807 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Artifice]

I thought people could see that post wasnt serious, Im sorry it was my mistake.

 

No worries, it does make more sense as mockery than it does a serious assessment of their worth. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Red Crossing is small and unimportant. The elves would have had no reason to go out of there way attack it once the war started. Montsimmard was a strategically important city. Red Crossing is not. 

 

Not every city that is conquered is destroyed. Halamshiral was left an uninhabited ruin when it was conquered by Orlais. Denerim clearly was not. Montsimmard doesn't seem to have been either.

[Boost32]

Red Crossing is small and unimportant. The elves would have had no reason to go out of there way attack it once the war started. Montsimmard was a strategically important city. Red Crossing is not. 
 
Not every city that is conquered is destroyed. Halamshiral was left an uninhabited ruin when it was conquered by Orlais. Denerim clearly was not. Montsimmard doesn't seem to have been either.

Lets agree to disagree then, because I dont see how leaving a city near your border when you are invading another country is a viável plan. While its a small village it still have roads that can be used by the enemie's army.

I didnt said destroyed, i said razed, thought they werent the same (no irony, english is not my first language). Só lets me rephrase, I doubt when they captured Montsimmard they didnt destroyed their gate, killed people or pillaged.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Red Crossing is a tiny village, not a city. It doesn't even appear on the maps of Thedas we I have, I think. I don't think it's anywhere on the main route of the Highway to Montsimmard. It might even be less strategically valuable than Lothering. Celene and her party ran across an isolated village in The Masked Empire that was completely ignorant about the civil war. I imagine Red Crossing was roughly equivalent. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Red Crossing is a tiny village, not a city. It doesn't even appear on the maps of Thedas we I have, I think. I don't think it's anywhere on the main route of the Highway to Montsimmard. It might even be less strategically valuable than Lothering. Celene and her party ran across an isolated village in The Masked Empire that was completely ignorant about the civil war. I imagine Red Crossing was roughly equivalent. 

Red Crossing doesn't appear on the maps because they are modern... Red Crossing was burned to the ground, Montsimmard was SACKED (do you know the horrors that went on during a sacking of such large towns? It wasn't pretty), as was Val Royaux. Every source that mentions Val Royaux during the War with the Dales, mentions that it was besieged and lost to the Elves, that some omit to mention this, does NOT mean it didn't happen. The Elves were certainly not planning on letting Orlais, as a nation, survive the war, just like the Orlesians had no intentions of letting the Dales, as a nation, survive the war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Red Crossing doesn't appear on the maps because they are modern... Red Crossing was burned to the ground, Montsimmard was SACKED (do you know the horrors that went on during a sacking of such large towns? It wasn't pretty), as was Val Royaux. Every source that mentions Val Royaux during the War with the Dales, mentions that it was besieged and lost to the Elves, that some omit to mention this, does NOT mean it didn't happen. The Elves were certainly not planning on letting Orlais, as a nation, survive the war, just like the Orlesians had no intentions of letting the Dales, as a nation, survive the war.

 

Red Crossing still exists. It was not burned to ground.

 

And what sources mention the sack of Val Royeaux? Because it is conspicuously absent in both World of Thedas and Mother Giselle's account of the war. Those seem like the places it should have been mentioned. Halamshiral was also destroyed in the war (it was rebuild 300 years later). Montismmard was not. Does a source say it was sacked instead of occupied? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Red Crossing still exists.[/url] It was not burned to ground.

To be fair we have no idea if it wasn't burnt to the ground.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Red Crossing still exists. It was not burned to ground.

 

And what sources mention the sack of Val Royeaux? Because it is conspicuously absent in both World of Thedas and Mother Giselle's account of the war. Those seem like the places it should have been mentioned. Halamshiral was also destroyed in the war (it was rebuild 300 years later). Montismmard was not. Does a source say it was sacked instead of occupied? 

Multiple codices and items, some off-hand remark in WoT mentions they marched on Val Royaux, and Giselle not mentioning it, is proof of squat diggity. It just means that she is either A: an idiot (check), or B: Doesn't put much weight on that particular event.

And ALL Orlesians in Red Crossing were killed, to cover up what had happened probably(jolly good job there Dalish...).

 

In any case, the Dalish had no intentions of letting Orlais survive the war, that much can be extrapolated from their strategy.

[Caddius]

Red Crossing doesn't appear on the maps because they are modern... Red Crossing was burned to the ground, Montsimmard was SACKED (do you know the horrors that went on during a sacking of such large towns? It wasn't pretty), as was Val Royaux. Every source that mentions Val Royaux during the War with the Dales, mentions that it was besieged and lost to the Elves, that some omit to mention this, does NOT mean it didn't happen. The Elves were certainly not planning on letting Orlais, as a nation, survive the war, just like the Orlesians had no intentions of letting the Dales, as a nation, survive the war.

I think both Orlais and the Dales behaved badly. But there's a clear difference between sacking cities, which is what happens in every medieval war, and ethnic cleansing. Sacking involves looting, murder, arson, and rape. It's a horrible thing. But when the sack is done, the city is still there, and it's original people are still there. (In lesser numbers.) It's part of almost every war strategy in history. It does not equal ethnic cleansing. In its dying years, Rome suffered multiple sacks, but the city and people were still there. Ethnic cleansing is the complete removal of a people from a land in favor of settling your own people on it. The people are not removed with care.

Orlais has a history of brutal occupations. Witness Ferelden under Meghren. It's been awhile since I've read The Stolen Throne, but it seemed Orlais treated Ferelden as unruly and lesser subjects, with the peasants being treated as slaves much like they are in Orlais. They subverted the nobility. In a war that isn't out to seize entire territory, like the wars between Nevarra and Orlais, they exchange scraps of strategic territory.

The Dales as a nation was annihilated and its people either sent into centuries long exile, or shoved into ghettos and converted to Andrastianism, destroying most of elven culture, again.

I don't care if the Dalish started the war or if Orlais did. From the sounds of it, they'd both been skirmishing for years and were itching for a war to establish the power dynamic. The Dalish war goal was likely to subdue Orlais and ensure it's own sovereignty. They'd always been more focused on isolationism and recovering their own culture rather than playing imperial games. Orlais was an empire out to regain power. It was fading after the glory days of Drakon, and had lost its province of the Anderfels a few decades before the war. By the end, Orlais wanted the elves gone, and it seems the Chantry barely kept them from attempting genocide in favor of alienages.

Red Crossing is still in existence. This doesn't, as Warder points out, mean that it wasn't razed. People build settlements where settlements can be sustained. If you retrieve the history of the Red Crossing incident from the Emerald Graves and give it to the Dalish, the Dalish send a mourning halla to the people of the village of Red Crossing, in apology for what happened to their ancestors.

I believe it was a shield in Inquisition that makes mention of Val Royeaux being sacked, and elsewhere there's a Codex entry. Scanty references, however.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Bane of Red Crossing makes reference to the liberation of Val Royaux too.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Multiple codices and items, some off-hand remark in WoT mentions they marched on Val Royaux, and Giselle not mentioning it, is proof of squat diggity. It just means that she is either A: an idiot (check), or B: Doesn't put much weight on that particular event.

And ALL Orlesians in Red Crossing were killed, to cover up what had happened probably(jolly good job there Dalish...).

 

In any case, the Dalish had no intentions of letting Orlais survive the war, that much can be extrapolated from their strategy.

 

And what multiple codices are those specifically. We know they marched on Val Royeaux. But the sack of it was absent. A sack of Val Royeaux was mentioned in the old versions of lore (like the Prima Gide) but I believe it was retconed in World of Thedas. It's absent too many times when it should have been mentioned. Mother Giselle is Orlesian. She was actually making the case that the elves were not helpless victims. She mentioned the elves taking Montismmard but she still doesn't say they did more than threaten Val Royeaux. If they had sacked it, she would have mentioned it because it would have further made her point. World of Thedas is the same. It mentioned the fall of Montsimmard, but not Val Royeaux.

 

Unless you post a source, your claims about Red Crossing are baseless. 

[Caddius]

And what multiple codices are those specifically. We know they marched on Val Royeaux. But the sack of it was absent. A sack of Val Royeaux was mentioned in the old versions of lore (like the Prima Gide) but I believe it was retconed in World of Thedas. It's absent too many times when it should have been mentioned. Mother Giselle is Orlesian. She was actually making the case that the elves were not helpless victims. She mentioned the elves taking Montismmard but she still doesn't say they did more than threaten Val Royeaux. If they had sacked it, she would have mentioned it because it would have further made her point. World of Thedas is the same. It mentioned the fall of Montsimmard, but not Val Royeaux.

 

Unless you post a source, your claims about Red Crossing are baseless. 

http://dragonage.wik..._of_the_Emperor

Inquisition mentions the sack of Val Royeaux, but yeah, characters who should mention it don't. It's entirely possible that the Empire and the Chantry would rather forget that that happened.

I know of no sources that say that the elves slaughtered the entirety of Red Crossing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And what multiple codices are those specifically. We know they marched on Val Royeaux. But the sack of it was absent. A sack of Val Royeaux was mentioned in the old versions of lore (like the Prima Gide) but I believe it was retconed in World of Thedas. It's absent too many times when it should have been mentioned. Mother Giselle is Orlesian. She was actually making the case that the elves were not helpless victims. She mentioned the elves taking Montismmard but she still doesn't say they did more than threaten Val Royeaux. If they had sacked it, she would have mentioned it because it would have further made her point. World of Thedas is the same. It mentioned the fall of Montsimmard, but not Val Royeaux.

 

Unless you post a source, your claims about Red Crossing are baseless. 

From Codex Entry: Exalted march of the Dales:

"Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people."

 

Notice the word ENTIRE.

 

And as I said, Bane of Red Crossing makes mention of the liberation of Val Royaux, which means it must have been captured first.

[bluonblu]

I found something interesting while looking for non-Chantry info in World of Thedas Vol.2 .  If this was discussed already, I apologize.

 

So in DA:I we learned that the elves warred among themselves which caused their civilization to crumble. Then, we learned that a group of elves killed a human woman which triggered the Red crossing incident that led to the Exhalted March of the Dales.

 

Arguably, this is based on a lot of what Solas mentions or implies as well as bits of lore, but it seems elves have more than orchestrated their ruin once... 

 

1. Ancient elves enjoyed longevity (if not true immortality) and also had a unique connection to magic.  

2. Solas seems to recall (or be able to imagine very vividly - are we sure it's not a memory?) a time without the Fade. Which may account for the ancient elves' propensity for magic... This seems to be backed up not only by his conversation with Inky, but by a conversation with Varric. He seems to recall a time when Lyrium hadn't yet made its appearance.  

3. From Solas, we learn that ancient elven society was not rainbows and puppies, but rife with infighting. 

4. Merrill mentioned a tale of the Dread Wolf having tricked both the "good" and the "bad" elven gods once, locking them away.

5. Solas - who we know is the one called Dread Wolf - seems grimly determined to help the elves, even going as far as killing his old friend/ally. 

6. Once Dorian awkwardly tries to apologize to Solas on his countrymen's behalf for their part in destroying the ancient elven civilization, Solas responds saying that culture had crumbled before Tevinter could get their claws into it. 

7. The great city of the elves is believed to have been destroyed. Yet no one quite knows how... 

8. The Chantry (who may at best unite the disparate cultures of Thedas, yet whose truth-telling is rather questionable) holds that Tevinter mages had found a way through the Fade physically and corrupted the Golden City of the Maker, incidentally setting off the Blight.   

9. An actual member of that cabal of mages, however, holds they had found the City empty and didn't create, but find the corruption there. Both his sanity and his truth-telling skills are (at best) questionable, yet his memories as preserved in the memory crystals (?) in Dumat's temple seem to lend credence to his story. Sure, he might be insane just as easily.  

10. It was Tevinter Dreamers that received knowledge of blood magic. Arguably from being physically prevented from entering their world. 

11. It was from these beings that they learnt of the fabled Golden City, received instructions on how to breach the Fade and were ordered/convinced to challenge the Maker. 

 

Sure, this is speculation, bits and pieces maybe taken out of context and not necessarily in the most logical order. But: taken all together to me they suggest the ancient elves may have messed up more than once or twice, and more badly. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

From Codex Entry: Exalted march of the Dales:

"Or whether it is possible that someone saw benefit in sacrificing an entire village to justify the subjugation of an entire people."

 

Notice the word ENTIRE.

 

And as I said, Bane of Red Crossing makes mention of the liberation of Val Royaux, which means it must have been captured first.

 

That codex also says "No-one alive knows what happened at Red Crossing." It also refers to "the massacre at Red Crossing" as the elven raid that is always said to have started the war, meaning his thesis is still based on a the assumptions of the Chantry version of history. 

 

The information found in The Knight's Tomb is the real version of that story. It's not describing a separate event. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

http://dragonage.wik..._of_the_Emperor

Inquisition mentions the sack of Val Royeaux, but yeah, characters who should mention it don't. It's entirely possible that the Empire and the Chantry would rather forget that that happened.

I know of no sources that say that the elves slaughtered the entirety of Red Crossing.

 

I do remember those, but as I mentioned before lore found only in weapon descriptions always struck me as a bit iffy. This Maul mentions the darkspawn almost destroying Hossberg in the Third Blight, even though the Third Blight didn't affect the Anderfels. It's possible it's a mistake and it is supposed to be the Fourth Blight?

 

http://dragonage.wik.../The_Last_Stand

[MisterJB]

 

 

 

Why? The premise of the quickening is that contact with humans made the elves have the same lifespan as them. That already happened. More contact with humans can't make it worse. Ameridan suggests that the reason for the antipathy the Dales had for Orlais was because they thought Drakon was no better than the Imperium. And despite his heroism in the Second Blight, he has his share of faults. His armies are responsible for the deaths of thousands of pacifist Andrastian heretics.

The belief of the Dalish is that if they keep away from humans long enough, their immortality will return. Therefore, the elves of the Dales wouldn't have tolerated humans living in a conquered Orlais.

At best, displacement. At worst, genocide. Or the other way around, depending on one's point of view.

[MoonDrummer]

 

The belief of the Dalish is that if they keep away from humans long enough, their immortality will return. Therefore, the elves of the Dales wouldn't have tolerated humans living in a conquered Orlais.

At best, displacement. At worst, genocide. Or the other way around, depending on one's point of view.

 

Again, I doubt it, they would probably just weaken Orlais so that they couldn't threaten the Dales again, then back to isolationism. 

[Boost32]

Again, I doubt it, they would probably just weaken Orlais so that they couldn't threaten the Dales again, then back to isolationism.

Lol
"Im going to invade you just to make you weaker, then Im going back to where I came."

[Master Warder Z_]

He just really, really likes the bad guys in fiction.

I also like a fair number of protagonists and middle ground characters.

And the list of fictional antagonists I actually favor can fit on one hand.

[MoonDrummer]

Lol
"Im going to invade you just to make you weaker, then Im going back to where I came."

Didn't Rome do it to Macedon? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Didn't Rome do it to Macedon?

During which of their many wars?

The one were they invaded Greece while the empire was fighting carthage?

[Master Warder Z_]

Specifics are key in ancient history

[MoonDrummer]

During which of their many wars?

The one were they invaded Greece while the empire was fighting carthage?

 

Specifics are key in ancient history

The 3rd, I think. Rome basically punched Macedon in the face, split it up into a bunch of client states and went home. That is what I had in mind when talking about the Elven strategy anyway. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

That codex also says "No-one alive knows what happened at Red Crossing." It also refers to "the massacre at Red Crossing" as the elven raid that is always said to have started the war, meaning his thesis is still based on a the assumptions of the Chantry version of history. 

 

The information found in The Knight's Tomb is the real version of that story. It's not describing a separate event. 

No. What we get in The Knight's Tomb is the start. What we get there is how it started, it doesn't give us details about what happened after. Besides, even that codex TELLS US that they massacered the villagers, so I am not sure what you are getting at....