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[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

If we're going to cite the red-crossing documents, you should at least include the bit where the innocent Orlesian civilians had murdered one of the Emerald Knights' sister just before the incident. Or that those same documents cite constant border skirmishes with humans.
 
Red crossing was a big derp up, but its not like that derp up happened in a vacuum.

Both sides caused tension before things blew up but it was the elves trespassing in Orlais's territory & killing its civilians that made it really ugly

[The Hierophant]

I'll be dead before i see the ring in the hands of an elf! 

 

Never trust an elf.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'll be dead before i see the ring in the hands of an elf!

Never trust an elf.

Gimili o...o

[Drasanil]

Both sides caused tension before things blew up but it was the elves trespassing in Orlais's territory & killing its civilians that made it really ugly

 

Its solidly implied Siona's sister was killed on the Dales side of the border just before the incident. The big difference is one got a written account and the other didn't. If Bioware had put in an account of the sister's death instead with an off hand mention of red-crossing happening afterwords. I wonder how the perception of the lead up to the war would change, even though the events technically remained the same. 

[Geth Supremacy]

Its solidly implied Siona's sister was killed on the Dales side of the border just before the incident. The big difference is one got a written account and the other didn't. If Bioware had put in an account of the sister's death instead with an off hand mention of red-crossing happening afterwords. I wonder how the perception of the lead up to the war would change, even though the events technically remained the same. 

 

are you real?

 

welcome back.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Its solidly implied Siona's sister was killed on the Dales side of the border just before the incident. The big difference is one got a written account and the other didn't. If Bioware had put in an account of the sister's death instead with an off hand mention of red-crossing happening afterwords. I wonder how the perception of the lead up to the war would change, even though the events technically remained the same. 

The lead up would still start the same: The Dales left Orlais to fend off the Blight by themselves for almost a century. 

[Drasanil]

are you real?

 

welcome back.

 

Yes and thanks

[Drasanil]

The lead up would still start the same: The Dales left Orlais to fend off the Blight by themselves for almost a century. 

 

Oh please, sitting out a blight is hardly a great historical crime in Thedas. Orlais and Tevinter did the same later on and started gobbling up pieces of the free marches afterwords. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh please, sitting out a blight is hardly a great historical crime in Thedas. Orlais and Tevinter did the same later on and started gobbling up pieces of the free marches afterwords.

They did it first.

Also to my knowledge the only blight Orlais sat out was the fifth.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The codex says a human kill her and they found their body, only that, they dont even know who killed her.

They were invading a foreign country, they had no right to kill her.

Because it was the nearest human settlement, how they would invade Orlais without passing by it?

 

The author of the codex doesn't go into detail about exactly how they know but it does say explicitly the Chantry killed her. If you assume he's unreliable about this, you might as well throw out the whole codex. But you have no reason to think he's wrong.

 

"As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In their haste and anger, they killed Siona's sister for wandering too near the hunter's path."

 

 

For the last time, the elves didn't go there to invade Red Crossing, they went to bring one of their own back. Besides, are you saying if you are in a foreign country you have no right to defend yourself?

 

The border Dales-Orlesian border is pretty big, why would an army be forced to go through Red Crossing?

 

And regarding Drakon, I was referring to the Daughters of Song codex found in the Fallow Mire. They were a hedonistic Andrastian Cult that was destroyed in Drakon's unification of Orlais.  At one point they "numbered in the thousands". When the Empire's armies attacked their village, they refused to fight back.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They did it first.

Also to my knowledge the only blight Orlais sat out was the fifth.

 

In the Fourth Blight they refused to send anything more than "token help" to other nations. And in the Third Blight they refused to intervene until the Grey Warden's pressured them into it, and even then they used the opportunity to attack the Free Marches afterward. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh please, sitting out a blight is hardly a great historical crime in Thedas. Orlais and Tevinter did the same later on and started gobbling up pieces of the free marches afterwords. 

But it's a great way to breed resentment when your neighbor is just sitting there while your friends, family, and countrymen suffer. Which was my point. 

[Master Warder Z_]

In the Fourth Blight they refused to send anything more than "token help" to other nations. And in the Third Blight they refused to intervene until the Grey Warden's pressured them into it, and even then they used the opportunity to attack the Free Marches afterward.

So they helped during all blights they were present for.

As I thought.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Token help isn't really helpful. And attacking people afterward is the opposite of helping. I'm also pretty sure that the Dales didn't have a treaty with the Wardens at the time and thus wouldn't have been pressured to intervene the same way Orlais was.

[Vit246]

But it's a great way to breed resentment when your neighbor is just sitting there while your friends, family, and countrymen suffer. Which was my point. 

Countries look out for their own first before others, even it looks to be a worldwide threat. Its the way of politics. And why single out the Dales?

[Master Warder Z_]

Token help isn't really helpful. And attacking people afterward is the opposite of helping. I'm also pretty sure that the Dales didn't have a treaty with the Wardens at the time and thus wouldn't have been pressured to intervene the same way Orlais was.

It's irrelevant to the point.

It was claimed they didn't assist.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It is relevant because sending no help and sending "help" which isn't useful are functionally the same thing - sitting out the blight. 

[Vit246]

So they helped during all blights they were present for.

As I thought.

If Orlais had had its way during the 3rd Blight, it would not have sent any aid to foreign countries. The Grey Wardens had to pressure them to reverse that.

[Master Warder Z_]

It is relevant because sending no help and sending "help" isn't useful are functionally the same thing - sitting out the blight.

It killed the invasion of Orlais which prevented another front from opening on the Blight and committed additional forces for international usage.

To me that's far from sitting out a Blight.

It was invaded.

[Master Warder Z_]

If Orlais had had its way during the 3rd Blight, it would not have sent any aid to foreign countries. The Grey Wardens had to pressure them to reverse that.

They still honored their commitment.

And when don't Grey Wardens have to force people to help them?

That's all DAO is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Countries look out for their own first before others, even it looks to be a worldwide threat. Its the way of politics. And why single out the Dales?

I'm not saying what the Dales did was right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that's where the animosity between them and Orlais starts. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It killed the invasion of Orlais which prevented another front from opening on the Blight and committed additional forces for international usage.

To me that's far from sitting out a Blight.

It was invaded.

 

Defending yourself when attacked by darkspawn is hardly noteworthy. The elves would have done the same. For all you know they did at some point over the 90 year period. But they don't control whether the darkspawn attack them or not.

 

If the Dales had repelled a darkspawn attack but done nothing else, would you no longer consider them as not sitting out the blight? Because that's very close to what Orlais did in the Fourth Blight.

 

 

They still honored their commitment.

And when don't Grey Wardens have to force people to help them?

That's all DAO is.

 

 

The Second Blight is the only time any power was proactive in fighting the darkspawn that I recall, which brings us back to Drakon's faults vs merits discussion.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because that's very close to what Orlais did in the Fourth Blight

How many thousands does a army have to contain to no longer be token forces?

[Boost32]

The author of the codex doesn't go into detail about exactly how they know but it does say explicitly the Chantry killed her. If you assume he's unreliable about this, you might as well throw out the whole codex. But you have no reason to think he's wrong.

"As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies. In their haste and anger, the killed Siona's sister for wander too near the hunter's path."


For the last time, the elves didn't go there to invade Red Crossing, they went to bring one of their own back. Besides, are you saying if you are in a foreign country you have no right to defend yourself?

The border Dales-Orlesian border is pretty big, why would an army be forced to go through Red Crossing?

And regarding Drakon, I was referring to the Daughters of Song codex found in the Fallow Mire. They were a hedonistic Andrastian Cult that was destroyed in Drakon's unification of Orlais. At one point they "numbered in the thousands". When the Empire's armies attacked their village, they refused to fight back.

Thats their assumptions, the rest of the codex is a relat of what happened at Red Crossing, the writer was there and saw what happened.

Yes they invaded, when a foreign military group goes to another country without any kind of permission its called a invasion. If I go through another country by illegals mean and I see a native who may or not attack me, I have no right to kill him until he becomes a threath. And the girl was alone, there was no way she would pose a danger against a elite group.

Because roads doesnt construct themselves over the night, when you invade another country with a army, you dont go through the forest.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

How many thousands does a army have to contain to no longer be token forces?

Does it matter? WoT specifically calls it a token force. So however many they were, they were enough to be token.