807 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

I didn't say it was just a couple. But they definitely didn't kill everyone in the village. The Chantry version of history that suggests they did is false. Either embellished or exaggerated or forgotten over the centuries. The Chantry also claimed the elves practiced blood sacrifices with the people there and we know that didn't happen.

Based on WHAT? You don't know how many were killed. Certainly not from the Knight's Tomb entry. It doesn't specify at all. What we got are sources saying that the entirety of the village was killed. And that is what is sticking until proven otherwise.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes it is, they has no evidence she was attacking.
My Hawke never helped Merrill, he was with Merril at the request of Marethari, he never helped her with any kind of ritual (kind the opposite in fact).

 

She ran towards them yelling with something in her hand. It's not a completely unreasonable conclusion to jump to. Especially since the Siona was presumably quite emotional because her sister had just been murdered by humans and also mistakenly believing that Adalene had turned her brother against them.

 

If Hawke is there assisting Merrill he's party to whatever her plan is, even if reluctantly. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Based on WHAT? You don't know how many were killed. Certainly not from the Knight's Tomb entry. It doesn't specify at all. What we got are sources saying that the entirety of the village was killed. And that is what is sticking until proven otherwise.

 

Because they didn't attack the village. The people who were in the village attacked them. That would include only the men who were able to fight and willing to immediately charge into the dark after them. There were also enough fighting men left over to immediately kill Elandrin.

 

You were suggesting they burned the village to the ground and wiped out every man woman and child. That is obviously not what the story says.

[Boost32]

She ran towards them yelling with something in her hand. It's not a completely unreasonable conclusion to jump to. Especially since the Siona was presumably quite emotional because her sister had just been murdered by humans and also mistakenly believing that Adalene had turned her brother against them.
 
If Hawke is there assisting Merrill he's party to whatever her plan is, even if reluctantly.

Thats is not, if someone run towards a cop with something in his/her band, the cop will point his weapon and tell to this person to stop, if he shoot first he is a murderer, like those elves. Siona being emitonally unstable does not justify her.

Again, you have the option to tell Marethari what Merrill is doing and she tells you to foi with her and stop her, so my Hawke wasnt assisting her at all, he was going to stop her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Because they didn't attack the village. The people who were in the village attacked them. That would include only the men who were able to fight and willing to immediately charge into the dark after them. There were also enough fighting men left over to immediately kill Elandrin.

 

You were suggesting they burned the village to the ground and wiped out every man woman and child. That is obviously not what the story says.

That is EXACTLY what HISTORY says. I don't give a damn about what details are missing from some Dalish story. History tells us that Red Crossing was attacked, a minor skirmish happening between a handful of farmers and Emerald Knights, is not an attack. Red Corssing was MASSACERED. If it wasn't, then the Chantry would have a hard time spreading propaganda about dark rituals, since people could just go there and SEE for themselves. So until, as I have said many times by now, you can PROVE that the Dalish didn't destroy Red Crossing, then they DID destroy it. Since that is what ALL sources going into detail on teh matter says.

[KaiserShep]

Hawke was involved, but he was not guilt, the guilt part was Merrill, she derserved any pinishment they would give to her, Hawke don't.

 

Well, Hawke knew about the deal with the demon, and Merrill's blood magic, so s/he would be guilty by association as far as the Dalish are concerned, though they are surprisingly lenient if Hawke simply owns up to Merrill's mistake and takes responsibility for her blood magic.

 

If the Dalish had insisted that Hawke hand Merrill over, that might be a different story, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be, since the Dalish don't hold trials, and do not have the facilities to imprison one of their own, so they'd either kill on the spot or exile permanently.

[Boost32]

Well, Hawke knew about the deal with the demon, and Merrill's blood magic, so s/he would be guilty by association as far as the Dalish are concerned, though they are surprisingly lenient if Hawke simply owns up to Merrill's mistake and takes responsibility for her blood magic.

If the Dalish had insisted that Hawke hand Merrill over, that might be a different story, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be, since the Dalish don't hold trials, and do not have the facilities to imprison one of their own, so they'd either kill on the spot or exile permanently.

And Hawke can report it to Marethari, who tells him to go with Merrill and stop her, and thats what my Hawke was going to do.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That is EXACTLY what HISTORY says. I don't give a damn about what details are missing from some Dalish story. History tells us that Red Crossing was attacked, a minor skirmish happening between a handful of farmers and Emerald Knights, is not an attack. Red Corssing was MASSACERED. If it wasn't, then the Chantry would have a hard time spreading propaganda about dark rituals, since people could just go there and SEE for themselves. So until, as I have said many times by now, you can PROVE that the Dalish didn't destroy Red Crossing, then they DID destroy it. Since that is what ALL sources going into detail on teh matter says.

 

So basically it boils down to you believing whatever the Chantry says because the Chantry says it. I keep saying that the "history" you keep appealing to as infallible is unreliable. Even the codex you cite to prove your point freely admits that nobody knows what happened because it was hundreds of years ago. But an account by the people who were there is just "some Dalish story" if it says something different. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

So basically it boils down to you believing whatever the Chantry says because the Chantry says it. I keep saying that the "history" you keep appealing to as infallible is unreliable. Even the codex you cite to prove your point freely admits that nobody knows what happened because it was hundreds of years ago. But an account by the people who were there is just "some Dalish story" if it says something different. 

No, it boils down to logical deduction, and consolidation of fragmetns of the story. The account that you cling so desperately to, DOESN'T go into details that you claim, yet you preach it like gospel. And when other sources, based on sources from that time, even ones HIGHLY critical of the Chantry's version, claims that the entire village was killed. Then it is only hearsay, fabrications and propaganda. Tell me again, who here is biased?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No, it boils down to logical deduction, and consolidation of fragmetns of the story. The account that you cling so desperately to, DOESN'T go into details that you claim, yet you preach it like gospel. And when other sources, based on sources from that time, even ones HIGHLY critical of the Chantry's version, claims that the entire village was killed. Then it is only hearsay, fabrications and propaganda. Tell me again, who here is biased?

 

It does go into details. Far more detail than yours actually. It gives names of people who died and explains which groups of people fought in the battle and where it happened, even how it happened in some cases. I have far better reason to "preach" it than you do yours. "The Death of Elandrin" is from the Glory Age by people who were actually there. It is also critical of elven mistakes so you can't even claim yours is less biased. "The Exalted March of the Dales" is from 9:12 by a scholar who only has the Chantry version of events to analyze. And we know the Chantry has been historically biased when it comes dealing with the matter, both by claiming the elves sacrificed the people of Red Crossing in blood magic rituals to appease the Elven Gods and by removing the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant and trying to erase him from history.

 

I'm appealing to a first hand account from the same time period.

 

You're appealing to an account written by someone almost 700 years after the fact analyzing a history that was propagated by the victors of the war. In fact all the other sources you claim corroborate your account are also written centuries after the fact.

 

The information in the Knights Tomb the is obviously the more reliable of the two. The fact that you'd dismiss a first hand account written by elves as "hearsay, fabrications, and propaganda" because it contradicts established history written by humans hundreds of years later is absurd. 

 

The Knight's Tomb even has a letter written by Elandrin himself where he reveals his motives. He didn't even care about the Elven Gods or the Maker. He only claimed he converted because the humans would not trust him otherwise.

[Master Warder Z_]

So again it comes back to the "stupid sexy humans" argument.

[dragonflight288]

So again it comes back to the "stupid sexy humans" argument.

It's actually about stupid, racist and uninformed humans.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's actually about stupid, racist and uninformed humans.

No.

Some jealous elf ****** was like "Ain't no human taking my man!"

And then raided a village.

[Boost32]

It's actually about stupid, racist and uninformed humans.

How they dare attack innocents elves who only killed a woman and were invading their lands, humans are all racists

[MisterJB]

It's actually about stupid, racist and uninformed humans.

 

The elves were the ones who entered foreign territory because they feared one of their own would convert to Andrastianism and then shot a Chantry sister carrying flowers.

Not that I particularly care, but it's obvious who was being racist, stupid and uninformed.
 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

But it offers no evidence.

Not even paltry evidence.

There was no witness, there was no proof, there was only speculation.

A body was found.

That's it.

 

It doesn't say any of that. It says the Chantry killed her. It doesn't get into any detail about how they know, but it does say they do know. That's not really the point of the story. There is no reason to doubt the author. For all you know, there were witnesses. It's a ridiculous double standard to demand proof from this one detail of this one codex out of all of them.

 

How they dare attack innocents elves who only killed a woman and were invading their lands, humans are all racists

 

You know, only one elf was responsible for that. So by your own logic from the previous page, the humans were wrong to attack the entire group.

[Lumix19]

Which doesn't offer any details on this particular matter (it does however say they killed the villagers, no numbers). Yet Codex Entry: The Exalted March offers a highly critical take on the Orlesian claims, yet STILL says that the ENTIRETY of Red Crossing was killed. So until you can prove that they didn't kill them all, we are gonna have to assuem that they did.

I would point out here that the implication seems to be that Orlais was willing to sacrifice the village to gain a pretext for war. Now we know the elves actually did fight some of the villagers but it is possible, in my mind, that when soldiers came to investigate they killed the rest of the village and blamed the elves for it.

[dragonflight288]

How they dare attack innocents elves who only killed a woman and were invading their lands, humans are all racists

How dare the humans blame the elves for defending themselves after they (the humans) killed an Emerald Knights sister.

Two can play that game.

[Master Warder Z_]

It doesn't say any of that.

It literally says all of that.

It states the Chantry killed her, but then it offers nothing to substantiate the claim.

It's no double standard to look at the situation and point nothing was stated to indicate it was anything but a assumption.

And given how the she elf in a jealous rage killed the female who threatened her with flowers it's obvious who the uninformed racist was.

Seriously, flowers look like weapons?

At least a toy gun can look real in the dark.

Then the she elf in a drunken rage of social injustice and racism slaughtered the poor towns people who rushed to avenge a member of their church.

Honestly...how is this hard to comprehend?

[Master Warder Z_]

How dare the humans blame the elves for defending themselves after they (the humans) killed an Emerald Knights sister.

Two can play that game.

And one can win it.

You can beat a elf to death in public and not be punished in any civilized nation in Thedas.

Ah...social structure as it should be.

[Boost32]

How dare the humans blame the elves for defending themselves after they (the humans) killed an Emerald Knights sister.
Two can play that game.

Were those humans the ones who killed her sister? Dont think so.
Were those elves who killed the woman? Yes, they are.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ancient elves seem to be lulz evil

[myahele]

What's done is done.

 

but wasn't it the elves of Halamshiral that caused riots, forced humans out of their homes (maybe even killed some) when Empress Celene gave them more rights?

[Master Warder Z_]

Modern elves just seem to be selfish and stupid

[Dark Helmet]

Gee it's almost like the elves have a consistent history of shooting themselves in the foot and then acting like victims about it...

 

Some people make careers out of being victims, they would be in AWE of the elves.