807 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Given the situation with Ameridan, there's already more evidence present to suggest the opposite.

That was before the fall of the Dales

[Master Warder Z_]

Orlais ground the elves into ash and cast the dust upon the wind

[The Baconer]

That was before the fall of the Dales

 

And?

[Steelcan]

And?

....things change?

 

After Ameridan disappeared its clear that the Dales and Orlais very quickly had a falling out.  Likely because the Dalish were sitting out the Blight.  Wouldn't be surprising if Andrastianism was banned during that falling out

[The Baconer]

....things change?

 

After Ameridan disappeared its clear that the Dales and Orlais very quickly had a falling out.  Likely because the Dalish were sitting out the Blight.  Wouldn't be surprising if Andrastianism was banned during that falling out

 

And, what, that worshiping the Elven pantheon would have been a-okay outside of the Dales, if that were indeed the case?

[Steelcan]

And, what, that worshiping the Elven pantheon would have been a-okay outside of the Dales, if that were indeed the case?

I doubt it was either, though "pagan" religions usually have very limited appeal and aren't great at converting people

[The Baconer]

I doubt it was either,

 

That was the point of the comment you initially responded to.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think the main issue would have to be the Templars being sent with the missionaries.

 

That's not really any more suspect than anyone else traveling with bodyguards, unless the Templars as an institution were actually doing something untoward (like threatening people to convert). So far, to my knowledge, there's been no evidence, credible or otherwise, to suggest that. The presence of Templars is treated as the crime and offense in and of itself.

 

Mind you, the initial 'missionaries and Templars' source that people like to bring is the Dales codex from the Dalish, which is so brief on the topic of the war and causes for it that it doesn't even mention Red Crossing, the Dalish invasion of Orlais, or even the Exalted March. In thata context, 'Templars' may have been referring to the Exalted Marches themselves, not the leadup to the war.

 

I do beleive there was some other source in DAI that mentioned that Templars did, in fact, accompany missionaries at some point- but I can't remember where exactly it was.

[In Exile]

More to the point if the Dalish had functional diplomatic channels they could have resolved the templar issue peacefully with the Chantry directly e.g. your missionaries are free to stay but they cannot have templar guards. Security is an internal Dalish matter.

[dragonflight288]

One thing I would like to know, and there are no sources whatsoever about this, is the attitude the missionaries had towards the elves as they went to the Dales.

Think about it, if the missionaries showed up with an attitude that the elves were less than human, an attitude shared by a majority of humans in modern Thedas, and treated the elves as heathens who had no idea what they were doing, then the elves would have a good reason to throw them out.

But if the missionaries respected eleven tradition and tried to convert them honestly, and were being successful, I can see the elves being a lot like the dwarves with Brother Burkel, instead the dwarves killed the converts rather than cast them out.

That is something I think has not been taken into account. The racism, or lack thereof of either side.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's irrelevant in a historical context.

[dragonflight288]

It's irrelevant in a historical context.

But absolutely relevant if you want to discuss culture, motivations, and societal attitudes leading to conflicts.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no reason to believe that human attitude towards Elves, BEFORE the Second Blight, were anything else than amicable.

[dragonflight288]

There is no reason to believe that human attitude towards Elves, BEFORE the Second Blight, were anything else than amicable.

Aside from 1000 years of elves being slaves, chantry teachings, and an attitude towards magic that runs contrary go every source on the eleven attitude towards such things.

There has to be a reason the elves saw Orlais as no better than Tevinter, and aside Fromm views on slavery and magic...not much differentiates the two nations.

And the Stolen Throne shows that Orlais took elves and treated them as property to be bought and sold, only they don't call it slavery.

There are no sources that I know of that suggests Orlais' attitude to elves was any better in the past than it is today in-game.

The elves certainly alienated Orlais, but I doubt it was a one-way street in that regard.

[Master Warder Z_]

Heh

[EmperorSahlertz]

Aside from 1000 years of elves being slaves, chantry teachings, and an attitude towards magic that runs contrary go every source on the eleven attitude towards such things.

Tevinter also had human slaves. Both formed the southeren nations eventually. The Chantry wasn't even formed until after Orlais established itself, before that magic was running rampant all over the world. Nothing indicates bad relations between humans and Elves at this time. Quite the contrary even.

 

There has to be a reason the elves saw Orlais as no better than Tevinter, and aside Fromm views on slavery and magic...not much differentiates the two nations.

The Elves wanted their vaunted immortality and thought that isolation would bring it back. It evidently took a few decades before that policy took root though.
 

And the Stolen Throne shows that Orlais took elves and treated them as property to be bought and sold, only they don't call it slavery.

Which happened decidedly after the Second Blight, so obviously irrelevant here.
 

There are no sources that I know of that suggests Orlais' attitude to elves was any better in the past than it is today in-game.

Other than the fact that the founder of the Empire's best friend and by all accounts second in command was an Elf? And the fact that it is specifically stated that hostilities started as a result of the Elves abandoning Montsimmard.

 

The elves certainly alienated Orlais, but I doubt it was a one-way street in that regard.

The Dalish didn't care much for the Chantry's missionairies, which would obviously lead to some strained relations. But this obviously didn't happen until the later years either, since the Chatnry would've been busy consolidating itself in Orlais first.

 

In short, there is nothing to suggest that humans and Elves enjoyed anything else than diplomatic relations in the time immediately before the Second Blight.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ameridan also specifically indicates that his compatriots antipathy towards Orlais is based on Drakon's policies. He doesn't mention elven immortality. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I thought the elves modern treatment outside the Imperium was mostly down to their actions during the 2nd blight & their following attempt at conquering Orlais?

Is disappointing how close they could have come to being good human allies in the south but chose isolation & later hostility which destroyed their new state in the end

[raging_monkey]

People do silly things when they lack memory of past actions but Hey 3rd time is the charm

[myahele]

Elves didn't bother with diplomacy and trading in the few hundred years of the Dales existence.

 

Ultimately, Orlais being what it is war would've been inevitable.

[In Exile]

One thing I would like to know, and there are no sources whatsoever about this, is the attitude the missionaries had towards the elves as they went to the Dales.

Think about it, if the missionaries showed up with an attitude that the elves were less than human, an attitude shared by a majority of humans in modern Thedas, and treated the elves as heathens who had no idea what they were doing, then the elves would have a good reason to throw them out.

But if the missionaries respected eleven tradition and tried to convert them honestly, and were being successful, I can see the elves being a lot like the dwarves with Brother Burkel, instead the dwarves killed the converts rather than cast them out.

That is something I think has not been taken into account. The racism, or lack thereof of either side.

Why would you want to evict racist missionaries who spend all their time hurling racial slurs at your population? That seems shortsighted to me. The racist missionaries tripping over themselves to slur the Dalish would be a great lightning rod and rallying point. The KKK isn't exactly big in non-white non-American markets.

It seems to me like there would be a lot more motivation to kick out respectful, persuasive and kind missionaries.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

One recent hint that the Dales had an Andrastian population is according to WoT Volume II, the Canticle of Shartan seems to have first been written in the Dales. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Makes sense.

Shartan was a hero.

He willingly died alongside Andraste.

He was the first notable elf Andrastaian.

[ModernAcademic]

What about the temple in Origins inhabited by both human and elven spirits? It was destroyed by some unknown threat. Maybe a demon or another creature from the Fade, or even dragons.

 

Why are elves always viewed as being in direct opposition to humans? The temple is living proof it was not always so. There's a lot about the past of Thedas that must be unearthed.