807 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Doesn't make it accurate or correct.

 

Totally does. If I say it, it must be true, or else I wouldn't say it.

 

[/circularlogicofarrogance]

[Dean_the_Young]

The whole "The Dales stood between Orlais and Ferelden" argument, right?

How often have we read it in these forums?
 

 

I dunno, but I'll 'like' your next post if you can guess the person I thought of.

[andy6915]

Gameplay / story segregation. It would make for a boring game, if you had to wait and watch your characters get geared between every potential fight, and out of the gear again after.

 

Not really. Thedas is a world of well equipped bandits, darkspawn, giant spiders, bears and wolves that seem to have no survival instinct and attack in entire packs, rogue maleficar apostates, abominations and demons where the veil is thinned, possessed trees, dragons, wyverns, deepstalkers, Ghasts... Thedas is an extremely dangerous place. Not traveling in full gear is arguably suicidal in such a world.

[Boost32]

I dunno, but I'll 'like' your next post if you can guess the person I thought of.

Xilzhira?

[MisterJB]

I dunno, but I'll 'like' your next post if you can guess the person I thought of.

 

Lob?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not really. Thedas is a world of well equipped bandits, darkspawn, giant spiders, bears and wolves that seem to have no survival instinct and attack in entire packs, rogue maleficar apostates, abominations and demons where the veil is thinned, possessed trees, dragons, wyverns, deepstalkers, Ghasts... Thedas is an extremely dangerous place. Not traveling in full gear is arguably suicidal in such a world.

Again, gameplay / story segregation..

 

Besides, you STILL wouldn't travel in full combat gear, even if the road was dangerous. That would just mean you would travel with a weapon by your side. You DO NOT travel around in full armor. It would siply be too heavy, too unwieldy, and eroding for your equipment. In short, it would be stupid.

[andy6915]

Lob?

 

You?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I dunno, but I'll 'like' your next post if you can guess the person I thought of.

It could be any of our garden variety of Dalish apologists...

[Boost32]

Lob?

Dammit, I forgot him

[MisterJB]

You?

Donkey!

 

[andy6915]

Again, gameplay / story segregation..

 

Besides, you STILL wouldn't travel in full combat gear, even if the road was dangerous. That would just mean you would travel with a weapon by your side. You DO NOT travel around in full armor. It would siply be too heavy, too unwieldy, and eroding for your equipment. In short, it would be stupid.

 

And the elves didn't back then, they needed to move with haste... Remember? That sounds like light leather armor to me.

 

And how is is gameplay/story segregation? So dragons and other such creatures only exist in gameplay? Yeah, okay.

[andy6915]

It could be any of our garden variety of Dalish apologists...

 

I thought he meant an anti-elf, so I thought of MisterJB. Which I still don't what the JB means. Jailbait? That would be weird .

[MisterJB]

I thought he meant an anti-elf, so I thought of MisterJB. Which I still don't what the JB means. Jailbait? That would be weird .

 

Bond. James Bond.

[andy6915]

Bond. James Bond.

 

Never would have figured that out. Much better than thinking it meant jailbait.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And the elves didn't back then, they needed to move with haste... Remember? That sounds like light leather armor to me.

 

And how is is gameplay/story segregation? So dragons and other such creatures only exist in gameplay? Yeah, okay.

Uhm.. No? Dragons in the fluff are however... You know... 300 tons heavy flying lizards, so you can be wearing ALL the armor you want, but it isn't gonna help you. In fact, wearing armor in that case would probably get you killed.

 

And I would also argue that the Elves weren't armored, if the codex is to be taken literally. However, they were identified as Emerald Knights, which would require them to wear their iconic armor.

[Master Warder Z_]

Bond. James Bond.

No mister Bond I expect you to die.

[andy6915]

Uhm.. No? Dragons in the fluff are however... You know... 300 tons heavy flying lizards, so you can be wearing ALL the armor you want, but it isn't gonna help you. In fact, wearing armor in that case would probably get you killed.

 

And I would also argue that the Elves weren't armored, if the codex is to be taken literally. However, they were identified as Emerald Knights, which would require them to wear their iconic armor.

 

No, but extra armor might give you a better chance at hauling ass without getting killed mid-run. And dragons aren't the only danger.

 

And what was their iconic armor? We have no idea what it looked like besides it being green-emerald colored.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, but extra armor might give you a better chance at hauling ass without getting killed mid-run. And dragons aren't the only danger.

 

And what was their iconic armor? We have no idea what it looked like besides it being green-emerald colored.

Extra armor would just slow you down, meaning you are that much easier to catch. I'm sorry, but you just don't travel around in armor. For obvious reasons, so I am amazed I have to explain this...

 

No matter what their iconic armor was, it was still armor. So, they would still have shown up in their battle armor, even if it were light armor.

[andy6915]

Extra armor would just slow you down, meaning you are that much easier to catch. I'm sorry, but you just don't travel around in armor. For obvious reasons, so I am amazed I have to explain this...

No matter what their iconic armor was, it was still armor. So, they would still have shown up in their battle armor, even if it were light armor.

Light armor is specifically designed to NOT slow you down while still protecting you. It's so obvious that I am amazed I have to explain this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Light armor is specifically designed to NOT slow you down while still protecting you. It's so obvious that I am amazed I have to explain this.

Actually no... Light armor is specifically designed to be cheap to manufacture while still offering at least SOME protection. It still weighs in at around 25kg at the least.

[andy6915]

Actually no... Light armor is specifically designed to be cheap to manufacture while still offering at least SOME protection. It still weighs in at around 25kg at the least.

Not in Thedas. Or is light armor made of high dragon hide, "cheap" to make?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not in Thedas. Or is light armor made of high dragon hide, "cheap" to make?

No? But are you claiming most light armor in Thedas are made of dragon hide, because otherwise, you pretty much don't have a point (and if you do, you have even less of one).

[Eliastion]

WHAT?!?!? No I didn't....... I said ORLAIS used Red Crossing as a call to arms for the Orlesians, with the help of the Chantry. But the Chantry didn't call an Exalted march until after Montsimmard had already fallen.
 
Wait a minute, do you think the Orlesian war effort and the Exalted March is the same thing?

Let me split the question so that I may answer with as little ambiguity as possible.
Do I think there was no war before Chantry proclaimed Exalted March? Obviously not.
Do I think Chantry was involved in the war since the beginning? Yes, to an extent.
Do I think Exalted March is a name for the whole conflict even before official declaration? Yes, it appears to be used that way in various sources.
Do I think Exalted March was primarily Orlesian war? Yes, I believe they received substantial help from abroad but they were the only nation that committed its military.

Either way, it's stated in various codex entries that Chantry proclaimed the war holy (and called it an Exalted March - the first ever Chantry EM, second only after original Andraste's) pointing at Red Crossing as the reason. At the time, however, elven army was already making its way to Val Royeaux. My question is: why RC then and not the fact that heathen army has already captured at least one important city and didn't stop at that? Unless the orlesian army invaded first (after Red Crossing incident) there would be no reason to stick to Red Crossing rather than point at the growing scale of elven aggression. If it was not aggression at that point, however, but counteroffensive, then Red Crossing would be the only "safe" topic as place where elves could be unambiguously presented as vile aggressors.
 

Cultural relativism only applies if we care about the standards of the culture being discussed. The Dales elves may not see much wrong with murderous xenophobia, racism, and racial vendettas leading to a massacre- but I am not a Dales elf. I am a Westerner talking with other Westerns talking about if the Dales should or should not be held accountable by a standard of responsibility that is, unsurprisingly, Western in rhetoric and outlook.
 
I see no compelling reason to in the context of our discussion to defer to the murderer's social relativism, any more than I would defer to the Chantry's justifications for cultural erasure or Tevinter's justifications of slavery or the Qunari's hard-on for order.

(...)
I don't need the deny to second to deem it irrelevant- the 'mob' in this case is the unjustly attacked party, while the 'lynch' victim is actually the perpetrator.
 
It's a weird world of victim-blaming, in our-world modern standards or not, that places the perpetrators as the aggrieved party and the victims as the more racist party.

Ok, so you want modern standards?
Then Siona is, of course, a murderer - how severe her crime was should be decided by a court. Elves other than Siona were guilty only of illegal crossing of border - then they defended their lives, depending on how violent and how armed the would-be lynchers were they used excessive force in self defense or not. Oh, and they were chasing what they considered a potential deserter and traitor - with explicit intention of questioning his actions, not of murdering him.
In the whole affair there are three unlawful deaths: Siona's sister (perpetrator likely unknown), the girl (killed, likely murdered, by Siona) and Elandrin (murdered by humans). Are you REALLY sure you want modern standards there?

Especially since, when we take it a step higher, there is not a single country or organization that we shouldn't condemn so hard that the differences between will become blurry. That's why we try and settle for less formalized and more permissive standards that seem to be more or less the norm in Thedas. Only there the mob is in the right while trying to take swift vengeance for the murdered girl, for example - modern western standards just wouldn't allow it, period. What's more - where I come from the very idea of death as punishment is outside of what standards allow - so regardless of evidence the very act of killing anyone not in self-defense but as punishment for the most heinous of crimes isn't acceptable.

Please, please let's not try and universally use modern standards when judging fantasy game worlds. We can't get rid of them completely, they'll always color our judgement a little, but purposefully trying to apply them just won't lead us anywhere more constructive than obvious conclusion "Thedas is a really sh*tty place full of sh*tty people with no rules that would stop them from doing sh*tty things." Yes, that's how it is. Now let's move on and try examining things a little bit closer to in-world perspective to enjoy all the layers of sh*ttyness, from the deep sh*t even people in the world find disgusing to the nice sh*t that even we, spoiled westerners, almost accept. That's what all these discussion threads are all about

[andy6915]

No? But are you claiming most light armor in Thedas are made of dragon hide, because otherwise, you pretty much don't have a point (and if you do, you have even less of one).

My point is that light armor in this series is much more durable in general than the real world version.

[EmperorSahlertz]

My point is that light armor in this series is much more durable in general than the real world version.

And I'd say you would be generally wrong. Except for the rare case of dragon scale armor and the like (which is obviously still inferior and cheaper than dragonbone armor, but I digress).

 

Let me split the question so that I may answer with as little ambiguity as possible.
Do I think there was no war before Chantry proclaimed Exalted March? Obviously not.
Do I think Chantry was involved in the war since the beginning? Yes, to an extent.
Do I think Exalted March is a name for the whole conflict even before official declaration? Yes, it appears to be used that way in various sources.
Do I think Exalted March was primarily Orlesian war? Yes, I believe they received substantial help from abroad but they were the only nation that committed its military.

Either way, it's stated in various codex entries that Chantry proclaimed the war holy (and called it an Exalted March - the first ever Chantry EM, second only after original Andraste's) pointing at Red Crossing as the reason. At the time, however, elven army was already making its way to Val Royeaux. My question is: why RC then and not the fact that heathen army has already captured at least one important city and didn't stop at that? Unless the orlesian army invaded first (after Red Crossing incident) there would be no reason to stick to Red Crossing rather than point at the growing scale of elven aggression. If it was not aggression at that point, however, but counteroffensive, then Red Crossing would be the only "safe" topic as place where elves could be unambiguously presented as vile aggressors.

.... The Chantry did NOT point to Red Crossing when they called the Exalted March, where the hell are you getting that?... The CHantry pointed towards the giant ****** Elven army marching upon the very seat of the Chantry... The ONLY relation between Red Crossing and the Chantry, is that the Chantry spread rumors about dark rituals taking place in Red Crossing, after the Dalish massacered the villagers there. That's it. They didn't call the Exalted March and used Red Crossing as reasoning, and I honestly don't know where the hell you got that from..