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[Kulyok]

I have a sneaky suspicion that Tevinters would've still attacked even if the elves built a huge wall around the entire forest and placed huge metal letters "Stupid humans, keep away!" in perfect Tevene every half a mile.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't know.

I mean it you go by the book, they obviously had no interest in the forest.

[SerendipitousElf]

I don't know.

I mean it you go by the book, they obviously had no interest in the forest.

"several Tevinter settlements in Arlathan vanished into the forest,"

 

If they had no interest in the forest, why did they try to settle in it?

[Eliastion]

Well, there are two topics here. The first one: did the elves bring their own destruction upon themselves? The answer here is: yes, it definitely does seem so.

The second one however - were the elves the first ones to attack Tevinter?

Now this I find much more disputable. What we read here is a one-sided account from Tevinter - a very old account, at that, quite heavily contradicting our previous knowledge of how elven-human relations originally deteriorated. I don't say that previous knowledge is accurate either, but seeing that nobody really questions expansiveness of early (and later) Tevinter, this smells like a very classic case of war propaganda coupled with later rewriting of history to present it as glorious victory over the elves rather than opportunistic attack (bordering on scavanging) on weakened nation.

 

So, does elven isolationist attitude contribute to the way history played out for them? Certainly. Was destruction of Elvhenan at least primarily their doing? I think that's canon. Were they the aggressors against Tevinter? I really don't think so. 

[In Exile]

We always assumed there was a continuity to the Tevinter is an evil empire part of Thedas history, but that might not be true. For all we know, Tevinter went pure darkside after they canibalized the remants of the elves. 

 

His exact words are "The shemlen did not destroy Arlathan." In this version the magisters still sunk it beneath the earth. Why would they need to do that if it was already a ruin?

 

Well, remember, the city in the forest might not be what the elves call Arlathan. My theory is that they build a capital in the Fade - what we now call the black city. The Tevinters broke some backwater city in a forest, called it Arlathan, and claimed their victory. IMO, based on what we see in DA:I, the actual physical parts of the Fade - the broken, floating rocks - were part of those floating crystal spire cities that Solas talked about in his explanation of what the old elves were like in his dialogue tree. 

[Sunnie]

Oh how embarrassing!!  I misspelled destruction in the title.  

 

And I can't figure out how to fix it. 

Edit the OP and then select "Full Editor". The title can be edited there.

[TheJediSaint]

Elves have a history of letting pride and arrogance lead them into disaster.

 

But so does just about everyone else in Dragon Age.  It's one of the setting's main themes. 

[SerendipitousElf]

Elves have a history of letting pride and arrogance lead them into disaster.

 

But so does just about everyone else in Dragon Age.  It's one of the setting's main themes. 

Elves are the ones who are singled out and vilified in the franchise for it though. Even Tevinter is looked upon more favorably.

[TheJediSaint]

Elves are the ones who are singled out and vilified in the franchise for it though. Even Tevinter is looked upon more favorably.

I think that's also partly a reaction to some trying to portray elves as somehow more sympathetic than other groups when in fact they're just as much jackasses as everyone else.  Only poorer.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We always assumed there was a continuity to the Tevinter is an evil empire part of Thedas history, but that might not be true. For all we know, Tevinter went pure darkside after they canibalized the remants of the elves. 

 

They started blood magic sacrifice because Thalsian began preaching the Cult of the Old Gods. And he did that before the Imperium was even founded. World of Thedas says that the Neromenians also all but wiped out one of the other humans tribes before the Imperium formed as well.

 

 

 

Well, remember, the city in the forest might not be what the elves call Arlathan. My theory is that they build a capital in the Fade - what we now call the black city. The Tevinters broke some backwater city in a forest, called it Arlathan, and claimed their victory. IMO, based on what we see in DA:I, the actual physical parts of the Fade - the broken, floating rocks - were part of those floating crystal spire cities that Solas talked about in his explanation of what the old elves were like in his dialogue tree. 

 

That's basically unsupported fan speculation. How would the Imperium even know the name of the elven capital if it's another unrelated city they supposedly destroyed then? There's no dialogue from Abelas or Solas or anyone that suggests the Black City was Arlathan. Everyone in the fade other than the Black City are ephemeral structures that are constantly changing based on the emotions of mortals.

 

Anyway, as I read it, I don't see the contradiction. While the popular history narrative in modern day Thedas frames the issue as between Tevinter and Arlathan, Elvhenan apparently had spread across all of Thedas. The contact between the elves and humans may be different between different groups.

 

I might have thought so too once, but TME and DAI both affirm that The Elvhenan was a single Empire.

 

It fits into the theory that elves weakened themselves with a civil war, and tevinter conquered a weakened power.

 

Arlathan is a specific city. He said the humans didn't destroy it. But they did.

[Eliastion]

Arlathan is a specific city. He said the humans didn't destroy it. But they did.

Well, if there is contradiction (I don't completely remember that specific dialogue anymore), I'd err on the side of believing the elf who lived then rather than couple thousand year old Tevinter account of what happened...

I can definitely discuss interpretation ot Abelas's words, but if contradiction is unavoidable - I'll take his account over theirs.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, if there is contradiction (I don't completely remember that specific dialogue anymore), I'd err on the side of believing the elf who lived then rather than couple thousand year old Tevinter account of what happened...

I can definitely discuss interpretation ot Abelas's words, but if contradiction is unavoidable - I'll take his account over theirs.

 

That's kind of my point. This new reveal is apparently a contradiction with what he said.

[Master Warder Z_]

"several Tevinter settlements in Arlathan vanished into the forest,"

If they had no interest in the forest, why did they try to settle in it?

Why wouldn't they settle what's perceive as uninhabited land?

[SerendipitousElf]

Why wouldn't they settle what's perceive as uninhabited land?

Why don't you just read the text in the OP?

"When the Tevinters realized the forest was held by a nonhuman race,

Held by non human race doesn't mean uninhabited. Why then they persisted in settling in?

[thats1evildude]

 
Yes they did. Even the ancient elves didn't last forever, elves eventually permanently die in their "long sleep".
 
http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Uthenera
 
"To the ancient elves who existed during the time of Arlathan, uthenera was an act of reverence. Elves did not age. They were not immortal, but they did not suffer from deterioration of mind or body. They suffered only from a deterioration of the spirit.
 
It did not happen often, but the oldest of the elves were said to reach a point where they became weary of life. Memories became too much to bear, and rather than fade into complacency, they voluntarily stood aside to let newer generations guide their people.
 
Uthenera means "the long sleep," in which the elder would retire to a chamber that was one part bed and one part tomb. To great ceremony from all the extended family, the elder would succumb to a slumber from which they would not wake for centuries, and often never. In time, the body would deteriorate and the elder would die in truth. All the while, family would continue to visit the chamber to pay respect to one who made such a great sacrifice.
 
With the arrival of humans and the quickening of elven blood that ensued, the practice of uthenera began to fade. When Arlathan fell, it ceased forever."

 

Keep in mind that codex was written by an elf of the Dales after the fall of Arlathan, when they were in the process of losing their lore.

[Aulis Vaara]

Well, if there is contradiction (I don't completely remember that specific dialogue anymore), I'd err on the side of believing the elf who lived then rather than couple thousand year old Tevinter account of what happened...

I can definitely discuss interpretation ot Abelas's words, but if contradiction is unavoidable - I'll take his account over theirs.

 

And yet, we have living proof that the ancient elves guarded their perceived borders jealously even after their civilization fell. What the ancient Tevinters thought was Arlathan, may have been nothing more than a place such as the temple of Mythal, with its own sentinels. Heck, it even may have been Arlathan itself. Post fall.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why don't you just read the text in the OP?
"When the Tevinters realized the forest was held by a nonhuman race,
Held by non human race doesn't mean uninhabited. Why then they persisted in settling in?

Why don't you understand the order of events?

It was settled before they were aware of this.

Plus it's the elves decided to be dick neighbors...a mistake they repeat a few times in history.

[SerendipitousElf]

Why don't you understand the order of events?

It was settled before they were aware of this.

Plus it's the elves decided to be dick neighbors...a mistake they repeat a few times in history.

Lets see in chronological order:

1. "Elven scouts were sometimes spotted at the edge of the forest of Arlathan by the settlers" -> settlers are at the edge, not in the forest.

2. "The Imperium built a fortress near the border (of the forest?) and stationed soldiers on permanent watch over the forest" -> so they know the forest is not uninhabited.

3. "Several Tevinter settlements in Arlathan vanished into the forest, never to be seen again"  -> tevinters continue to settle in anyway and settlements  get eradicated, because that is what is done to invaders.

4. "The magisters and Thalasian combined their efforts to work a blood-magic spell against the city of Arlathan. The spell sank the elven capital into the ground, destroying it utterly" ->and Tevinter empire expanded, because that is what it did best.

[Char]

Hmmmm I'm not sure hown much of any of this is actually going to be what actually happened. It had to be one seriously weird forest for a floating crystal city not to be visible anywhere, for starters. I'm just going to assume that the conflicting accounts mean it's something they'll be addressing directly at some point.

[Fredward]

Yeah well humans keep bringing about everyone's destruction.

 

So.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lets see in chronological order:
1. "Elven scouts were sometimes spotted at the edge of the forest of Arlathan by the settlers"

Yup and it was initially dismissed.

That was later overturned, and diplomatic efforts were turned to, those failed, a fortress was built.

The elves kept killing people and there you have it.

Their sucky neighbors.

[Master Warder Z_]

So I'll say it again.

The elves earned their place under humanities boot.

[General TSAR]

Elves have a history of letting pride and arrogance lead them into disaster.

 

But so does just about everyone else in Dragon Age.  It's one of the setting's main themes. 

Pretty much, though the Elves are not learning from their mistakes. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Pretty much, though the Elves are not learning from their mistakes.

It's really for their own good.

They can't be trusted with power.

[myahele]

It's really for their own good.

They can't be trusted with power.

True

1. Their constant in-fighting weakened them for invasion and never fully recovered. Isolationism didn't help

2. They were isolationist during the time of the Dales, so that didn't win them fans after the blight ended

3. Zathrian was willing to have the rest of his clan get the werewolf curse due to a grudge 

4. Marethari and Merrill brought about the massacre of their clan due to Pride

5. The events in the masked empire

6. The elf inquisitor's clan ended up getting massacred since they didn't mind their own business

7. Orsino helping a blood mage conduct experiments and also being a bloodmage himself

8. Fiona