807 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

Pretty sure they do it on purpose just so they could feel sorry for themselves and have what to whine about.

[TheJediSaint]

And I see another elf thread is already on it's way to lockdown.

 

Also Warder aint a weeb.

He just really, really likes the bad guys in fiction.

[Boost32]

You're just assuming that is their assumption. The codex does not imply that it was or that they didn't have all the information. All it says is that is what happened. You're just doubting the humans struck first because then the elves are purely the aggressors.
 
"Invasion" implies they were meaning to attack Red Crossing. They weren't. They weren't even there to raid it. They didn't come for any humans. They were there for one of their own. The codex says that Adalene only saw Siona and ran screaming at her. The elves weren't there to fight. Self defense is self defense on either side of the border.
 
Do you know where Red Crossing is on a map? Or are you just assuming a tiny backwater village must be on the Imperial Highway AND the elves must have gone through it.
 
Red Crossing still exists, you know. If the elves wiped out a tiny village, why would the Orlesians have bothered to rebuild it. Also in the Mourning Halla mission on the War Table, the Dalish Keeper from the Exalted Plains wants to offer a gesture of goodwill as a sign of remorse for his peoples' actions that night. But he doesn't mention the elves doing anything worse to the village.

Invasion doesnt mean attack, invasion mean they entered a place without permission. They were foreign soldier who should have not crossed the orlesian border, they had no permission to enter it, when they did, they invaded Orlais.

Red Crossing is near the Dales. Montsimmard was razed by the elves and still exist. But ofc when the elves invaded they killed no one, they are completely innocent.

[dragonflight288]

Invasion doesnt mean attack, invasion mean they entered a place without permission. They were foreign soldier who should have not crossed the orlesian border, they had no permission to enter it, when they did, they invaded Orlais.

Red Crossing is near the Dales. Montsimmard was razed by the elves and still exist. But ofc when the elves invaded they killed no one, they are completely innocent.

You keep using the word invasion. Since I'm on my phone since my laptop crashed, I can't use the picture so I'll just quote it.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

As for Red Crossing and Montmissard, that only goes to show you the elves weren't interested in cultural genocide or ethnic cleansing, unlike Orlais and the Chantry.

[Steelcan]

You keep using the word invasion. Since I'm on my phone since my laptop crashed, I can't use the picture so I'll just quote it.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

As for Red Crossing and Montmissard, that only goes to show you the elves weren't interested in cultural genocide or ethnic cleansing, unlike Orlais and the Chantry.

Well armed soldiers entering a sovereign nation's territory with hostile intent is at the best a terrible idea.

 

I'm sorry, what part of burning the town down, sacking Monstimmard and bunring Val Royeaux makes them not interested in ethnic cleansing?  For all we know they might have intended on it after the war was over.  You really cannot put the elves on any moral high ground when their invasion was accompanied by sacking cities and looting towns, with presumably the civilian populace not being left alone

[dragonflight288]

Well armed soldiers entering a sovereign nation's territory with hostile intent is at the best a terrible idea.

I'm sorry, what part of burning the town down, sacking Monstimmard and bunring Val Royeaux makes them not interested in ethnic cleansing? For all we know they might have intended on it after the war was over. You really cannot put the elves on any moral high ground when their invasion was accompanied by sacking cities and looting towns, with presumably the civilian populace not being left alone

It wasn't hostile intent, it was to retrieve one of their own and find out if he was a traitor.

They weren't there to attack, they were more like a special ops group to get a single person. Only the mission went fubar over a misunderstanding.

As for the bit about ethnic cleansing, there are no sources, none, that says they wished to utterly and completely destroy the chantry and utterly wipe out all traces of Orlesian Culture. They fought war as it has always been fought. There is no such thing as a clean war that has one side spotless and the other completely at fault for everything that happened during it.

[Boost32]

You keep using the word invasion. Since I'm on my phone since my laptop crashed, I can't use the picture so I'll just quote it.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
As for Red Crossing and Montmissard, that only goes to show you the elves weren't interested in cultural genocide or ethnic cleansing, unlike Orlais and the Chantry.

invasion (ɪnˈveɪʒən)

1. (Military) the act of invading with armed forces
2. any encroachment or intrusion: an invasion of rats.
3. the onset or advent of something harmful, esp of a disease
4. (Pathology) pathol the spread of cancer from its point of origin into surrounding tissues
5. (Botany) the movement of plants to a new area or to an area to which they are not native
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

If I enter someone else's house without permission its called a invasion, if the owner kills me its self-defense, but after he tried to kill me I kill him, its murder because I invaded his house.

[Steelcan]

It wasn't hostile intent, it was to retrieve one of their own and find out if he was a traitor.

They weren't there to attack, they were more like a special ops group to get a single person. Only the mission went fubar over a misunderstanding.

As for the bit about ethnic cleansing, there are no sources, none, that says they wished to utterly and completely destroy the chantry and utterly wipe out all traces of Orlesian Culture. They fought war as it has always been fought. There is no such thing as a clean war that has one side spotless and the other completely at fault for everything that happened during it.

So their goal was to forcibly remove someone from said sovereign nation, or if he was being held against his will free him, likely involving violence against the population, how is that any better?  Its still hostile intent.

 

Yes, so don't pretend the elves have any sort of moral high ground in this debate as you implied when you said they weren't interested in ethnic cleanising, for one they might have been and we just don't know it and even if they weren't they way they waged war, while "acceptable" at the time, would be considered a war crime today

[SerendipitousElf]

invasion (ɪnˈveɪʒən)

1. (Military) the act of invading with armed forces
2. any encroachment or intrusion: an invasion of rats.
3. the onset or advent of something harmful, esp of a disease
4. (Pathology) pathol the spread of cancer from its point of origin into surrounding tissues
5. (Botany) the movement of plants to a new area or to an area to which they are not native
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

If I enter someone else's house without permission its called a invasion, if the owner kills me its self-defense, but after he tried to kill me I kill him, its murder because I invaded his house.

Isn't that what Tevinter did to the elves as described in the OP?

Thank you for confirming my point that the humans were the ones that invaded first.

So go ahead and blame the elves for being hostile bad neighbors for just defending themselves. Your post right  here renders the OP point moot.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, isn't it?

[Boost32]

Isn't that what Tevinter did to the elves as described in the OP?
Thank you for confirming my point that the humans were the ones that invaded first.
So go ahead and blame the elves for being hostile bad neighbors for just defending themselves. Your post right  here renders the OP point moot.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, isn't it?

What it have to do with the Red Crossing discussion?

[SerendipitousElf]

What it have to do with the Red Crossing discussion?

It has to do with the OP. If you think your post applies selectively, then you are mistaken in my opinion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait.... So now people are claiming the Dalish DIDN'T invade Orlais? The ****?.....

[Boost32]

It has to do with the OP. If you think your post applies selectively, then you are mistaken in my opinion.

No i dont think, but you quoted me, I wanted to know what it had to do with the Red Crossing discussion.
Now you already answered my question, thank, you. There is no need for us to continue.

[SerendipitousElf]

Wait.... So now people are claiming the Dalish DIDN'T invade Orlais? The ****?.....

No, people are claiming that Tevinter didn't invade Arlathan and the destruction of the elves was all their own fault.

But you nicely pointed what is considered an invasion and it refutes the above claims in the earlier posts.

[Boost32]

No, people are claiming that Tevinter didn't invade Arlathan and the destruction of the elves was all their own fault.
But you nicely pointed what is considered an invasion and it refutes the above claims in the earlier posts.

Now I see what its was all about, sorry I didnt read the first pages so I didnt understand what you were talking about.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, people are claiming that Tevinter didn't invade Arlathan and the destruction of the elves was all their own fault.

But you nicely pointed what is considered an invasion and it refutes the above claims in the earlier posts.

How is there any question wether or not Tevinter invaded Arlathan (Or Elvhenan whatever..)? 

[Bad King]

Except the elves.
They are useless, bring nothing good to Thedas, they waste precious oxygen and space. Their major contribution in the last 3 games is a Werewolf Curse, a abomination and the Breach.

 

Nice cherry picking there buddy. No mention of the various elven characters that played key positive roles in Thedassian history (such as Ameridan, Garahel and Shartan) and no mention of the various human characters that played key negative roles (such as the Magisters, the brain dead leaders of the Templar Order and the tyrannical rulers of Orlais). It baffles me that some people can have such highly simplistic and nonsensical views on the cultures and ethnicities of the DA universe even when the games go out of their way to depict racial or cultural groups as being internally highly diverse and complex.

[Boost32]

Nice cherry picking there buddy. No mention of the various elven characters that played key positive roles in Thedassian history (such as Ameridan, Garahel and Shartan) and no mention of the various human characters that played key negative roles (such as the Magisters, the brain dead leaders of the Templar Order and the tyrannical rulers of Orlais). It baffles me that some people can have such highly simplistic and nonsensical views on the cultures and ethnicities of the DA universe even when the games go out of their way to depict racial or cultural groups as being internally highly diverse and complex.

Never said it wasnt =P
And I said the 3 last games, not in Thedas history.
Anyway elves bores me, their culture from the present and from the the past are completely uninteresting for me.

[Sunnie]

Never said it wasnt =P
And I said the 3 last games, not in Thedas history.
Anyway elves bores me, their culture from the present and from the the past are completely uninteresting for me.

So, you're here why?

[Bad King]

Never said it wasnt =P
And I said the 3 last games, not in Thedas history.
Anyway elves bores me, their culture from the present and from the the past are completely uninteresting for me.

 

And that's why your argument is flawed: the games necessarily set up various conflicts and events in order to give the player dilemmas to solve. You mention the werewolves from DA:O and yet leave out Loghain and Howe's destructive actions, Uldred flooding the tower of Magi with abominations, Vaughan attempting to gang-rape a group of people abducted from a wedding etc. etc. It offers us a skewed perspective of the cultures and factions involved. The game lore is a better representation of these things but even that is highly selective and skewed by the biases of the writers involved, the institutions that perpetuate it and the people it depicts (much like real history, it tends only to comment on the actions of elites rather than common people). 

 

Well armed soldiers entering a sovereign nation's territory with hostile intent is at the best a terrible idea.

 

I'm sorry, what part of burning the town down, sacking Monstimmard and bunring Val Royeaux makes them not interested in ethnic cleansing?  For all we know they might have intended on it after the war was over.  You really cannot put the elves on any moral high ground when their invasion was accompanied by sacking cities and looting towns, with presumably the civilian populace not being left alone

 

Since when does sacking/burning cities equate to ethnic cleansing? Throughout history these things have been done to empower invading nations with plunder and as scorched earth policies to weaken the opposing nation. It's more likely that this was simply the strategy used to defeat the Orlesians rather than some sort of elven Lebensraum. There's no evidence that the elves intended to ethnically cleanse Orlais.

[Boost32]

So, you're here why?

To discuss the attack at red Crossing.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Invasion doesnt mean attack, invasion mean they entered a place without permission. They were foreign soldier who should have not crossed the orlesian border, they had no permission to enter it, when they did, they invaded Orlais.

Red Crossing is near the Dales. Montsimmard was razed by the elves and still exist. But ofc when the elves invaded they killed no one, they are completely innocent.

 

It does mean "attack" in the context you seem to be using it for. So did Orlais invade the Dales when they killed Siona's sister?

 

Montismmard is a major city, not a tiny town who's population could have been wiped out. Also, do you have a source that Montismmard was totally razed to the ground? Because every single source I've mentioned describes it being "captured." And while I'm at it, I still don't think there enough clear evidence to say the elves actually even did reach Val Royeaux.

 

Just being near the Dales still doesn't mean the elven armies passed through Red Crossing. You'll also remember that I never said the elves were completely innocent. In fact I was the one that said neither side was innocent. Only you were the one who said otherwise. You said the elves were exclusively to blame and the humans were innocent. They were not.

[Lady Artifice]

Never said it wasnt =P
And I said the 3 last games, not in Thedas history.
Anyway elves bores me, their culture from the present and from the the past are completely uninteresting for me.

 

So why not be realistic about why you don't like them. Your preferences don't objectively define their cultural value. 

[Boost32]

It does mean "attack" in the context you seem to be using it for. So did Orlais invade the Dales when they killed Siona's sister?
 
Montismmard is a major city, not a tiny town who's population could have been wiped out. Also, do you have a source that Montismmard was totally razed to the ground? Because every single source I've mentioned describes it being "captured." And while I'm at it, I still don't think there enough clear evidence to say the elves actually even did reach Val Royeaux.
 
Just being near the Dales still doesn't mean the elven armies passed through Red Crossing. You'll also remember that I never said the elves were completely innocent. In fact I was the one that said neither side was innocent. Only you were the one who said otherwise. You said the elves were exclusively to blame and the humans were innocent. They were not.

If she was killed by humans, yes, those human invaded the Dales.

Because when you capture a city you dont kill or destroy the gates.

So you think they left Red Crossing alone when they invaded Orlais? And I never said Orlais was innocent, I said Red Crossing was elven fault, the humans sis nothing wrong.

[Boost32]

So why not be realistic about why you don't like them. Your preferences don't objectively define their cultural value.

I thought people could see that post wasnt serious, Im sorry it was my mistake.