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[KaiserShep]

He got them face tattoos as part of his teenage rebellious phase? 

Don't forget the ears as part of his LARPing addiction.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well they were right about Ameridan being one them and not human Orlesian noble. The clan emblems are supposed to be derived from the old noble family crests. Not to mention it makes sense, I could picture the nobles deciding they'd rather go off and pout in the woods as opposed to living in alienages and becoming a servant class.

If the Dalish are truly decendants of only the nobles of the Dales, then they are even more inbred than otherwise assumed.

 

Has flashbacks of Lob necro-ing one of the elven threads (multiple times!) trying to sneak the last word in.

Aaah yes.. Those were the times.. What happened to the core Elf-brigade anyway?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed, I doubt Red Crossing had much to do with the elven's situation after the war. The fact that they invaded Orlais and nearly reached Val Rouyeaux is more relevant to the outcome.

They did reach Val Royaux. They even sacked it.

[Heimdall]

If the Dalish are truly decendants of only the nobles of the Dales, then they are even more inbred than otherwise assumed.

Well, many of them take in runaway city elves and they do trade clan members sometimes, so there's that. They were originally formed from the nobles, but I imagine the blood has been diluted over the years.

[Heimdall]

They did reach Val Royaux. They even sacked it.

They were close enough to threaten it,mouth I don't think they actually sacked it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They were close enough to threaten it,mouth I don't think they actually sacked it.

Items in DA:I refer specifically to the Dalish sacking Val Royaux.

[The Elder King]

They did reach Val Royaux. They even sacked it.

  

They were close enough to threaten it,mouth I don't think they actually sacked it.

  

Items in DA:I refer specifically to the Dalish sacking Val Royaux.

Fair enough. My point works in both cases.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed. I think Red Crossing is largely irrelevant as anything else than a flashpoint which started the war. It was a powerful symbol to rally the Orlesian to war (though not nearly effective enough, since Orlais was losing badly). But the sacking of Val Royaux was the real call to arms for the Orlesians.

[Steelcan]

Indeed. I think Red Crossing is largely irrelevant as anything else than a flashpoint which started the war. It was a powerful symbol to rally the Orlesian to war (though not nearly effective enough, since Orlais was losing badly). But the sacking of Val Royaux was the real call to arms for the Orlesians.

well its likely that the Orlesians weren't prepared for war immediately

[EmperorSahlertz]

well its likely that the Orlesians weren't prepared for war immediately

True, but the war had lasted for a year already when the Dalish besieged Montsimmard, and five years when they finally sacked Val Royaux, and the call for an Exalted March didn't go out until the siege of Montsimmard started, and it wasn't answered until it had fallen.

 

To me, this paints the picture of the Orlesian people A: not really taking the war seriously at first, perhaps thinking themselves far superior to the Dalish, or B: The Orlesians not really wanting the war to begin with.

[In Exile]

They did reach Val Royaux. They even sacked it.

 

I've read inconsistent sources on that bit. Is the most recent WOG on side of sack, vs. reach? 

[In Exile]

True, but the war had lasted for a year already when the Dalish besieged Montsimmard, and five years when they finally sacked Val Royaux, and the call for an Exalted March didn't go out until the siege of Montsimmard started, and it wasn't answered until it had fallen.

 

To me, this paints the picture of the Orlesian people A: not really taking the war seriously at first, perhaps thinking themselves far superior to the Dalish, or B: The Orlesians not really wanting the war to begin with.

 

The fact that it seems that the first years of the war took place entirely in Orlais, the absence of any mention of battles in the Dales that led to a reversal of fortunes, so to speak, and the invasion of Orlais doesn't paint a charitable picture for the Dalish as the aggrieved party at the start of the war.

 

Though at the same time this plot doesn't really make sense from a logistic POV. If Orlais is fighting a losing war, suffering crushing defeat after crushing defeat... how exactly do they reverse their fortunes? My own theory is the addition of mages and templars - to counter the mages that the Dales must have been using. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

I've read inconsistent sources on that bit. Is the most recent WOG on side of sack, vs. reach? 

DA:I, which I would rank as the most reliable source, has several items which straight up refer to the sacking of Val Royaux, so that is what I am going with.

 

The fact that it seems that the first years of the war took place entirely in Orlais, the absence of any mention of battles in the Dales that led to a reversal of fortunes, so to speak, and the invasion of Orlais doesn't paint a charitable picture for the Dalish as the aggrieved party at the start of the war.

 

Though at the same time this plot doesn't really make sense from a logistic POV. If Orlais is fighting a losing war, suffering crushing defeat after crushing defeat... how exactly do they reverse their fortunes? My own theory is the addition of mages and templars - to counter the mages that the Dales must have been using. 

I'd say that Orlais was a "sleeping giant". It wasn't at full power when Dalish attacked, and only really stirred once Val Royaux was sacked.

[Br3admax]

Orlais already has access to those things even in peace times, so I doubt the Chantry would forbid their use against a non-Andratian nation for five years. Yes, more was obviously sent after it became a great, holy war, but the truth is Orlais was still reeling from the Blight, one the Dales conveniently ignored and sat out on. Orlais was allowed time not only to reorganize its infrastructure, which can happen even during grueling defeats, as well as have a symbol that binds the entire populace together more strongly than even a foreign invasion. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's also not like the war happened immediately after the Second Blight. It had been over for a decade and a half by the time open warfare broke out.

 

The fact that it seems that the first years of the war took place entirely in Orlais, the absence of any mention of battles in the Dales that led to a reversal of fortunes, so to speak, and the invasion of Orlais doesn't paint a charitable picture for the Dalish as the aggrieved party at the start of the war.

 

Though at the same time this plot doesn't really make sense from a logistic POV. If Orlais is fighting a losing war, suffering crushing defeat after crushing defeat... how exactly do they reverse their fortunes? My own theory is the addition of mages and templars - to counter the mages that the Dales must have been using. 

 

Well there was still an Exalted March, even if other nations didn't help. In addition to mages and templars there would have been people who answered the Divine's call to arms. I think attrition would have been the deciding factor.

[The Elder King]

It's also not like the war happened immediately after the Second Blight. It had been over for a decade and a half by the time open warfare broke out.
 

 
Well there was still an Exalted March, even if other nations didn't help. In addition to mages and templars there would have been people who answered the Divine's call to arms. I think attrition would have been the deciding factor.

Considering that Ferelden didn't recover after 10 years from the effect of 1 year of a Blight, I doubt Orlais would recover in 15 years after decades of Blight on its territory.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not saying they were fully recovered. Obviously they weren't. But it's not like there was no time to recover or prepare at all. They did participate in years of border skirmishes as well after all.

[The Elder King]

I'm not saying they were fully recovered. Obviously they weren't. But it's not like there was no time to recover or prepare at all. They did participate in years of border skirmishes as well after all.

They might've Not expected the elves to actually invade them. Or Maybe they understimated them.

[dragonflight288]

Indeed. I think Red Crossing is largely irrelevant as anything else than a flashpoint which started the war. It was a powerful symbol to rally the Orlesian to war (though not nearly effective enough, since Orlais was losing badly). But the sacking of Val Royaux was the real call to arms for the Orlesians.

 

And yet Red Crossing, in all sources, is the thing that the Chantry uses to justify the Exalted March. Not the war, not nearly sacking Val Royeaux, not the capture of Montmissard, but Red Crossing. 

 

A small skirmish outside of a small border town is what the Chantry (not necessarily Orlais, since I'm sure the elves kicking butt in the war was more than enough to get the probable case of Val Royeaux nobles get off of their backsides and stop playing the game long enough to get united to fight the elves,) is what the Chantry chooses to be the symbol to declare an Exalted March. 

 

So that begs the question, why is a rather insignificant border town that has been involved in border skirmishes for probably generations, the rallying call of the Chantry and not Val Royeaux or Montmissard?

[Heimdall]

Its possible the elves simply overextended themselves in their campaign northward and didn't have the means to continue defeating Orlais in its own heartland.

 

Maybe Drakon's son was just terrible at effectively commanding his nobility so it took the authoritative voice of the Divine and the sacking of the capital to get them to pull their act together.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And yet Red Crossing, in all sources, is the thing that the Chantry uses to justify the Exalted March. Not the war, not nearly sacking Val Royeaux, not the capture of Montmissard, but Red Crossing.

 

A small skirmish outside of a small border town is what the Chantry (not necessarily Orlais, since I'm sure the elves kicking butt in the war was more than enough to get the probable case of Val Royeaux nobles get off of their backsides and stop playing the game long enough to get united to fight the elves,) is what the Chantry chooses to be the symbol to declare an Exalted March. 

 

So that begs the question, why is a rather insignificant border town that has been involved in border skirmishes for probably generations, the rallying call of the Chantry and not Val Royeaux or Montmissard?

No it isn't... The sacking of Montsimmard and the march on Val Royaux is what makes the Chantry calls for an Exalted March.. No source says that Red Crossing is what makes the Chantry call an Exalted March..

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As we talked about before (exactly 10 pages ago), nearly every in game source (especially in the earlier games) mentioned Red Crossing as the reason. It's mostly the supplementary materials that mention Montsimmard and so forth.

[Heimdall]

As the reason for the start of the war and proof of elven aggression, not the rallying call of the Exalted March.

[EmperorSahlertz]

As we talked about before (exactly 10 pages ago), nearly every in game source (especially in the earlier games) mentioned Red Crossing as the reason. It's mostly the supplementary materials that mention Montsimmard and so forth.

No... They... Don't...

 

The sources in which you claim that Red Crossing is stated as the reason, no such thing is stated.. All we get is an abridged version of how things went down. There is NOTHING that even remotely suggests that Red Crossing was the reason for the Exalted March.

[dragonflight288]

No it isn't... The sacking of Montsimmard and the march on Val Royaux is what makes the Chantry calls for an Exalted March.. No source says that Red Crossing is what makes the Chantry call an Exalted March..

 

Codex Entry: The Exalted March of the Dales.

 

Location: The Emerald Graves.

 

Underlining the important paragraph in regards to the discussion. 

 

The Chantry's story of the Exalted March of the Dales paints the picture of the righteous faithful arrayed against heathen savages. But I have long studied the Dales, and I find the "acceptable" version of the tale to be a poor one, laden with overt pro-Chantry and pro-human biases. Thus it is my moral imperative to propose an alternative interpretation: that the Exalted March of the Dales was nothing more than an expansionist ploy hiding behind the mask of faith.

It is easy to see on any map how large the Dales are. More importantly, they stand between Orlais and the rest of the south and would likely have represented a significant obstacle to the empire's expansion into Ferelden. Naturally, we stood to benefit from propagating the narrative of a hostile, unreasoning people attacking innocent missionaries and making blood sacrifices of good Andrastian babies. The likely truth is that the elves merely wished to maintain sovereignty over lands promised to them by Blessed Andraste herself, when the humans showed clear intent to undermine their autonomy.

Of course, the elves reacted by becoming increasingly isolationist, which suited the empire perfectly. Here was a kingdom that spurned diplomatic overtures and that refused to lend aid during the Second Blight when the darkspawn attacked Montsimmard. The Dalish kingdom could not be anything but a dormant threat, one that needed to be crushed before it awoke.

Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales. They conveniently ignore the fact that no one alive truly knows what happened at Red Crossing or why the elves attacked. The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable. But in light of my thesis, perhaps we should reexamine the events of Red Crossing and wonder if the attack was truly unprovoked. Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people.

—From A New Perspective on the Exalted March, a pamphlet by an anonymous author, published by the University of Orlais in 9:12 Dragon