807 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliastion]

No? But are you claiming most light armor in Thedas are made of dragon hide, because otherwise, you pretty much don't have a point (and if you do, you have even less of one).

Well, I understand attempts at bringing a bit more realistic armor and weapons up, but when discussing Thedas, we shouldn't completely discard the reality of the game. And reality of the game (depending on the game) is that lighter armors are optimized less for them to be cheap and more to be comfortable and easy to move in. Yeah, I don't know all that much about weaponry but even I cringe a little when I hear this, but frankly - in Thedas there is no reason anyone wouldn't consider light or medium armor (let's spend a moment contemplating easy-to-move-in and light chainmails, btw ) a pretty much standard gear to move about in while frequenting somewhat dangerous places with considerable risk of fight with... anything really.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, I understand attempts at bringing a bit more realistic armor and weapons up, but when discussing Thedas, we shouldn't completely discard the reality of the game. And reality of the game (depending on the game) is that lighter armors are optimized less for them to be cheap and more to be comfortable and easy to move in. Yeah, I don't know all that much about weaponry but even I cringe a little when I hear this, but frankly - in Thedas there is no reason anyone wouldn't consider light or medium armor (let's spend a moment contemplating easy-to-move-in and light chainmails, btw ) a pretty much standard gear to move about in while frequenting somewhat dangerous places with considerable risk of fight with... anything really.

You wouldn't wear armor under ANY other circumstances than if you were straight up expecting a fight. It is simply too heavy, too uncomfortable, and probably even too hot (though probably not a particular problem in southeren Thedas). We have SEVERAL examples of this from our world, where often the road would be dangerous and infested with various bandits and raiders. What did the travelers do? Did they buy armor and wear it on the road? NO! They bought a weapon, or better yet a guard with a weapon, so that they could defend themselves that way. You simply wouldn't wear armor on the road, because it reduced the effective distance you could travel (faster exhaustion, for you or the horse, meant less distance) and it would be uncomfortable. And we aren't even touching upon the price range of armor (actual armor not just padded vests and shirts), which would exclude 90% of all travelers from wearing it anyway.

[Eliastion]

(...)The Chantry did NOT point to Red Crossing when they called the Exalted March, where the hell are you getting that?(...)

Is caps lock reqired? Ok.
FROM PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE CODEX THAT MENTIONS THE CHANTRY DECLARATION OF THE EXALTED MARCH
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
(human version)
And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
(city elf version)
A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is caps lock reqired? Ok.
FROM PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE CODEX THAT MENTIONS THE CHANTRY DECLARATION OF THE EXALTED MARCH
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
(human version)
And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
(city elf version)
A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

... You havn't read WoT, or listened to anything I've said at all, have you?

 

Okay... I'll try to be as perfectly clear, articulate, and direct as I can: The Chantry, did not, nor did they consider, call an Exalted March after Red Crossing. They didn't call the Exalted march when the Dalish were besieging Montsimmard either. After Montsimmard had fallen, and the Dalish had a free march to Val Royaux, THEN did the Chantry call for an Exalted March, but they still didn't point to Red Crossing as the reason. The reason for the call for an Exalted March, was the fact that a large heathen army was cutting a swathe across Orlais, and was advancing upon the very seat of the Chantry in Val Royaux.

 

All of this happened over a timespan of several months, maybe even years. What followed was several more years of warfare. But not once, not even once, did the Chantry point to Red Crossing as the reason for the Exalted March.

 

What you linked, were both abridged and undetailed, and pretty much just there to give you a quick rundown of events. It didn't convey timeframe, motivation, or political landscape.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The fact that the elves were wining at first wasn't actually mentioned within the games themselves until Mother Giselle. It was mentioned in the Prima Guide and later WoT, but all the in game codex entries refer to Red Crossing as the reason.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah the fact that the elves were wining at first wasn't actually mentioned in the games themselves until Mother Giselle. 

It was mentioned that the Elves sacked Montsimmard and besieged Val Royaux SOMEWHERE, though maybe not in the game itself.

[Sunnie]

This thread...

[Eliastion]

You wouldn't wear armor under ANY other circumstances than if you were straight up expecting a fight. It is simply too heavy, too uncomfortable, and probably even too hot (though probably not a particular problem in southeren Thedas).(...)

You're mostly correct when talking about realistic arms and armor. But then we have fantasy. And we know full well how realistic things are there, right? Basing any arguments on assumption that fantasy world, worse: fantasy computer game world has realistic arms and armor is... unwise. Sure, metal armor is heavy, padded armor is not that light AND it's both hot and somewhat restrictive, chainmail doesn't have too good weight distribution, actual leather armor tends to resemble plate armor quite a lot - it's just made from appropriately prepared leather that makes it stiff and durable. But one rarely sees fantasy that works like that. Why would Thedas be any different, really?
Go ahead and agitate for at least a bit more realistic approach to armors - I'm with you. But assuming, without some evidence to support it, that Thedas is realistic in this particular, regularly abused by fantasy aspect? Isn't that... risky, to say the least?

[andy6915]

Well, I understand attempts at bringing a bit more realistic armor and weapons up, but when discussing Thedas, we shouldn't completely discard the reality of the game. And reality of the game (depending on the game) is that lighter armors are optimized less for them to be cheap and more to be comfortable and easy to move in. Yeah, I don't know all that much about weaponry but even I cringe a little when I hear this, but frankly - in Thedas there is no reason anyone wouldn't consider light or medium armor (let's spend a moment contemplating easy-to-move-in and light chainmails, btw ) a pretty much standard gear to move about in while frequenting somewhat dangerous places with considerable risk of fight with... anything really.

 

Exactly. In Thedas, leathers can be made to be far stronger and more expensive than you can find in the real world. At best, our world can only get up to what is only tier 3 in Thedas out of 9 tiers. In Thedas, a master assassin or someone could very well be wearing armor that costs dozens of sovereigns that is far higher quality than anything you can find in the real world. Hell, drakeskin armor is twice as protective as steel plate according to armor ratings. That is light armor stronger than steel, that isn't even possible in our world. Light armor in DA is more of a tactical choice than a financial choice.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You're mostly correct when talking about realistic arms and armor. But then we have fantasy. And we know full well how realistic things are there, right? Basing any arguments on assumption that fantasy world, worse: fantasy computer game world has realistic arms and armor is... unwise. Sure, metal armor is heavy, padded armor is not that light AND it's both hot and somewhat restrictive, chainmail doesn't have too good weight distribution, actual leather armor tends to resemble plate armor quite a lot - it's just made from appropriately prepared leather that makes it stiff and durable. But one rarely sees fantasy that works like that. Why would Thedas be any different, really?
Go ahead and agitate for at least a bit more realistic approach to armors - I'm with you. But assuming, without some evidence to support it, that Thedas is realistic in this particular, regularly abused by fantasy aspect? Isn't that... risky, to say the least?

Not really. Because most of us here on the forum got a firm grasp of the concept of story / gameplay segregation, and are willing to accept that some things are just the way they are in the game, to make a fun game. But when it comes to story, these things should be disregarded, since they were never meant as representation of the story's reality.

[leaguer of one]

Is caps lock reqired? Ok.
FROM PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE CODEX THAT MENTIONS THE CHANTRY DECLARATION OF THE EXALTED MARCH
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
(human version)
And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
(city elf version)
A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

The march happened after the dales invaded Val Royeaux.

[andy6915]

Not really. Because most of us here on the forum got a firm grasp of the concept of story / gameplay segregation, and are willing to accept that some things are just the way they are in the game, to make a fun game. But when it comes to story, these things should be disregarded, since they were never meant as representation of the story's reality.

 

Except no, you're applying real world facts onto a fictional one. A drake's skin is more durable than steel, they have skin thick enough to have people breaking their weapons on them if the weapon is too low quality. It's more than light armor too, Thedas also has stuff like silverite which is at least a couple times stronger than steel and drakeskin both. It's a world of fictional materials that make real world materials look like crap in comparison, a silverite or dragonbone sword might be capable of piercing a modern day tank for all we know.

 

You only dislike my point here because it destroys your own point that wearing armor when traveling in Thedas is somehow not done and isn't idiotic to do, and that wearing light armor against things is pointless because light armor is supposed to be nearly useless in the real world.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Except no, you're applying real world facts onto a fictional one. A drake's skin is more durable than steel, they have skin thick enough to have people breaking their weapons on them if the weapon is too low quality. It's more than light armor too, Thedas also has stuff like silverite which is at least a couple times stronger than steel and drakeskin both. It's a world of fictional materials that make real world materials look like crap in comparison, a silverite or dragonbone sword might be capable of piercing a modern day tank for all we know.

 

You only dislike my point here because it destroys your own point that wearing armor when traveling in Thedas is somehow not done and isn't idiotic to do, and that wearing light armor against things is pointless because light armor is supposed to be nearly useless in the real world.

And exactly HOW does the density of materials, ruin my point that light armor is NOT made for mobility? You have yet to come up with a single valid reason, for that to be the case. Instead you've gone off the reservation about how drakeskin is more durable than iron, or some such. Which is all fine and dandy, but doesn't really change the point. Light armor is not, nor was it ever, made for flexibility, nor mobility.

 

Yes, dragon scales are more expensive than iron. You are correct, congratulations. But dragon scales are NOT the alternative to iron. They are the alternative to dragonbone, which is significantly more expensive, and makes far superior armor. So my point still stands, rock solid.

 

And light armor was extremely useful in the real world. It meant your peasants didn't all run out and die from the lightest cut.

[Dean_the_Young]

 
Ok, so you want modern standards?
Then Siona is, of course, a murderer - how severe her crime was should be decided by a court. Elves other than Siona were guilty only of illegal crossing of border - then they defended their lives, depending on how violent and how armed the would-be lynchers were they used excessive force in self defense or not.

 

Nyet. The elves with Siona would be accomplices to murder, both for the human girl and the rest of the civilians they killed.
 

Oh, and they were chasing what they considered a potential deserter and traitor - with explicit intention of questioning his actions, not of murdering him.

 

 

Such an intent is irrelevant where they have no jurisdiction, even if we ignore the obvious civil liberty and human rights issues.
 

 

In the whole affair there are three unlawful deaths: Siona's sister (perpetrator likely unknown), the girl (killed, likely murdered, by Siona) and Elandrin (murdered by humans).

 

 

Incorrect. All the Orlesian deaths are unlawful- Dales law has no jurisdiction, and the Dales presence was unsanctioned (in which case Siona's band were rogue actors) or sanctioned but unjustified and amounted to an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation.

 

(No, chasing defectors is not considered grounds for cross-border invasions and civilian massacres.)

 

 

Are you REALLY sure you want modern standards there?

 

 

If you could demonstrate you understood them, sure.

 

Especially since, when we take it a step higher, there is not a single country or organization that we shouldn't condemn so hard that the differences between will become blurry. That's why we try and settle for less formalized and more permissive standards that seem to be more or less the norm in Thedas. Only there the mob is in the right while trying to take swift vengeance for the murdered girl, for example - modern western standards just wouldn't allow it, period. What's more - where I come from the very idea of death as punishment is outside of what standards allow - so regardless of evidence the very act of killing anyone not in self-defense but as punishment for the most heinous of crimes isn't acceptable.

 

 

 

I'm fully comfortable in accepting that no one is above reproach- and that some people deserve more reproach than others. For example, a 'mob' that's defending its home from an unprovoked attack by a foreign military force deserves far less reproach and slandering as racist than the bigoted invaders who instigated it.

 

I'm also fully comfortable talking to you about the death penalty, even if you are in the global minority there.

Please, please let's not try and universally use modern standards when judging fantasy game worlds. We can't get rid of them completely, they'll always color our judgement a little, but purposefully trying to apply them just won't lead us anywhere more constructive than obvious conclusion "Thedas is a really sh*tty place full of sh*tty people with no rules that would stop them from doing sh*tty things." Yes, that's how it is. Now let's move on and try examining things a little bit closer to in-world perspective to enjoy all the layers of sh*ttyness, from the deep sh*t even people in the world find disgusing to the nice sh*t that even we, spoiled westerners, almost accept. That's what all these discussion threads are all about

 

 

The proper in-universe perspective is that the the elves of the Dales are at fault and bear the responsibility for all the deaths at Red Crossing, and the subsequent war that resulted. It is, from an honest in-universe perspective that looks at who started the war, and from an honest meta-universe perspective who considers who is responsible, still the Dales' fault. Even if you subscribe to the belief that the Dales-Orlais were an irreperable tinder box that would have been aflame eventually regardless, the ones who lit the match and then threw the torch into the hayloft were the Dales.

 

Now, the fact that it was the Dales fault doesn't mean that they deserved what happened to them after the war- how the Chantry ended the war is a different question from who is responsible for starting it- but as far as bringing about the nation-ending war there's a clear answer as to who is to blame.

[Master Warder Z_]

Light armor if I recall correctly was used mostly for mounted forces and skirmishers.

It was a cheaper, and easier to train for alternative to heavier calvary.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Light armor if I recall correctly was used mostly for mounted forces and skirmishers.

It was a cheaper, and easier to train for alternative to heavier calvary.

More or less. It was generally used by any person who was not rich enough to buy actual armor.

[Eliastion]

... You havn't read WoT, or listened to anything I've said at all, have you?
 
Okay... I'll try to be as perfectly clear, articulate, and direct as I can: The Chantry, did not, nor did they consider, call an Exalted March after Red Crossing. They didn't call the Exalted march when the Dalish were besieging Montsimmard either. After Montsimmard had fallen, and the Dalish had a free march to Val Royaux, THEN did the Chantry call for an Exalted March, but they still didn't point to Red Crossing as the reason. The reason for the call for an Exalted March, was the fact that a large heathen army was cutting a swathe across Orlais, and was advancing upon the very seat of the Chantry in Val Royaux.
 
All of this happened over a timespan of several months, maybe even years. What followed was several more years of warfare. But not once, not even once, did the Chantry point to Red Crossing as the reason for the Exalted March.
 
What you linked, were both abridged and undetailed, and pretty much just there to give you a quick rundown of events. It didn't convey timeframe, motivation, or political landscape.

Oh, so now I see why we have a problem with communicating. I try to reconcile the lore we have so that it makes sense. You just discard half of it.
Let me reiterate: its stated time and time again that the supposed reason for Chantry declaring Exalted March was Red Crossing. The timeline strongly implies that it's BS, but the codexes - including one from DA:I - say what they say. The most likely conclusion is: Red Crossing is the official reason why Chantry stepped into and called what was at that point a national war between Orlais and the Dales a holy war, an Exalted March.
What I do is trying to find an acceptable explanation why they've chosen this particular event over much more important later elven victories, or just their progress as a whole (likely being the actual reason).

But, obviously, talking to you about "why" is pointless, as you just decide to arbitrarily discard these codex entries as - every single one of them - completely untrustworthy, uninformed, and therefore mentioning as a reason something completely irrelevant to what they explicitly mention: declaration of Exalted March by the Chantry.

Yes, discarding the lore can help with creating a clear picture of what happened, especially since - as I mentioned more than once - I do believe the mess to be two different versions of history clashing with some writers writing according to one and some to the other. Completely ignoring (on metagame level, not just considering someting "Chantry/elven lies") anything that refers to the version you like less definitely helps - but that's just manipulating the canon. As in - you're not really working with canon anymore. I can understand it in some cases, there are even places where it's really necessary (timeline for Alistair and Fiona for example doesn't add up at all), but you can't sincirely expect other people to do the same and discard as if nonexistent the exact same bits of information you yourself chose to ignore.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh, so now I see why we have a problem with communicating. I try to reconcile the lore we have so that it makes sense. You just discard half of it.
Let me reiterate: its stated time and time again that the supposed reason for Chantry declaring Exalted March was Red Crossing. The timeline strongly implies that it's BS, but the codexes - including one from DA:I - say what they say. The most likely conclusion is: Red Crossing is the official reason why Chantry stepped into and called what was at that point a national war between Orlais and the Dales a holy war, an Exalted March.
What I do is trying to find an acceptable explanation why they've chosen this particular event over much more important later elven victories, or just their progress as a whole (likely being the actual reason).

But, obviously, talking to you about "why" is pointless, as you just decide to arbitrarily discard these codex entries as - every single one of them - completely untrustworthy, uninformed, and therefore mentioning as a reason something completely irrelevant to what they explicitly mention: declaration of Exalted March by the Chantry.

Yes, discarding the lore can help with creating a clear picture of what happened, especially since - as I mentioned more than once - I do believe the mess to be two different versions of history clashing with some writers writing according to one and some to the other. Completely ignoring (on metagame level, not just considering someting "Chantry/elven lies") anything that refers to the version you like less definitely helps - but that's just manipulating the canon. As in - you're not really working with canon anymore. I can understand it in some cases, there are even places where it's really necessary (timeline for Alistair and Fiona for example doesn't add up at all), but you can't sincirely expect other people to do the same and discard as if nonexistent the exact same bits of information you yourself chose to ignore.

... I can't even....

[Eliastion]

(...)

So, according to you, if you're in a group and one of your group has killed someone, you lose right to protect your life if associates of the victim attack you with lethal intent? And trying to kill people who apparently killed one of your own is the way justice works by modern western standards - and any attempt at defending their lives just makes them collectively more guilty?

Man, I don't know where is that west of yours, but I don't think I would want to live there...

[Deztyn]

Couple of different things, directed at a couple of different people. No quotes because I started to write this using my phone while on break and I am not that much of a masochist.

 

Also.

 

Too lazy to go back and read everything again.

 

And Dean already said most of the good stuff anyway. Victim-blaming? Check. Felony murder? Check. Everything is the elves fault? Check.

 

Dean, there aren't enough likes in the world to say how much I love you. Have my babies?

 

 

Eliastion, the first time -- The impression I got from the codex entry was that Elandrin had returned while the elves were still loitering about, and that someone had witnessed his death. I admit it's not clear. But given the state of human-elven relations at the time, it's not a stretch to imagine things escalated to an all-out massacre before the war properly began.

 

Dragonflight -- I don't think anyone has really whitewashed the death of Siona's sister. Humans most likely killed her. No one has really disputed that. They just don't agree that her death is justification for wholesale human slaughter. Especially since the exact circumstances aren't detailed and it's not established that the humans who killed her were even from Red Crossing. Now if Adalene was her sister's murderer, she suspected Elandrin was an accomplice, and she was seeking justice by taking her knights into Red Crossing-- we would probably all be having a different conversation.

 

Elastion, again -- Here's a simple codex compliant explanation: Red Crossing was the start of the Orlesian war that became the Exalted March. So Red Crossing is the thing that is pointed to as a rallying cry. It was a horrific slaughter of defenseless humans by elves for no discernable reason, as opposed to an assault on a legitimate military target. It forced people far from the path of the Elven war effort who might otherwise think, "One ruler is just as good as another as long as my life doesn't change too much" to instead think, "No one is safe from those monstrous barbarians, they'll kill us all in the end if we don't stop them!" 

 

The Second Blight was in the same lifetime for these people. The idea that the elves might want to see humans utterly crushed beneath them wouldn't seem very far-fetched. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if wartime propaganda said that the elves planned to let Orlais become weak, just so they could later conquer it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Dean is female?

[Deztyn]

Dean is female?

 

Does it matter?

 

I want Dean babies.

[Master Warder Z_]

A female is needed for babies

[leaguer of one]

Oh, so now I see why we have a problem with communicating. I try to reconcile the lore we have so that it makes sense. You just discard half of it.
Let me reiterate: its stated time and time again that the supposed reason for Chantry declaring Exalted March was Red Crossing. The timeline strongly implies that it's BS, but the codexes - including one from DA:I - say what they say. The most likely conclusion is: Red Crossing is the official reason why Chantry stepped into and called what was at that point a national war between Orlais and the Dales a holy war, an Exalted March.
What I do is trying to find an acceptable explanation why they've chosen this particular event over much more important later elven victories, or just their progress as a whole (likely being the actual reason).

But, obviously, talking to you about "why" is pointless, as you just decide to arbitrarily discard these codex entries as - every single one of them - completely untrustworthy, uninformed, and therefore mentioning as a reason something completely irrelevant to what they explicitly mention: declaration of Exalted March by the Chantry.

Yes, discarding the lore can help with creating a clear picture of what happened, especially since - as I mentioned more than once - I do believe the mess to be two different versions of history clashing with some writers writing according to one and some to the other. Completely ignoring (on metagame level, not just considering someting "Chantry/elven lies") anything that refers to the version you like less definitely helps - but that's just manipulating the canon. As in - you're not really working with canon anymore. I can understand it in some cases, there are even places where it's really necessary (timeline for Alistair and Fiona for example doesn't add up at all), but you can't sincirely expect other people to do the same and discard as if nonexistent the exact same bits of information you yourself chose to ignore.

http://dragonage.wik...ainst_the_Dales

 

The cause of the conflict that resulting in the destruction of the Dales is disputed. The Dalish claim it was simple racial and religious persecution, saying templars invaded their kingdom when they kicked out Chantry missionaries. Chantry sources describe tensions building over the years as the elves became increasingly isolationist: The Dales barred all trade or discourse beyond their borders and only attracted greater ire when they refused to aid the human kingdoms during the Second Blight. There were rumors in the bordering Orlesian lands of the elves kidnapping humans to sacrifice to their gods and tensions reached a head with an elven attack on the village of Red Crossing

 

The Exalted March was called only after the elves made serious gains and sacked the Orlesian capital of Val Royeaux. Uniquely amongst the Exalted Marches, only the Orlesian Empire fielded troops against the Dales. The elves were pushed back and eventually defeated, their capital of Halamshiral destroyed. A group the refused to admit defeat made their final stand on the Exalted Plains, where the great warrior Lindiranae challenged the Orlesian general to single combat. Even though she wielded the magical sword known as Evanura, she was defeated, marking the end of their resistance. An elven general named Rajmael is known to have thrown himself from Forlorn Falls rather than face defeat.^[4] The elves were then forced to either assimilate into Orlesian cities or adopt a nomadic lifestyle separated from humanity.

[Deztyn]

In the interest of pretending to be unbiased, I feel obligated to point out there are at least two codex entries that say that the Exalted March was the Chantry's answer to Red Crossing. The original codex entry on the Dales and the nutjob conspiracy theorist one. So accepting all sources as equally valid you have the Exalted March called after Montsimmard was sacked, but also as a response to Red Crossing.

 

A female is needed for babies

 

If Dean has my babies. Dean is female. /Qunari