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The Elves keep bringing about their own destructiion


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#451
EmperorSahlertz

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Even in those cases, being prepared for a fight if it's necessary it not the same things as going somewhere specifically to start a fight.

 

I should also mention that the codex doesn't mention how armored they were. In fact the thing it does mention about that is that they had to be able to move "with haste."

Going in prepared for a fight, yet not wanting to are not mutually exclusive. And no, that codex doesn't, but other sources specify that it was Emerald Knights, which means they must've been equiped to be recognizable. And these particular Elves OBVIOUSLY had no qualms about starting a fight..



#452
MisterJB

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All the author of the pamphlet suggested was that the Empire might havê sacrificed Red Crossing to justify a war.
That could just as easily been accomplished by diminishing the garrison. No need for false flags.

#453
Jedi Master of Orion

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Going in prepared for a fight, yet not wanting to are not mutually exclusive. And no, that codex doesn't, but other sources specify that it was Emerald Knights, which means they must've been equiped to be recognizable. And these particular Elves OBVIOUSLY had no qualms about starting a fight..

 

No, but your assertion was specifically that the reason the elves must have been looking for a fight was because they had prepared for one. That doesn't follow. 

 

That must be why they showed up in full battle regalia..... To NOT fight... Yeah... That makes sense....... If you are an Elf...

 


#454
Dean_the_Young

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Well, the thing is that they didn't live where we live. And, while claims of armed incursion and the rest might be appropriate, you twisted facts a litt... a lot where it comes to what the elves were trying to do. They were not trying to kidnap a random elf emigrant. They tried to capture a deserter in possession of sensitive information.

 

 

Cultural relativism only applies if we care about the standards of the culture being discussed. The Dales elves may not see much wrong with murderous xenophobia, racism, and racial vendettas leading to a massacre- but I am not a Dales elf. I am a Westerner talking with other Westerns talking about if the Dales should or should not be held accountable by a standard of responsibility that is, unsurprisingly, Western in rhetoric and outlook.

 

I see no compelling reason to in the context of our discussion to defer to the murderer's social relativism, any more than I would defer to the Chantry's justifications for cultural erasure or Tevinter's justifications of slavery or the Qunari's hard-on for order.

 

 

 

 

Obviously, any villagers they killed after the girl were also their responsibility. Also obviously, the responsibility would be heavier if these villagers didn't attack them. It's stupid if anyone denies the first part. Equally stupid if anyone denies the second. I mean, you actually claim that a deliberate massacre is equal to killing a mob that tried to lynch you? Sure, if you actually did the thing they were trying to kill you for, you're responsible for the situation as a whole. But that still doesn't erase the distinction. Especially if you try and bring our-world modern standards into this. 

 

 

I don't need the deny to second to deem it irrelevant- the 'mob' in this case is the unjustly attacked party, while the 'lynch' victim is actually the perpetrator.

 

It's a weird world of victim-blaming, in our-world modern standards or not, that places the perpetrators as the aggrieved party and the victims as the more racist party.


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#455
Dean_the_Young

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That particular scholar sounded remarkably like one of the SJWs you can find on tumblr nowadays. He accuses the Chantry account of being biased in favor of the humans; which, naturally, is; but completely fails to acknowledge his own bias when he will even defend the Dales' decision to remain neutral in the face of the Blight. Furthermore, he fails to provide any evidence for his claims, it's only what he believes happened.

 

When I first saw that codex, I remember wondering if it was a subtle jab at a certain poster on these very forums.
 


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#456
Dean_the_Young

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Seriously. The Dalish call themselves Dalish because they are supposed to represent the elves of the Dales. It's also hilariously ironic how Dalish fans now want to separate them from the group they claim to represent. 

 

I'm hardly a fan of the Dales or Dalish, but even I see a need for distinguishing 'racist tribal migratory elves with a hardon for mythical past' with 'racist urban elves with a presumed hardon for marginally less mythical past.'

 

I prefer to distinguish by 'Dales' and 'Dalish' myself.


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#457
EmperorSahlertz

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No, but your assertion was specifically that the reason the elves must have been looking for a fight was because they had prepared for one. That doesn't follow. 

Oh, these Elves DID show up to fight. There is no doubt about that. They even pretty much say that in the codex.



#458
andy6915

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I'm hardly a fan of the Dales or Dalish, but even I see a need for distinguishing 'racist tribal migratory elves with a hardon for mythical past' with 'racist urban elves with a presumed hardon for marginally less mythical past.'

 

I prefer to distinguish by 'Dales' and 'Dalish' myself.

 

See? Dean gets it.



#459
EmperorSahlertz

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See? Dean gets it.

Doesn't make it accurate or correct.



#460
MisterJB

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When I first saw that codex, I remember wondering if it was a subtle jab at a certain poster on these very forums.
 

 

The whole "The Dales stood between Orlais and Ferelden" argument, right?

How often have we read it in these forums?
 



#461
EmperorSahlertz

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The whole "The Dales stood between Orlais and Ferelden" argument, right?

How often have we read it in these forums?
 

It is pretty funny that this codex entry makes mention of Orlesian intention of expanding into Ferelden, even though that nation wouldn't be birhted until several hundred years later.



#462
Jedi Master of Orion

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Oh, these Elves DID show up to fight. There is no doubt about that. They even pretty much say that in the codex.

 

No that is no what it says. The objective was to retrieve Elandrin. There was no part of their goal was specifically about needing to go fight humans. If there plan had worked like they had ideally hoped, they wouldn't have fought anybody. 



#463
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It is pretty funny that this codex entry makes mention of Orlesian intention of expanding into Ferelden, even though that nation wouldn't be birhted until several hundred years later.

 

It was still inhabited by the Ferelden people at the time, they just hadn't united into a single kingdom yet. In fact the first Orlesian invasion into the Ferelden valley was also before the nation had unified.



#464
EmperorSahlertz

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No that is no what it says. The objective was to retrieve Elandrin. There was no part of their goal was specifically about needing to go fight humans. If there plan had worked like they had ideally hoped, they wouldn't have fought anybody. 

"Siona returned. She told us how humans were turning you against us. How their lies must have filled you. As a loyal servant to the Maker's cause, you would betray our secrets. When we went to ask if there was truth in this, you were already gone.

So we sought to stop you. With haste, Siona led her people to the village. There we would challenge you. There we would bring you back to us... or to justice."

 

NOPE, not at ALL gearing up for a fight. Nuh-uh. We are just gonna hug him with weapons...... Please..



#465
EmperorSahlertz

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It was still inhabited by the Ferelden people at the time, they just hadn't united into a single kingdom yet. In fact the first Orlesian invasion into the Ferelden valley was also before the nation had unified.

They were Alamarri then.



#466
Jedi Master of Orion

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"Siona returned. She told us how humans were turning you against us. How their lies must have filled you. As a loyal servant to the Maker's cause, you would betray our secrets. When we went to ask if there was truth in this, you were already gone.

So we sought to stop you. With haste, Siona led her people to the village. There we would challenge you. There we would bring you back to us... or to justice."

 

NOPE, not at ALL gearing up for a fight. Nuh-uh. We are just gonna hug him with weapons...... Please..

 

Ideally they wanted to bring him back to the.



#467
EmperorSahlertz

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Ideally they wanted to bring him back to the.

Given how quick they were to resort to violence, I think you know that ideally, they didn't care. All they cared about was silencing him, one way or another.



#468
Jedi Master of Orion

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They were Alamarri then.

 

The Ferelden Valley and it's people still had the name at the time and the people weren't so different from the Ferelden that they would later become. They still had Arls and Teyrns and Bans. They just weren't unified under a Therin King.

 

The entries on World of Thedas' timeline say in 4:80 Black "The Orlesian Empire takes advantage of Ferelden's fractured state and crosses the Frostback Mountains to invade for the first time."

 

And in 4:83 Black, "The Ferelden Teyrns set aside age old differences and push back the Orlesians in a united Front."



#469
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Given how quick they were to resort to violence, I think you know that ideally, they didn't care. All they cared about was silencing him, one way or another.

 

Obviously they did care, he was family. They wanted him to come back to them. They defeated the humans who attacked them easily. If all they cared about is silencing him them they could have easily done so. 



#470
EmperorSahlertz

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Obviously they did care, he was family. They wanted him to come back to them. They defeated the humans who attacked them easily. If all they cared about is silencing him them they could have easily done so. 

They didn't even get to him, until they realised why he had been seeing that damn sexy human woman. At that point they also realised how big a of collective turdsandwhich they had been, and decided to well enough leave him alone.

 

It is perfectly simple. You do not show up in battlegear, not expecting some sort of violence. You just don't. You can twist and turn all you want, but Siona was looking for a fight, and she made one.



#471
myahele

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its in their nature



#472
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It is perfectly simple. You do not show up in battlegear, not expecting some sort of violence. You just don't. You can twist and turn all you want, but Siona was looking for a fight, and she made one.

 

We're going around in circles here. Preparing for a fight doesn't mean the same thing as you are actively looking for one. It just isn't. 


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#473
EmperorSahlertz

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We're going around in circles here. Preparing for a fight doesn't mean the same thing as you are actively looking for one. It just isn't. 

Usually no. In the case of THIS particular isntance, it is. Siona obviously went there for a fight. It is hinted with the subtlety of a stampede.



#474
andy6915

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It is perfectly simple. You do not show up in battlegear, not expecting some sort of violence.

 

Eh... I don't know about that. Our Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor (most of the time*) all wore armor at all times. Scenario didn't matter, they stayed fully geared up at all times. Or was our Warden and Hawke showing up at a Dalish clan in full armor and fully armed a sign that they were wanting a fight, when it was supposed to be a simple meeting with the Keeper in both cases? Armor doesn't always mean wanting a fight when it comes to Thedas, in Thedas traveling in full battle gear seems to simply be the standard procedure.

 

*Most of the time as in when they're not wearing those awful pajamas.



#475
EmperorSahlertz

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Eh... I don't know about that. Our Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor (most of the time*) all wore armor at all times. Scenario didn't matter, they stayed fully geared up at all times. Or was our Warden and Hawke showing up at a Dalish clan in full armor and fully armed a sign that they were wanting a fight, when it was supposed to be a simple meeting with the Keeper in both cases? Armor doesn't always mean wanting a fight when it comes to Thedas, in Thedas traveling in full battle gear seems to simply be the standard procedure.

 

*Most of the time as in when they're not wearing those awful pajamas.

Gameplay / story segregation. It would make for a boring game, if you had to wait and watch your characters get geared between every potential fight, and out of the gear again after.