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The Elves keep bringing about their own destructiion


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#376
EmperorSahlertz

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As far as we know, they all DO have a standing army - but it's relatively small, its numbers definitely need to be bolstered for any serious war effort, the regular forces are there to deal with bandits, border patrol and random problems of similar scale. Full mobilization takes time, but time generally is available since the enemy needs to mobilize too - and it's hard to accomplish such a feat in secret.

Still, the "how" likely differs a lot. In Orlais when they lack volunteers, then the press-gang just comes and drags you out of your bed if they must. In Ferelden such a thing would be unthinkable - but nationalism there and feeling of communal responsibility is much stronger, it's THEIR country rather than the noble's who want them to fight for someone else's case - recruitment is to much greater extent (let's not say fully, that would be naive) voluntary, but refusal of call to arms likely bears significant stigma. Tevinter likely relies on volunteers from the common people, duty-bound mages and, well, slaves who have as much of a say in this as you would expect.

 

Though, for clarity's sake, these are mostly my suppositions based on what we know of structure of various societies. Apart from Orlais we have little knowledge about the way particular nations go about recruiting. 

I sincerely doubt the Fereldan peasant has any more choice on the matter than an Orlesian....



#377
Eliastion

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I sincerely doubt the Fereldan peasant has any more choice on the matter than an Orlesian....

I'm pretty sure you would be wrong. In Ferelden even paying of taxes is somewhat voluntary - or at the very least it's the freeholder's choice who he pays his taxes to. Of course, we can assume that if you don't pay your taxes to a local lord who has an army to protect the area, accidents may happen, but that tells something about the general mindset. In a society structured like that I can't really see a mass-conscription by force working out. You can proclaim mobilization and there could be some customary "at least one person from every household" rule people traditionally obey (while stigmatizing cowards who don't do that without a damn good reason), but actual forced conscription on larger scale? Nah-ah. Too little power lies with the nobles, too much with the populace.

At least that's my personal assessment.



#378
Br3admax

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No, you're the one in the wrong. Even in Origins taxes and widespread conscription still happened, and regularly. 



#379
Master Warder Z_

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No, you're the one in the wrong. Even in Origins taxes and widespread conscription still happened, and regularly.


Yup

#380
Deztyn

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I'm somewhat impressed by your rational approach,  so I'll try and point a couple mistakes you make in your reiteration of the codex. I myself - as I already stated in the post above - am quite sure that IF Red Crossing has indeed been massacred, it happened after the events described in the codex, likely when the all-out war started. Though I don't really believe that too. In my opinion the most probable chain of event is: a brief small-scale fight between the elves and people of Red Crossing occured, there were casualties and as the word of incident spread, fear and distrust progressively added more and more gory details to it until it became a massacre of the town.
But that is just my interpretation, other possibilities exist: like Red Crossing getting burned down during the war or even being sacrificed for propaganda. There is also possibility that the elves mourned for their fallen comrade and then proceeded to slaughter the village. But I find it highly unlikely, seeing the general tone found in his memorial, where pretty much all the blame for Elandrin's and his lover's death is put on Siona...

 
The problem with that interpretation is that the residents of Red Crossing would have noticed that they were never massacred, even if no one else did. The town still exists, presumably not with descendants of it’s original residents, but if there were survivors I think that the truth would have gotten out. The people would have their own records. Their grandbabies would wonder how it was that grandma lived in Red Crossing her whole life when she was born in 2:02 and so on.

I do agree that it's possible that Red Crossing wasn't properly massacred until later.
 

So, with that out of the way, let me correct you on a couple things concerning this particular codex entry and its context. Not all my corrections are entirely pro-elven, though most are: I'm afraid that there is no such thing as objectivity and you do exhibit a noticeable anti-elven bias. Still, I like your approach, I wish more people would behave like you. Regardless of what they think about elves :D
Now, I would be careful with this classification. There are two issues - the "contemporary" account is, obviously, much closer to the times where the events took place, but it's not as close to them as it might seem. The tomb holds memorials of multiple other Emerald Knights, who obviously died during the war and not in a single battle either, after all. This is an important aspect I'll get back to.
This can also mean that the memorial itself is - even unconsciously - a manipulation, since if any amount of time passed between the events and writing them down... well. Time takes its toll on memory. And then there is the fact that it was written to preserve the truth that might otherwise be corrupted... The urge to include at least a little bit of interpretation rather than raw facts would likely be strong. How exactly and to what extent did this influence this account? Assuming it's 100% accurate is a big leap of faith. Even if it is a memorial. 
For all we know, it could be - in extreme case - some BS written with the sole purpose to whitewashing Elandrin and blaming the whole incident on Siona ;)

 

I’ve never claimed that it was the definitive account. But the war only lasted about a decade, his memorial may not have been written within days of his death, but it wasn’t written centuries later. There is a relatively short window of time during which the elves would be in a position to build such a monument and the people who built it would either have been there or known the people who were.

 

Siona also gets her own tributes. Her epitaph doesn’t read “That trigger happy cow who started it all”. She’s remembered as a hero of the war, a great defender, while Elandrin has his memorial hidden away. His death is the one that shames them.

 

While you're mostly right, elves obviously felt threatened by Chantry's attempts at... what's the Chantry-equivalent word for Christianization? Either way, turning an elf away from elven tradition in that situation doesn't really seem to be as harmless as you portrait it. Given the apparent role of Emerald Knights - defending Dales from contamination by human influence - turning to the Chantry and converting to Maker does seem like a serious betrayal that is likely to escalate... I guess Chantry-elven relations were religiously paranoid on both ends.

 
I never said her fears were harmless. I suggested they were unfounded and irrational. She is making assumptions. She is assuming that he intends to convert. She is assuming that if he converts he will betray them. Spill their secrets. Lead the humans against them. These assumptions seem to be based entirely on his body language when she sees him with a human woman. Whether she would be justified in her fears if she had been correct is another matter entirely.
 

You generally notice ambiguity in the codex, but missed it here. In fact, the only casualty mentioned so far is that one girl. Humans were no match - but could've been driven away (especially if they weren't appropriately armed). The codex doesn't really mention killing a single one of them. While I do think there probably were casualties, codex doesn't mention them not only on the elven side.

 
You are correct that the villagers weren’t explicitly killed. But it is very much implied. The only realistic alternate explanation is that the knights let them run away, giving them the opportunity to properly arm themselves and get reinforcements, then waited by the bodies of the fallen/incapacitated until more humans arrived. In that scenario the elves are acting beyond stupid. Now, I am not entirely adverse to that interpretation, but it’s one that most people who defend the elves usually frown on. :D
 

The events at Red Crossing led ultimately to the full-scale war - they definitely were not the end. And, as I mentioned earlier, the source material likely was created quite a bit after Elandrin's death, during the war, long after the events escalated out of proportion. Basically, while an interpretation "it was not the end of events Red Crossing" is possible, I find it more likely that what this refers to is what came later and was, at least partially, related to what was probably the first "elven attack on human settlement" - regardless of the actual death toll of said attack, regardless of how intentional the attack was. Elves fought humans at the outskirts of their town/village - that is the one unambiguous part. And it definitely could be considered a step up in hostilities from occasional skirmishes with bandits, chasing away missionaries or a couple hunters or traders who ventured into the woods never to return.

As a final note, there is one important problem with the classic "many accounts of massacre" argument - they're not really many accounts. It's one account, the Chantry history that became common knowledge. Much like every Dalish Keeper recounting old tales doesn't really count as seperate source, human scholars tend to fall back on the official history rather than their own findings. Perhaps the closest we have to an independent human source would be this song http://dragonage.wik...in_Red_Crossing
that appeared who-knows-when and changed who-knows-how... and hardly describes anything, even if it really is originally from correct place and period (and created by someone with any amount of first- or even second-hand knowledge).


My point, which still stands, is that the Death of Elandrin does not contradict the Chantry account, despite some people claiming otherwise. They can exist side by side, so no one can claim the one they don’t like must be wrong.

It’s possible that the events described are the massacre, with the details later exaggerated, since at least some must survive to tend to the bodies. It’s possible the real massacre happened later. It doesn’t say definitively either way.



#381
Eliastion

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Oh joy. I should stop frequenting the forums, they only introduce me to inconsistencies I somehow managed to miss on my own :P 

And I'll have to go look it up or something. I don't suppose you have an idea where I could come about these particular rumors?

 

Though, for clarification sake: I didn't mean it that there were no taxes, just that it's not like just living in specific place determines who you offer your support (mostly in the form of taxes) to. Presumably you could potentially avoid taxes altogether (just by choosing no lord) but in practice that would be asking for trouble. Especially since owing fealty to no-one wouldn't stay a secret for long. Not a good combination with being eligible to no protection from any of the local forces that could offer it.



#382
Deztyn

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Praying for both of their souls to meet up again is still in part praying for her. 
 
You are also definitely strawmaning my position. Because even if they did only see Adalene as an extension of Elandrin's happiness, her death is important because it would be part of the sorrow of betraying Elandrin. The same would apply to her home where he wanted to spend his life with her.
 
And that's why they would mention wiping out Red Crossing afterward. "It was not the end" doesn't mean there is more to the story about Red Crossing.


That is almost exactly your position. That since this codex entry never says it happened, it couldn't have happened. You are completely ignoring the fact that it is a memorial to him, specifically. You are assuming that because they feel guilty about the death of one of their own, they MUST feel guilty about the deaths of the villagers. And that those deaths can not have happened because they would have felt guilty enough about them to mention it in their memorial to Elandrin.

They clearly hate humans. Which is why they assumed that if he was around them he would betray all of them and help the humans kill them. That is spelled out in the codex entry. Just because they realize too late that he is not a traitor and was motivated only out of love for a human woman does not mean that the hatred that caused them to fear the consequences of his assumed betrayal cease to exist.

Adalene was the person Elandrin loved. She was the person he died for. She was the person they felt guilty about killing, not necessarily because she was an innocent. But because she was his love. You are assuming that the Knights would feel some sympathetic connection to the rest of humanity because of it. There's no reason to assume that at all.

Let me put it this way: In my last playthrough of DA2 my Hawke felt mildly guilty for killing Merrill, but she didn't give a damn about the rest of the mages she slaughtered. If she were to write a memorial for Merrill it would not include how rightous she was to have chosen to side with the Templars and annul the Circle, she wouldn't go on about how the First Enchanter was a blood mage all along, or how she spared a few of the mages. She certainly wouldn't have talked about how wonderful Merrill was for championing the innocent mages.

It would just talk about how bad she felt to have been turned against a friend by circumstances.

 

And you're arguing that the we should rely on the one codex entry that does say the people of Red Crossing were massacred that also explicitly tells us nobody knows what happened.

 
No. I am arguing that you can't use this one codex entry as an excuse to ignore the other. They are not mutually exclusive.



#383
Master Warder Z_

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Bodahn, Various Tavern barmen

#384
Boost32

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If you kill someone because you mistakenly think they are attacking you it was a misunderstanding. If someone attacks you and you fight back it was self defense. That is exactly what happened.

If you kill someone because of a mistake you still a murderer.
Criminals cant claim self-defense right after they comitted a crime.

#385
Deztyn

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The source DOES tell us it was a massacre. They fell on the elves, but were no match. Do people think that means the elves used their kung-fu to peacefully disarm them and then left, noble heroes to a fault?

 

 

:lol:

The old codex entries say that no one in Red Crossing was left alive. This one suggests that there were people enough to tend to Adalene and discard Elandrin. So I concede that Orion could be correct in that much, but he seems to draw the conclusion that if this incident isn't THE massacre, then there was no complete massacre.

Either way, yeah, it was a lot of death.

 

 

 

They didn't go there looking for a fight. It probably wouldn't have been necessary. It's unlikely the villagers would have cared to stop them doing from reclaiming an elf they probably didn't even trust. And even if they had wanted to, it's also unlikely the elves trying to take him would have provoked such a violent reaction (one that lead to a battle) as Adalene's death did.

 

Except as far as the Emerald Knights were concerned they weren't reclaiming an elf that the villagers didn't trust. They were capturing a traitor who was joining their Chantry and spilling all of their secrets. Someone who would have tremendous value, if their suspicions had been true.

 

They went there with enough forces to guarantee they could remove him without dying themselves if the villagers chose to defend him. Even if they somehow didn't expect the humans to defend him. They could certainly expect them to act aggressively when a group of heavily armed elves enters their village at night.

 

I really don't see how anyone can dispute this.



#386
Jedi Master of Orion

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That must be why they showed up in full battle regalia..... To NOT fight... Yeah... That makes sense....... If you are an Elf...

 

Preparing for a fight if necessary or dressing up with the hope of avoiding one with a show of force is obviously not the same as showing up specifically intending to start a battle. It's seriously not even slightly hard to understand. You seem to be deliberately going out of your way to miss my point. 


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#387
Jedi Master of Orion

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Except as far as the Emerald Knights were concerned they weren't reclaiming an elf that the villagers didn't trust. They were capturing a traitor who was joining their Chantry and spilling all of their secrets. Someone who would have tremendous value, if their suspicions had been true.

 

They went there with enough forces to guarantee they could remove him without dying themselves if the villagers chose to defend him. Even if they somehow didn't expect the humans to defend him. They could certainly expect them to act aggressively when a group of heavily armed elves enters their village at night.

 

I really don't see how anyone can dispute this.

 

That hardly means there still would definitely have been a battle. Especially if they were well armed enough that they though the humans wouldn't risk their lives for him.

 

That is almost exactly your position. That since this codex entry never says it happened, it couldn't have happened. You are completely ignoring the fact that it is a memorial to him, specifically. You are assuming that because they feel guilty about the death of one of their own, they MUST feel guilty about the deaths of the villagers. And that those deaths can not have happened because they would have felt guilty enough about them to mention it in their memorial to Elandrin.

They clearly hate humans. Which is why they assumed that if he was around them he would betray all of them and help the humans kill them. That is spelled out in the codex entry. Just because they realize too late that he is not a traitor and was motivated only out of love for a human woman does not mean that the hatred that caused them to fear the consequences of his assumed betrayal cease to exist.

Adalene was the person Elandrin loved. She was the person he died for. She was the person they felt guilty about killing, not necessarily because she was an innocent. But because she was his love. You are assuming that the Knights would feel some sympathetic connection to the rest of humanity because of it. There's no reason to assume that at all.

Let me put it this way: In my last playthrough of DA2 my Hawke felt mildly guilty for killing Merrill, but she didn't give a damn about the rest of the mages she slaughtered. If she were to write a memorial for Merrill it would not include how rightous she was to have chosen to side with the Templars and annul the Circle, she wouldn't go on about how the First Enchanter was a blood mage all along, or how she spared a few of the mages. She certainly wouldn't have talked about how wonderful Merrill was for championing the innocent mages.

It would just talk about how bad she felt to have been turned against a friend by circumstances.

 

Their mistrust of humans was what lead them to make the mistakes they did, and the memorial is recognizing they were wrong to take that path because of it.

 

The mages aren't Merrill's people. Her Dalish Clan is. And even that isn't exactly a perfect analogue since she is an exile and they can only die trying to kill her.  If they all die she is devastated. A better equivalent example would be that a Hawke who cares about her would also cares about that. 

 

Also a Hawke that only feels mildly guilty for killing Merrill doesn't sound like they were close to begin with so that analogy falls apart completely. 

 

Another part of the reason I also think this codex supersedes the other is from a meta perspective. Prior to the game coming out, the exact circumstances of the start of the war between the Dales and Orlais was one of the mysteries of the setting. Even the precise events in Red Crossing were never quite clear (which is something that particular codex reiterates). DAI made a point of answering many questions. When an ancient tomb just so happens to be written specifically to shed light on the events of that very town at the start of the war (even saying in universe that this was written so the truth wouldn't be forgotten), I think the intent of this piece of lore on Bioware's part was to answer the old question of how the war started and who struck first.



#388
Sunnie

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Wow, 10+ pages of circular arguments. Done ran out of popcorn 6 pages ago!



#389
Master Warder Z_

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I made burgers

#390
Sunnie

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I suppose I could make some Nachos...



#391
Jedi Master of Orion

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This isn't even fun for me, so might as well just stop bothering to round and round. It's what happens with just about every argument on BSN about any issue. And I'm also pretty sure I've done that arguing from both sides of the whole Orlais/Dales thing.



#392
Master Warder Z_

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At least no one has mentioned social injustice yet

#393
Lumix19

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At least no one has mentioned social injustice yet


Well technically you just did.

#394
Master Warder Z_

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Well technically you just did.


Not in a pro elfy sort of thing

#395
RobRam10

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No.

I was referring to a event centuries since the first blight and the fall of the Imperium as a world dominating power.

Truly what a tragic event the end of a Golden Era.



#396
Joe25

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So the Dalish are like the Goths and the Romans, burning down culture faster than a fiver year-old with matches. 



#397
Steelcan

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So the Dalish are like the Goths and the Romans, burning down culture faster than a fiver year-old with matches. 

>the Romans and Goths destroyed culture

 

good one



#398
Deztyn

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That hardly means there still would definitely have been a battle. Especially if they were well armed enough that they though the humans wouldn't risk their lives for him.

 
So your argument is that it's not the elves fault there was a battle because they sincerely believed that the humans -- who hated them and who they hated, who believe they make blood magic sacrifices of people they abduct, and who they've been fighting with in small conflicts off and on for a century or so-- would allow them to walk into their village and take one of their converts without a fight?  :wacko:
 
Just walking into that village would provoke a fight. They should know that better than anyone, because their main job as Emerald Knights was to fight or drive off any humans who entered their lands.
 
Or do you think if a band of human soldiers entered an elven village and tried to carry off someone against their will, the elves would have just shrugged their shoulders and gone about their day? And that is an action that they could have reasonably been expected to take?
 
Please. They would have fought to the death if the humans had tried to take a damn Halla. Been massacred as elves should be. And everyone would codemn the humans for having persecuted the helpless little things.
 

Their mistrust of humans was what lead them to make the mistakes they did, and the memorial is recognizing they were wrong to take that path because of it.

 
No.
 
It was their mistrust of Elandrin.
 
"Though you swore to serve our people, there were those questioning your heart."
 
That is what they are recognizing. That is what they feel guilty about. That is what their memorial is an apology for. Nothing in the text indicates they feel remotely guilty or apologetic for not trusting humans, or think their mistrust of humans was unjustified.
 
You are projecting the elves feelings about Elandrin onto humanity.
 

The mages aren't Merrill's people. Her Dalish Clan is. And even that isn't exactly a perfect analogue since she is an exile and they can only die trying to kill her.  If they all die she is devastated. A better equivalent example would be that a Hawke who cares about her would also cares about that. 
 
Also a Hawke that only feels mildly guilty for killing Merrill doesn't sound like they were close to begin with so that analogy falls apart completely.


Uh. Sure. If Hawke violently hated the Dalish to the point of believing that just being associated with the Dalish made Merrill a threat to him and possibly deserving of death, then yes, that would be a better analogy. Not sure that Hawke would care about the Dalish deaths much in that case though. :P

And of course they weren't that close. If they were Merrill would have slaughtered the mages right along with her. <3
 

Another part of the reason I also think this codex supersedes the other is from a meta perspective. Prior to the game coming out, the exact circumstances of the start of the war between the Dales and Orlais was one of the mysteries of the setting. Even the precise events in Red Crossing were never quite clear (which is something that particular codex reiterates). DAI made a point of answering many questions. When an ancient tomb just so happens to be written specifically to shed light on the events of that very town at the start of the war (even saying in universe that this was written so the truth wouldn't be forgotten), I think the intent of this piece of lore on Bioware's part was to answer the old question of how the war started and who struck first.

The point you either keep missing or are determined to ignore is that this codex doesn't have to supersede the others. It can quite comfortably exist right along side it. You just don't want it to.



#399
Deztyn

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This isn't even fun for me, so might as well just stop bothering to round and round. It's what happens with just about every argument on BSN about any issue. And I'm also pretty sure I've done that arguing from both sides of the whole Orlais/Dales thing.

 

Pfft.

 

Quitter.

 

I could go on for at least another 10 pages! :P



#400
Silcron

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I think them bringing their own destruction is because they have a sort of superiority complex. While not all elves, but many, specially among the dalish still believe they are better than the other races, that their current position is a terrible injustice and so on.

I think that makes them blind to the fact that it has been centuries since they could pick a fight against any other group and expect to win, be Orlais, humanity, the Chantry... For the most part it seems they focus on lamenting or picking fights against those who, in their minds, should loose because of being evil and having wronged them.

In the end if they want to survive as something more than the city elves are they'll either have to swallow their pride and forget about getting any kind of compensation for the wrongs others have done to them* or just leave Thedas. It's not like there aren't other lands outside what we call Thedas, in some cases they wouldn't even have to sale.

*I know the the elves have done bad things to others, as it cannot be denied other groups have bad things to them. My point is that even if both sides have done bad things to each other the elves are no longer in a position to ask for any kind of compensation, because in the eyes of the human societes they were already compensated, with the Dales.