807 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Every single codex about the Fall of the Dales in the first game mentions either Red Crossing or Chantry missionaries as the reason. The first time the early elven progress was mentioned at all in the game themselves was in Inquisition. 

 

There were even links posted back then (although one of them was linked wrong) that spell it out in incredibly specific and absolutely unambiguous detail. But to reiterate: 

 

Codex Entry: The Exalted March of the Dales:  "Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom of the Dales."

 

Codex Entry: The Dales: "And then came an attack on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales,"

 

Codex Entry: The City Elves: "A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales."

 

Even the non elf version of that Codex by Sister Petrine, while not stating it outright, implies Red Crossing is the reason when she wrote "Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, it was a great testament to the Chantry's charity" as if that was the only incident that mattered.

 

World of Thedas mentions the elves capturing Montsimmard, but your claim that no source anywhere even remotely suggest Red Crossing was the reason for the Exalted March is about as blatantly false as it gets.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

Codex Entry: The Exalted March of the Dales.

 

Location: The Emerald Graves.

 

Underlining the important paragraph in regards to the discussion. 

 

Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales. They conveniently ignore the fact that no one alive truly knows what happened at Red Crossing or why the elves attacked. The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable. But in light of my thesis, perhaps we should reexamine the events of Red Crossing and wonder if the attack was truly unprovoked. Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people.

—From A New Perspective on the Exalted March, a pamphlet by an anonymous author, published by the University of Orlais in 9:12 Dragon

You realize that this is NOT contemporary, AND that it comes from an extremely Chantry critical source? And this is LITERALLY the only source, that even make such stupid claims.

 

Every single codex about the Fall of the Dales in the first game mentions either Red Crossing or Chantry missionaries as the reason. The first time the early elven progress was mentioned at all in the game themselves was in Inquisition. 

 

There were even links posted back then (although one of them was linked wrong) that spell it out in incredibly specific and absolutely unambiguous detail. But to reiterate: 

 

Codex Entry: The Exalted March of the Dales:  "Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom of the Dales."

 

Codex Entry: The Dales: "And then came an attack on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales,"

 

Codex Entry: The City Elves: "A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales."

 

Even the non elf version of that Codex by Sister Petrine, while not stating it outright, implies Red Crossing is the reason when she wrote "Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, it was a great testament to the Chantry's charity" as if that was the only incident that mattered.

 

World of Thedas mentions the elves capturing Montsimmard, but your claim that no source anywhere even remotely suggest Red Crossing was the reason for the Exalted March is about as blatantly false as it gets.

I adressed the first one before. The second one.... Boy... That I even have to explain that one.... You realize that this one, SKIPS (not even mentions) the entire siege and sacking of BOTH Val Royaux and Montsimmard? It is worthless as anything else than an abridged telling of what happened in those years.

And I could also write out the EXACT same explanation fot your third point... But I am not gonna, since hopefully the point has gotten across.

 

There is one source, and one source only, that claims it, and that source is about as reliable as a virgin ******.

 

On the other hand, WoT spells it out in painfully obvious words, that the Exalted March was not called untill AFTER Montsimmard had fallen, and the Dalish were marching on Val Royaux... But then again, it would be BSN if it didn't disregard WoG....

[Br3admax]

WoT isn't Word of God, it's just like a giant codex. That being said, most codices are historical documents and that one is a piece of propaganda by an other that was too afraid to even leave their name. It even says "a new perspective," and is written Ages after the fact. It's not credible, aye. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

WoT isn't Word of God, it's just like a giant codex. That being said, most codices are historical documents and that one is a piece of propaganda by an other that was too afraid to even leave their name. It even says "a new perspective," and is written Ages after the fact. It's not credible, aye. 

The timeline is.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Do you... not understand the point I was trying to make?

 

The fact that World of Thedas talks about The Fall of Montsimmard is totally irrelevant to what I'm trying to say.

 

The fact that it is a source that doesn't mention Montsimmard is exactly my point. There are also three separate codex entries by three separate authors. And each one says Red Crossing is the reason for for the Exalted March. 

 

You said:

 

No source says that Red Crossing is what makes the Chantry call an Exalted March..

 

 

Yet there are three codex entries that say precisely that. In one post you claim no sources suggest Red Crossing was the reason, and then in another you say those that do don't matter because they mention Red Crossing instead of the other places. 

 

They also don't just skip over the early elven victories, they point to the incident at Red Crossing itself specifically being the motive for the Chantry's actions. And in Origins they were the only source of information we had on the Exalted March of the Dales. Back then there was no information about Montsimmard or Val Royeaux at all.

 

The reason we're talking about this is because of the question of why the Chantry would use a backwater town as a rallying cry instead of two of their biggest cities.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Do you... not understand the point I was trying to make?

 

The fact that World of Thedas talks about The Fall of Montsimmard is totally irrelevant to what I'm trying to say.

 

The fact that it is a source that doesn't mention Montsimmard is exactly my point. There are also three separate codex entries by three separate authors. And each one says Red Crossing is the reason for for the Exalted March. 

 

You said:

 

 

 

Yet there are three codex entries that say precisely that. In one post you claim no sources suggest Red Crossing was the reason, and then in another you say those that do don't matter because they mention Red Crossing was the reason. 

 

They also don't just skip over the early elven victories, they point to the incident at Red Crossing itself specifically being the motive for the Chantry's actions. And in Origins they were the only source of information we had on the Exalted March of the Dales. Back then there was no information about Montsimmard or Val Royeaux at all.

 

The reason we're talking about this is because of the question of why the Chantry would use a backwater town as a rallying cry instead of two of their biggest cities.

There is ONE. ONE codex entry that says that Red Crossing is the reason. The other two doesn't even deign the reader with specifying Red Crossing was a reason. it just briefly mention that it happens, and then an Exalted March happened. Those two other codices does NOT point to Red Crossing as the reason, but rather as an event that started the conflict. None of thsoe two entries are detailed enough to discern ANYTHING from, other than a series of events happened.

[Br3admax]

Yet there are three codex entries that say precisely that. They don't just skip over the early elven victories, they point to the incident at Red Crossing as specifically being the motive for the Chantry's actions. And in Origins they were the only source of information on the Exalted March of the Dales. Back then there was no information about Montsimmard or Val Royeaux at all.

 

The reason we're talking about this is because of the question of why the Chantry would use a backwater town as a rallying cry instead of two of their biggest cities.

Because everyone in those two cities didn't die? Just a guess. The Dalish sacking strategic cities is war. The Dalish massacring towns is a crime. The distinction should be obvious. And while Origins may have said something, as Sahlertz already said, we are talking about the most recent sources, which are really the only ones that matter when concerning the same author, that author being BioWare. The most up-to-date source disagrees. Even if it didn't, notice that only one of your sources is written by an actual scholar, and that source is Ferelden Folklore and History. Not exactly a first hand account of anything. Especially when given from the Ferelden, no offense to them, perspective. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

There is ONE. ONE codex entry that says that Red Crossing is the reason. The other two doesn't even deign the reader with specifying Red Crossing was a reason. it just briefly mention that it happens, and then an Exalted March happened. Those two other codices does NOT point to Red Crossing as the reason, but rather as an event that started the conflict. None of thsoe two entries are detailed enough to discern ANYTHING from, other than a series of events happened.

 

Uh no, the other two also mention it. Explicitly. "The Chantry replied with and Exalted March" and "prompted the Chantry to retaliate" contain very clear language. Both say that the Exalted March was a response to Red Crossing. 

 

It's also worth noting that the first one actually says that "scholars point to the Red Crossing as the impetus." The author was pointing out that it was the historical consensus among most Chantry scholars that he was trying to argue against. And the fact that the author of that Codex must at least knows what history says is exactly the thing you kept appealing to as proof the elves must have wiped out Red Crossing earlier in the thread.

[Heimdall]

Uh no, the other two also mention it. Explicitly. "The Chantry replied with and Exalted March" and "prompted the Chantry to retaliate" contain very clear language. Both say that the Exalted March was a response to Red Crossing.

It's also worth noting that the first one actually says that "scholars point to the Red Crossing as the impetus." The author was pointing out that it was the historical consensus among most Chantry scholars. And the fact that the author of that Codex must at least knows what history says is exactly the thing you kept appealing to as proof the elves must have wiped out Red Crossing earlier in the thread.

How does that make any sense when the Exalted March was only called after the Dalish had reached Val Royeaux, the seat of the Chantry itself?

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

 

 

Uh no, the other two also mention it. Explicitly. "The Chantry replied with and Exalted March" and "prompted the Chantry to retaliate" contain very clear language. Both say that the Exalted March was a response to Red Crossing. 

 

It's also worth noting that the first one actually says that "scholars point to the Red Crossing as the impetus." The author was pointing out that it was the historical consensus among most Chantry scholars that he was trying to argue against. And the fact that the author of that Codex must at least knows what history says is exactly the thing you kept appealing to as proof the elves must have wiped out Red Crossing earlier in the thread.

 

Oh but for fucks sake...........

 

No. They. Don't.

 

They are telling an abriged version of a series of events, that happened in that time period. That's it.

 

Claiming that they are pointing to Red Crossing as the reason for the Exalted March, would be about as stupid as claiming a source saying: "In 1939 Nazigermany invaded poland. In response the allied forces launched a massive land invasion of Normandy" Is pointing towards the German ivnasion of Poland as the reason for D-day......

 

 

How does that make any sense when the Exalted March was only called after the Dalish had reached Val Royeaux, the seat of the Chantry itself?

It doesn't... That is the beauty of it.... Apparently.....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

How does that make any sense when the Exalted March was only called after the Dalish had reached Val Royeaux, the seat of the Chantry itself?

 

That's a good question, but that is what those sources say.

 

Part of me wonders if the fact that the first game had no mention of the elves early successes might be because Bioware was conflicted about deciding exactly what the lore was on the topic. Or possibly the idea is that The Chantry and Orlais find the idea that they were losing the war so badly, at first, to be embarrassing and prefer to imagine their March as avenging one defenseless village rather than a desperate fight for survival.

 

 

Oh but for fucks sake...........

 

No. They. Don't.

 

They are telling an abriged version of a series of events, that happened in that time period. That's it.

 

Claiming that they are pointing to Red Crossing as the reason for the Exalted March, would be about as stupid as claiming a source saying: "In 1939 Nazigermany invaded poland. In response the allied forces launched a massive land invasion of Normandy" Is pointing towards the German ivnasion of Poland as the reason for D-day......

 

Yes. They. Do.

 

"Replied with."

 

"Prompted to retaliate."

 

prompt

präm(p)t/

verb

 

1. 1.

   (of an event or fact) cause or bring about (an action or feeling).

    

    

re·ply

rəˈplī/

verb

 

1. 1.

   say something in response to something someone has said.

    

    

   • respond by a similar action or gesture.

     "they replied to the shelling with a heavy mortar attack on the area"

    

[EmperorSahlertz]

*Snip*

And you promptly ignored my example. Good job.

 

"The willfully blind cannot be lead".

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm directly quoting what the codex entries say. Whether you think it is ridiculous that they say that is irrelevant, because that's not the point.

 

Even if I thought you had an an apt analogy there, my point about what the codex says, not whether it was as absurd as your example or not.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm directly quoting what the codex entries say. Whether you think it is ridiculous that they say that is irrelevant because that's not the point.

What they are saying, and what they mean are two different things. Apparently the whole concept of abridged storytelling is alien to you...

 

Yes, you would have a case if those entries were our ONLY entries on the matter. However, we got far more details, and we KNOW that Red Crossing isn't the reason for the Exalted March, so we KNOW that what these specific codices are doing, is simply rimsing up a series of events for easy consumption and understanding. You don't NEED to know the entire series of events from the border skirmishes to the fall of Halamshiral and the creation of the alienages. All you need is the start, the middle and the end, to get what happened.

 

These codices are NOT trying to tell us the why. But rather the how.

 

It really is a perfectly simple concept.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So it seems your point boils down to: Since it doesn't make sense that those codices say what they do, they must actually be saying something else.

 

That's not really a reasonable way to try to understand the reason for discrepancies between the lore sources. 

 

For a while those were out only entries on the matter. And unlike the Dalish version of the entry on the Dales, there wasn't much to suggest these were abbreviated back then, since they don't leave the question of motive ambiguous despite consistently not mentioning Montsimmard.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So it seems your point boils down to: Since it doesn't make sense that those codices say what they do, they must actually be saying something else.

 

That's not really a reasonable way to try to understand the reason for discrepancies between the lore sources. 

 

For a while those were out only entries on the matter. And unlike the Dalish version of the entry on the Dales, there wasn't much to suggest these were abbreviated back then, since they don't leave the question of motive ambiguous despite consistently not mentioning Montsimmard.

What they are saying makes perfect sense. However, as it just so happens, we got additional info, meaning we KNOW what they are saying isn't the whole truth.

[dragonflight288]

What they are saying makes perfect sense. However, as it just so happens, we got additional info, meaning we KNOW what they are saying isn't the whole truth.

 

 

That's obvious to anyone, but that does not answer the fundamental question that has been brought up, repeatedly, and handwaved away.

 

Yes, the timing of the Chantry calling the Exalted March occurred when Val Royeaux was threatened, and after Montmissard had been taken. And yes, it was after the Exalted March was called that the tide started turning against the elves.

 

But the real question being asked is quite simple. The timing suggests that the Chantry helped declared the Exalted March when Orlais itself was at risk, as well as the heart of the Chantry. But the stated reason for calling the Exalted March was the battle in Red Crossing. 

 

So that begs the question, over the course of three games and several sources, all of them giving the stated reason for declaring the Exalted March on Red Crossing, is why did the Chantry declare the Exalted March as a response to the event at Red Crossing when the timing suggests something entirely different?

 

My thought is that Bioware had a conflict in the written lore and the timeline as the most likely reason. Overall, however, is that over three games, and several sources, including Inquisition's new codex entries, the stated reason for declaring the Exalted March has never been changed. It's always been stated to be the direct response for what happened at Red Crossing. Jedi Master of Orion and I have listed different sources, each with a different source, some even from the Chantry scholars, and they in turn outright state that the Exalted March on the Dales was a response to Red Crossing. 

 

So, whether it's true or not, the stated reason the Chantry gave as the reason for the Exalted March, that still begs an answer to the question: Why did the Chantry say the Exalted March was a response to Red Crossing?

 

That is the reason they gave, whether or not it's the true reason. 

[Steelcan]

Forget the codexes, Mother Giselle, a figure within the chantry itself and privy to the discussions around the issue of war and whether it was justified or not says that the Exalted March was called in response to the elves reaching Val Royeaux.

 

Codex entries that are the work of madmen claiming a false flag operation or wholly exclude the vast majority of the war are not nearly as relevant.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I am running out of different ways to explain it as simply as possible how those codices DO NOT state Red Crossing as the reason for the Exalted March, and frankly I'm surprised that I am still having to find new ways to do just that....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What they are saying makes perfect sense. However, as it just so happens, we got additional info, meaning we KNOW what they are saying isn't the whole truth.

 

Be that as it may that we now have more detailed information from later sources, it doesn't actually change what the old codex entries say.

 

Forget the codexes, Mother Giselle, a figure within the chantry itself and privy to the discussions around the issue of war and whether it was justified or not says that the Exalted March was called in response to the elves reaching Val Royeaux.

 

Codex entries that are the work of madmen claiming a false flag operation or wholly exclude the vast majority of the war are not nearly as relevant.

 

Actually she says they had captured Montsimmard and were threatening Val Royeaux. And she doesn't, strictly speaking, name that as the reason. She said that to illustrate the elves weren't helpless victims.

[In Exile]

That's obvious to anyone, but that does not answer the fundamental question that has been brought up, repeatedly, and handwaved away.

 

Yes, the timing of the Chantry calling the Exalted March occurred when Val Royeaux was threatened, and after Montmissard had been taken. And yes, it was after the Exalted March was called that the tide started turning against the elves.

 

But the real question being asked is quite simple. The timing suggests that the Chantry helped declared the Exalted March when Orlais itself was at risk, as well as the heart of the Chantry. But the stated reason for calling the Exalted March was the battle in Red Crossing. 

 

So that begs the question, over the course of three games and several sources, all of them giving the stated reason for declaring the Exalted March on Red Crossing, is why did the Chantry declare the Exalted March as a response to the event at Red Crossing when the timing suggests something entirely different?

 

My thought is that Bioware had a conflict in the written lore and the timeline as the most likely reason. Overall, however, is that over three games, and several sources, including Inquisition's new codex entries, the stated reason for declaring the Exalted March has never been changed. It's always been stated to be the direct response for what happened at Red Crossing. Jedi Master of Orion and I have listed different sources, each with a different source, some even from the Chantry scholars, and they in turn outright state that the Exalted March on the Dales was a response to Red Crossing. 

 

So, whether it's true or not, the stated reason the Chantry gave as the reason for the Exalted March, that still begs an answer to the question: Why did the Chantry say the Exalted March was a response to Red Crossing?

 

That is the reason they gave, whether or not it's the true reason. 

 

Or it could be that historical records are terrible. Back before DA:O was released, there was a big debate whether or not Bioware should go in this direction. On the one side, there was the argument it would be realistic. On the other side, the argument was that we - the fans - would become confused about the lore. A codex isn't WOG. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That could be the reason. But it is still confusing. Especially since the discrepancy has never been directly addressed by any characters or codices in the games.

[Deztyn]

So that begs the question, over the course of three games and several sources, all of them giving the stated reason for declaring the Exalted March on Red Crossing, is why did the Chantry declare the Exalted March as a response to the event at Red Crossing when the timing suggests something entirely different?

I posted something about this pages and pages ago when another poster was asking the same question. Mostly went ignored. Possibly because I sidetracked everyone by asking Dean to have my babies. It's totally going to happen.

Elastion, again -- Here's a simple codex compliant explanation: Red Crossing was the start of the Orlesian war that became the Exalted March. So Red Crossing is the thing that is pointed to as a rallying cry. It was a horrific slaughter of defenseless humans by elves for no discernable reason, as opposed to an assault on a legitimate military target. It forced people far from the path of the Elven war effort who might otherwise think, "One ruler is just as good as another as long as my life doesn't change too much" to instead think, "No one is safe from those monstrous barbarians, they'll kill us all in the end if we don't stop them!"

The Second Blight was in the same lifetime for these people. The idea that the elves might want to see humans utterly crushed beneath them wouldn't seem very far-fetched. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if wartime propaganda said that the elves planned to let Orlais become weak, just so they could later conquer it.

Going to add that it's also possible that factions within the Chantry were pressing for an Exalted March after Red Crossing but the Divine didn't declare it officially until Val Royeaux was threatened. I don't believe we have any exact dates for these events. The massacre at Red Crossing is in 2:09. The Exalted March is declared in 2:10. That could very well be in the span of just a few months.

Edit: To include the actual question I was responding to. Why do I post from my phone when it's so awkward? I think I must hate myself.

[In Exile]

Codex Entry: The Exalted March of the Dales:  "Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom of the Dales."

 

Codex Entry: The Dales: "And then came an attack on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales,"

 

Codex Entry: The City Elves: "A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales."

 

The text just doesn't support the conclusion you're drawing with regard to the elven entries (Dales or CE) as they compress the entire timeline. The Exalted March Codex is from DA:I, and the full text of your passage says the following: 

 

"Scholars point to the massacre at Red Crossing as the impetus for the Chantry's declaration of an Exalted March on the elven kingdom in the Dales. They conveniently ignore the fact that no one alive truly knows what happened at Red Crossing or why the elves attacked. The Chantry's response to the elven aggression that resulted in the slaughter of hundreds was predictable. But in light of my thesis, perhaps we should reexamine the events of Red Crossing and wonder if the attack was truly unprovoked. Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people."

 

The timeline for that article is also important: "From A New Perspective on the Exalted March, a pamphlet by an anonymous author, published by the University of Orlais in 9:12 Dragon".

 

There's a real question whether this author is as aware of the history as he or she purports to be in the entry. Consider the thesis of the entry as well:

 

"The Chantry's story of the Exalted March of the Dales paints the picture of the righteous faithful arrayed against heathen savages. But I have long studied the Dales, and I find the "acceptable" version of the tale to be a poor one, laden with overt pro-Chantry and pro-human biases. Thus it is my moral imperative to propose an alternative interpretation: that the Exalted March of the Dales was nothing more than an expansionist ploy hiding behind the mask of faith."

 

I would not say that the author is neutral per se (describing the work as a "moral imperative") which is at odds with the (already written) fact that there was an invasion of Orlais. I don't think we're meant to uncritically accept the entry.

 

Moving on to the two elven entries. The Dales entry (from the Dalish POV) says: 

 

"But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin."

This is just misleading. And we know it is false because it doesn't even acknowledge Red Crossing. 

 

Sister Petrine in that entry also has a pretty biased account, but from the opposite direction: 

 

"But the old era wasn't through with them. In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods. And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end. Halamshiral was utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left to survive on goodwill alone."

 

This says that the Chantry was the agent of the Dales conquest, not Orlais. 

 

The City Elf entry is similarly vague: 

 

"There, in the Dales, our people revived the lost lore as best we could. We called the first city Halamshiral, "end of the journey," and founded a new nation, isolated as elves were meant to be, this time patrolled by an order of Emerald Knights charged with watching the borders for trouble from humans. But you already know that something went wrong. A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales."

 

Once again, there is a serious compression of the timeline. This entry doesn't even call it an Exalted March, just a "retaliation". Contrast it with the non-elf entry in the same codex:

 

"When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry."

 

This doesn't say Red Crossing is the impetus for the march - but it is what they classify as the wrong. 

[In Exile]

That could be the reason. But it is still confusing. Especially since the discrepancy has never been directly addressed by any characters or codices in the games.

 

To be fair, the games don't even address the issue of what the Dales were like beyond the few mentions by the Dalish of their basically utopian life.