807 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

Dwarves has alot of things going for them to kill them.

 

The Dales existed for a few centuries, more than enough time to establish trade relations and other forms of diplomacy.

[Drasanil]

Some people make careers out of being victims, they would be in AWE of the elves.

 

Where's elfSharpton when you need him

 

Actually, wait, no. That would just make things so much worse.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's not a prayer for her. It's a prayer for him. For the one they betrayed to find his happiness in the afterlife. His happiness is her. They recognize that. That does not mean they value her as anything other than the object of his affection.

Again, the fact that they never even use her name indicates that they don't see her as anything but an extension of him.

Nothing suggests that they would care about her death if it wasn't part of their betrayal. Nothing suggests they mourn the lives already lost at Red Crossing.

You are arguing that we should ignore the multiple codex entries that say the people of Red Crossing were massacred and cite a source that specifically tells us that it it's not the whole story as proof that it never happened.

"Even though it says it doesn't tell us what happens after his death, since it doesn't tell us the people were massacred after his death, they couldn't have been massacred after his death, because they would tell us if they were massacred after his death."

No.

Just no.

 

Praying for both of their souls to meet up again is still in part praying for her. 

 

You are also definitely strawmaning my position. Because even if they did only see Adalene as an extension of Elandrin's happiness, her death is important because it would be part of the sorrow of betraying Elandrin. The same would apply to her home where he wanted to spend his life with her.

 

And that's why they would mention wiping out Red Crossing afterward. "It was not the end" doesn't mean there is more to the story about Red Crossing.

 

And you're arguing that the we should rely on the one codex entry that does say the people of Red Crossing were massacred that also explicitly tells us nobody knows what happened. 

[In Exile]

It's not a prayer for her. It's a prayer for him. For the one they betrayed to find his happiness in the afterlife. His happiness is her. They recognize that. That does not mean they value her as anything other than the object of his affection.

Again, the fact that they never even use her name indicates that they don't see her as anything but an extension of him.

Nothing suggests that they would care about her death if it wasn't part of their betrayal. Nothing suggests they mourn the lives already lost at Red Crossing.

You are arguing that we should ignore the multiple codex entries that say the people of Red Crossing were massacred and cite a source that specifically tells us that it it's not the whole story as proof that it never happened.

"Even though it says it doesn't tell us what happens after his death, since it doesn't tell us the people were massacred after his death, they couldn't have been massacred after his death, because they would tell us if they were massacred after his death."

No.

Just no.

The source DOES tell us it was a massacre. They fell on the elves, but were no match. Do people think that means the elves used their kung-fu to peacefully disarm them and then left, noble heroes to a fault?

[Drasanil]

The source DOES tell us it was a massacre. They fell on the elves, but were no match. Do people think that means the elves used their kung-fu to peacefully disarm them and then left, noble heroes to a fault?

 

Yes?

 

 

 

Kidding.

[Eliastion]

The source DOES tell us it was a massacre. They fell on the elves, but were no match. Do people think that means the elves used their kung-fu to peacefully disarm them and then left, noble heroes to a fault?

Now please don't misunderstand. I do think there were casualties in this whole mess, but it's NOT stated clearly in the codex. Still, if you would just claim that there had to be dead villagers right there, I'd leave it alone, I find it quite probable after all. But you claim that this codex excerpt proves that there were a massacre... so let me present following hypothetical situation:

A bunch of villagers with little in department of weaponery and less still where it comes to battle training, attack a bunch of elven knights (in proper if light armors plus appropriate weapons). The knights that realize that they just killed a defenseless girl and are somewhat conflicted about it. So when the villagers attack, they defend themselves, but do it somewhat relustantly. The first villager gets a gauntlet in the face. The second a pommel strike into the stomach. The third one has a weapon so the attacked elf gets serious and runs him through with a sword. Seeing blood the villagers lose their spirit, seeing as they're clearly outclassed in everything but numbers (if even in that) they start to panic and run away. The elves don't pursue.

Here you have it: did the humans fall on the elves? Yes they did. Were they a match for the elves? No, they were not. Was it a massacre? Well, one broken nose and one villager cut down - that doesn't count as a massacre even if you include the dead girl too. In fact, I could even make a scenario where no villager died, but I like this one better - 'tis more dramatic this way  

 

Let me repeat myself: I don't think that's how it went, I personally believe this encounter was bloody. Or if it wasn't then there was a bloody encounter when "more humans came". But I try to separate interpretation from source material and the fact is that this particular codex entry mentions exactly three dead people: Siona's sister, Elandrin and Adalene. Any deaths above that, no matter how probable, remain in the realm of conjecture and interpretation.

[Master Warder Z_]

Conjecture and interpretation.

The defense of the pro elves for years

[Steelcan]

Conjecture and interpretation.
The defense of the pro elves for years

not like they can rely on lore and in game evidence

[Master Warder Z_]

not like they can rely on lore and in game evidence

Well they could for plenty of such lore exists, it just makes their position untenable.

[Eliastion]

Conjecture and interpretation.

The defense of the pro elves for years

More like: the flesh of any lore-related discussion ever. It's still important to try and keep track of what is stated in the sources, what is the interpretation of said sources and what's the interpretation of the whole picture based on interplay of various sources as well as their credibility.

It's somewhat depressing how often people can't come to understanding even when it comes to the first part - what certain available sources say.

One would think that the arguments shouldn't start below the interpretation level...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well they could for plenty of such lore exists, it just makes their position untenable.

Damn sexy humans....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The source DOES tell us it was a massacre. They fell on the elves, but were no match. Do people think that means the elves used their kung-fu to peacefully disarm them and then left, noble heroes to a fault?

 

Ok the whole root of this particular argument is that I argued that both sides were at fault for the situation escalating out of control and that the elves didn't destroy the whole town because they wanted all humans dead. 

 

The point I was trying to make is that the story of "a party of elves went to Red Crossing to retrieve one of their own and then killed many of the town militia in self defense after a misunderstanding that spiraled out of control" is a very different story than "a party of elves went to Red Crossing with the intent destroy the entire town so they razed it to ground and wiped out every man, woman and child."

[Boost32]

Ok the whole root of this particular argument is that I argued that both sides were at fault for the situation escalating out of control and that the elves didn't destroy the whole town because they wanted all humans dead. 
 
The point I was trying to make is that the story of "a party of elves went to Red Crossing to retrieve one of their own and then killed many of the town militia in self defense after a misunderstanding that spiraled out of control" is a very different story than "a party of elves went to Red Crossing with the intent destroy the entire town so they razed it to ground and wiped out every man, woman and child."

Your point is wrong, because it wasnt a misuderstanding and it wasnt self-defense.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If you kill someone because you mistakenly think they are attacking you it was a misunderstanding. If someone attacks you and you fight back it was self defense. That is exactly what happened.

[Master Warder Z_]

You still get charged with second degree murder usually even in "misunderstanding"

Manslaughter in the first at best.

[raging_monkey]

You still get charged with second degree murder usually even in "misunderstanding"

Manslaughter in the first at best.

unless it's a "stand your ground" state lmao I'm sorry

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

You still get charged with second degree murder usually even in "misunderstanding"

Manslaughter in the first at best.

 

Yes. So? That's beside the point I was making. I wasn't arguing she was right to kill Adalene. Being charged with manslaughter is not the same as being charged with premeditated mass murder. I also notice you seem to switch between judging a situation from a modern perspective and a medieval perspective when it suits you.

[Drasanil]

If we're judging Red Crossing by Medival standards, killing those peasants isn't even proper murder it's just a property crime against their liege. A simple fine/recompense would suffice to remedy the matter, its not like those Emerald Knights did anything truly ghastly like trying to annex Red Crossing for the Dales after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes. So?

So the reaction they got for the murder shouldn't be written off for anything but what it was.

There isn't no two sides to it.

A woman died with a elven arrow in her and well theatrics aside it was a blatant and deliberate use of lethal force.

And considering they came in a armed force premeditation is established.

They were going to kill someone period.

[Master Warder Z_]

unless it's a "stand your ground" state lmao I'm sorry

That's only if you can establish reasonable certainty to risk of your own life, that's not applicable when your trespassing on held property and killing the inhabitants.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So the reaction they got for the murder shouldn't be written off for anything but what it was.

There isn't no two sides to it.

A woman died with a elven arrow in her and well theatrics aside it was a blatant and deliberate use of lethal force.
 

 

Manslaughter and murder are not the same crime. And if a mob of people swarmed out to try to kill the associates of someone guilty of manslaughter, even though they themselves weren't guilty of it, that would also be against the law.

 

And considering they came in a armed force premeditation is established.

They were going to kill someone period.

 

Premeditation would require them to go in specifically with the intent of killing Adalene. They did not. In fact the codex says they didn't go in with the plan to kill any humans. So no, basically it's exactly the exact opposite of what you said.

 

Of course this is also all completely besides the point I just made. Even if you believe attacking a village is exactly the same as being nearby and being attacked by some of them, the elves didn't wipe out the whole village. 

[raging_monkey]

That's only if you can establish reasonable certainty to risk of your own life, that's not applicable when your trespassing on held property and killing the inhabitants.

Idk it sounds reasonable they were doing something and I felt scared lol

[Master Warder Z_]

Idk it sounds reasonable they were doing something and I felt scared lol

It wouldn't be under that law then.

Stand your ground only works somewhere you have legal right to be.

[Steelcan]

If we're judging Red Crossing by Medival standards, killing those peasants isn't even proper murder it's just a property crime against their liege. A simple fine/recompense would suffice to remedy the matter, its not like those Emerald Knights did anything truly ghastly like trying to annex Red Crossing for the Dales after all.

. Uhhhhhh no?

Peasants are not serfs nor are they slaves. They have rights, whether they are acknowledged is another matter, but even under the Danelaw in England free individuals had inherent value independent of their status as a vassal or under the protection of a higher lord.

And yes, the Dales then tried to annex all of Orlais

[Eliastion]

If we're judging Red Crossing by Medival standards, killing those peasants isn't even proper murder it's just a property crime against their liege. A simple fine/recompense would suffice to remedy the matter, its not like those Emerald Knights did anything truly ghastly like trying to annex Red Crossing for the Dales after all.

 

Oh god. This post killed me  

 

Although, frankly, that would be modern Orlais, then it was much more barbaric, I think. I believe they still held to some strange ideas then, like peasants being people and other uncivilized nonsense.