807 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

It's possible there were some problem with Dalish mages and the Chantry.

It seems the Chantry grew more and more anti magic as years went by , now I'm not saying the Chantry did attack the elves...but possible the ancient Dalish saw that as a future threat.

 

Anyway even if Red Crossing didn't happen , things would have gone sour at one point anyway.

The humans and the elves got some kind of honeymoon after freeing themselves from the Tevinter Empirium , but then they reacted differently to the whole thing.

There were a backlash against magic and mages in the human lands , meanwhile the elves were busy recreating their magical elven empire...the one who inspired Tevinter.

It seems the Seekers of truth are aware of the elven influence on Tevinter, if they knew back then , they were probably nervous.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Did they? Were are the proof a human killed Siona's sister? Where is the proof they invaded the Dales?
If they did, yes those humans invaded the Dales, still it doesnt have anything to do with Red Cross.

 

You're absolutely wrong when you say that the humans murdering Siona's sister (and it's in the same lore than people like you have been trying to use as "proof" that the elves were the only aggressors, and that they totally destroyed Red Crossing, neither of which is actually stated in the lore you keep trying to spin) had nothing to do with Red Crossing, because the murder of Siona's sister was the flashpoint for the escalation of distrust between humans and elves to violence that led to Red Crossing.

[Br3admax]

You didn't address their point at all, and the elves didn't attack Red Crossing for revenge, it was to cover up the mistake of one of their own who was angry for what she at least thought was human aggression. If that one lone elf never thought to make a spectacle, none of that would have happened, regardless of the death of her sister, 

[Boost32]

You're absolutely wrong when you say that the humans murdering Siona's sister (and it's in the same lore than people like you have been trying to use as "proof" that the elves were the only aggressors, and that they totally destroyed Red Crossing, neither of which is actually stated in the lore you keep trying to spin) had nothing to do with Red Crossing, because the murder of Siona's sister was the flashpoint for the escalation of distrust between humans and elves to violence that led to Red Crossing.

I'm absolutely right when I say the murder of Siona's sister had nothing to do with Red Crossing, the elves didn't go there to search her murderer, they went there to kidnapp a elf who left the Emerald Knights.
And yes, the elves were the only agressors at Red Crossing and there are other codex that says Red Crossing was destroyed.

[TheJediSaint]

I'm absolutely right when I say the murder of Siona's sister had nothing to do with Red Crossing, the elves didn't go there to search her murderer, they went there to kidnapp a elf who left the Emerald Knights.
And yes, the elves were the only agressors at Red Crossing and there are other codex that says Red Crossing was destroyed.

Red Cross was basically the most disastrous ****-block in the history of Thedas.

[Bowie Hawkins]

I'm absolutely right when I say the murder of Siona's sister had nothing to do with Red Crossing, the elves didn't go there to search her murderer, they went there to kidnapp a elf who left the Emerald Knights.
And yes, the elves were the only agressors at Red Crossing and there are other codex that says Red Crossing was destroyed.

 

The elves were going after Elandrin because Siona was afraid that the humans were trying to get Elandrin to betray the Dalish:

 

 

 

http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin

She told us how humans were turning you against us. How their lies must have filled you. As a loyal servant to the Maker's cause, you would betray our secrets. When we went to ask if there was truth in this, you were already gone.

 

The person I was originally replying to said that the death of the human woman Elandrin loved counted as an invasion. By that "logic", the death of Siona and Elandrin's sister was also an anvasion (and one that took place before the one they tried to use as their excuse for blaming everything on the elves):

 

 

 

(Same source)

Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory. Rumors of an abduction stirred. As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In haste and anger, they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunters' path.

 

The death of Siona and Elandrin's sister had everything to do with Red Crossing. You can deny that all you want, but if you do you're in error.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The person I was originally replying to said that the death of the human woman Elandrin loved counted as an invasion. By that "logic", the death of Siona and Elandrin's sister was also an anvasion (and one that took place before the one they tried to use as their excuse for blaming everything on the elves):

Except... You know... It happened in Orlesian lands... So..... Yeah....

 

WIth that being said, Red Crossing was not an invasion. An invasion would imply an organized effort from the government of the dales to conquer Red Crossing, that is not the case.

[In Exile]

Except... You know... It happened in Orlesian lands... So..... Yeah....

WIth that being said, Red Crossing was not an invasion. An invasion would imply an organized effort from the government of the dales to conquer Red Crossing, that is not the case.

It's a violation of Orlesian sovereignty which isn't the same thing. And more importantly it's the Emerald Knights flying off the handle. This is a Court Martial IRL. If the Dales and Orlais had any kind of functional diplomacy they might still have evaded war.

[Br3admax]

The problem isn't that the elves crossed into Orlais and Red Crossing to get one of their own out before he "switched sides." The problem is the Emerald Knights act like they have no idea what subtlety is failed in the most basic form of subterfuge and then though massacring a town was the way to fix it. The Dalish government just turning a blind eye and doing absolutely nothing to reprimand them doesn't help. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

It's a violation of Orlesian sovereignty which isn't the same thing. And more importantly it's the Emerald Knights flying off the handle. This is a Court Martial IRL. If the Dales and Orlais had any kind of functional diplomacy they might still have evaded war.

I'm not refuting that. Calling it an invasion is however, a fallacy.

 

The problem isn't that the elves crossed into Orlais and Red Crossing to get one of their own out before he "switched sides." The problem is the Emerald Knights act like they have no idea what subtlety is failed in the most basic form of subterfuge and then though massacring a town was the way to fix it. The Dalish government just turning a blind eye and doing absolutely nothing to reprimand them doesn't help. 

To be entirely fair, we don't really know what happened after Red Crossing. But I wouldn't put it past the Dalish, that they saw the death of Elandrin (despite the circumstances) as a clear violation of their sovereignty and tantamount to a declaration of war from Orlais, and then decided to invade Orlais for real.

[Br3admax]

No government in their right mind would start a war over one person. Not this one person anyway. He was a random that already left the fold, and had no intention of coming back. The best decision would be to silence the town, which happened, and then reprimand the Emerald Knights in an effort to appease the giant that shared borders with them. Of course the real solution would be to just kill Elandrin and move on. Leave the town alone and pretend none of this ever happened. 

[Bowie Hawkins]

The problem isn't that the elves crossed into Orlais and Red Crossing to get one of their own out before he "switched sides." 

 

It's almost like the humans had been killing elves for a long time prior to this...

[Steelcan]

It's almost like the humans had been killing elves for a long time prior to this...

. It was the elves who left civilians to the "mercy" of darkspawn, not Orlesians

[Bowie Hawkins]

. It was the elves who left civilians to the "mercy" of darkspawn, not Orlesians

 

It was the Orlesians who were murdering elves, and who would have left them to the nonexistent mercies of the darkspawn had their positions been reversed.

[Steelcan]

It was the Orlesians who were murdering elves, and who would have left them to the nonexistent mercies of the darkspawn had their positions been reversed.

got a source for that

[AresKeith]

It was the Orlesians who were murdering elves, and who would have left them to the nonexistent mercies of the darkspawn had their positions been reversed.

 

Seeing as Emperor Drakon was friends with a Dalish Elf, he most likely would have helped the elves if the roles were reversed 

[EmperorSahlertz]

No government in their right mind would start a war over one person. Not this one person anyway. He was a random that already left the fold, and had no intention of coming back. The best decision would be to silence the town, which happened, and then reprimand the Emerald Knights in an effort to appease the giant that shared borders with them. Of course the real solution would be to just kill Elandrin and move on. Leave the town alone and pretend none of this ever happened. 

Wars have started for much less than the life of a single person. And this person weren't just some "random" Elf. He was clearly in a position of leadership and importance, since there was a risk for him to reveal sensitive information. You don't give that kind of information to "randoms".

[EmperorSahlertz]

It was the Orlesians who were murdering elves, and who would have left them to the nonexistent mercies of the darkspawn had their positions been reversed.

.... What?... The Dalish/Orlesian relationship PRIOR to the Second Blight was nothing but respectful, if not amicable. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

[LOLandStuff]

got a source for that

 

They're humans, duh.

[myahele]

This seems more like a Dalish vs Orlais affair than anything else and we know how Orlaisians are.

 

Where are the mentions of Avvars or Fereldens in regards to their relationship with the Dales?

[Br3admax]

Wars have started for much less than the life of a single person. 

 

Not really, no. It's never over so small a singular cause. Is anything, the Dales didn't reprimand them because they approved of the Emerald Knights cleaning house. Or at least they disapprove of punishing them because of an incident involving humans. 

And this person weren't just some "random" Elf. He was clearly in a position of leadership and importance, since there was a risk for him to reveal sensitive information. You don't give that kind of information to "randoms".

He's random in that he was completely replaceable and forgettable. The information he carried, no. Other than that, he had no use and was no cause to start a war the Dales would never win.

 

It's almost like the humans had been killing elves for a long time prior to this...

It's also almost like this had nothing to do with what you quoted. What did humans killing elves, completely ignoring that elves have also killed humans, have to do with the fact that the Emerald Knights are no CIA? 

[Bowie Hawkins]

got a source for that

 

Yes: 

 

http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin

 

"Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory. Rumors of an abduction stirred. As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In haste and anger, they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunters' path."

 

It's also almost like this had nothing to do with what you quoted. What did humans killing elves, completely ignoring that elves have also killed humans, have to do with the fact that the Emerald Knights are no CIA? 

 

I suppose I was responding more to your pattern of trying to place 100% of the blame for Red Crossing on the elves throughout the rest of the discussion we were having than specifically to the "they weren't the CIA" thing. 

 

But as long as people are asking for sources, what is your source for your claims that the Dales turned a blind eye to what the knights did?

 

Seeing as Emperor Drakon was friends with a Dalish Elf, he most likely would have helped the elves if the roles were reversed 

 

Being friends with one elf is not the same thing as having friendly relations with the nation that elf is from, especially given Drakon's aggressive support for the Chantry, and the Chantry's role in spreading anti-Dalish propaganda (not to mention how the Chantry had a habit of editing history to remove records that showed elves in a positive light).

[Steelcan]

TIL broder disputes that are mentioned off hand are undeniable evidence of human aggression towards elves

 

remind me, who got invaded?  Because logic would dictate that the ones who did the invading were likely the ones causing problems in the first place

[Bowie Hawkins]

TIL broder disputes that are mentioned off hand are undeniable evidence of human aggression towards elves

 

remind me, who got invaded?  Because logic would dictate that the ones who did the invading were likely the ones causing problems in the first place

 

There is more proof of human aggression against elves than of them being totally innocent of it, with things like the City elf origin in DAO being just one example. You can try to handwave that away if you feel you absolutely must, but that won't make it any less true.

[LOLandStuff]

I like how the pro-Dlaish are quick to bash the Chantry for being anti-Dalish, but no mention of the Dalish making others convert to be accepted, or how quickly they were to brush under the rug Sharthan, since they never mention it.

At least the Chantry had his canticle, and only got removed because the Dalish invaded and acted all d***ish.

 

Now I wonder what would've happened to the humans had they won the war. They weren't elves, much less elvish enough. And considering they blamed the humans for the loss of their immortality...who knows.