Merril. If she is guilty, he/she is an accomplice.

Yes it is, they has no evidence she was attacking.
My Hawke never helped Merrill, he was with Merril at the request of Marethari, he never helped her with any kind of ritual (kind the opposite in fact).