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[Master Warder Z_]

Solas also comments on Andraste's singing abiet indirectly.

[Monica21]

In Origins we learned during the Gauntlet that Andraste sang. It could be that The Dawn Will Come was a song written and originally sung by Andraste to her disciples during their march on Tevinter. Within the cultural context of Thedas, that seems to qualify it as a hymn to me - it's a song written and sung by the prophet of the faith for the faithful. Maybe not by a strict dictionary definition of the word, but in universe, I'd be willing to say they'd call it a hymn.

 

So, let me get this straight:

 

Andraste sang -> The Dawn Will Come is a song -> Andraste may have sung The Dawn Will Come -> Andraste definitely sang The Dawn Will Come -> It's a hymn because Andraste sang it

 

That about cover the logic there?

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd say a song that descends from Andraste would be considered holy.

[Monica21]

I'd say a song that descends from Andraste would be considered holy.

 

Why would you think the song descended from Andraste?

[dgcatanisiri]

So, let me get this straight:

 

Andraste sang -> The Dawn Will Come is a song -> Andraste may have sung The Dawn Will Come -> Andraste definitely sang The Dawn Will Come -> It's a hymn because Andraste sang it

 

That about cover the logic there?

 

Not just that she sang it, but that she WROTE it as well. That this song was written by Andraste, the chosen prophet and bride to the Maker. As a result, yes, the followers of Andrastrian faith would consider it holy. And so by their definition, it would qualify as a hymn. Again, not a strict dictionary definition, but what the characters in universe would call a hymn.

[Monica21]

Not just that she sang it, but that she WROTE it as well. That this song was written by Andraste, the chosen prophet and bride to the Maker. As a result, yes, the followers of Andrastrian faith would consider it holy. And so by their definition, it would qualify as a hymn. Again, not a strict dictionary definition, but what the characters in universe would call a hymn.

 

You realize that you can't just make stuff up and have it be true to fit your narrative, right? It's a song. Mother Giselle sang it. There is nothing religious about it and there is zero evidence that it was effing written by Andraste. Not a hymn. End.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why would you think the song descended from Andraste?

It sounds like something she'd sing

[raging_monkey]

It sounds like something she'd sing

you lived in her era?

[Monica21]

It sounds like something she'd sing

 

Sound reasoning skills right here.

[Sunnie]

Really, its just a song about hope. It doesn't have to be written by Andraste, or sung primarily in a chantry, or lorded over by some Divine.

It's just a song about picking yourself up, of carrying on and moving forward, even in the darkest and most hopeless of times. It was likely inspired and written by an Andrastian faithful, but that is unimportant to the message. 

 

In our real world, there are a lot of songs that were inspired by faith that are not religious, "The Dawn Will Come" is likely the same deal.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sound reasoning skills right here.

It's better reasoning then simply stating it isn't without offering anything to support it.

I'd say anyway.

[Monica21]

It's better reasoning then simply stating it isn't without offering anything to support it.

I'd say anyway.

 

Yeah, because that's exactly what I've been doing.

 

 

I'm curious why everyone thinks it's a Chantry hymn. It has absolutely no religious overtones or mentions of the Maker, Andraste, the Golden City, nothing. To me it's more like everyone knowing the words to Somewhere Over the Rainbow. The only context is that the song is begun by a Chantry Sister, but that doesn't make it religious.

 

 

And Europeans know Over the Rainbow. I'm just saying there's nothing identifiably religious, or even specifically Chantry-like, about that particular song.

 

 

I'm not disputing any of that. I'm saying that there's nothing identifiably religious about the song. There is no mention of a higher power or a church or anything. That's not typically the way hymns work. I'm not saying it wasn't spread because of the spread of the Chantry, I'm saying that there's nothing about the song that makes it religious.

 

 

I grew up going to church, so perhaps that's where my beef with the song being called a hymn comes from. It's just not. A song sung by a member of the Chantry does not mean it's a hymn. A hymn a song sung in praise or worship of a deity and there's really no getting around that defintion. There are no such mentions in the song. It's much closer to a folk song, which is why I brought up If I Had a Hammer. We sang that in Sunday School, but it's not a hymn. It's not religious. It's just a hopeful song and that's all.

 

 

You realize that you can't just make stuff up and have it be true to fit your narrative, right? It's a song. Mother Giselle sang it. There is nothing religious about it and there is zero evidence that it was effing written by Andraste. Not a hymn. End.

 

Words have meanings. You can't simply throw them around and hope they mean what you think they mean.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, because that's exactly what I've been doing.

Working off conjecture certainly.

Would you argue "Maker" was a hymn strictly because it mentions the deity of the Andrastian faith?

[Monica21]

Working off conjecture certainly.

Would you argue "Maker" was a hymn strictly because it mentions the deity of the Andrastian faith?

 

What conjecture? There are lyrics to which I listened when they sang the song. No mention of the Maker. So, what are you talking about?

[Master Warder Z_]

What conjecture? There are lyrics to which I listened when they sang the song. No mention of the Maker. So, what are you talking about?

Since you apparently ignored my post (big surprise)

http://dragonage.wik...ron_of_the_Arts

I was wondering if you'd ascribe "Maker" as him simply due to it's subject matter.

[Monica21]

Since you apparently ignored my post (big surprise)

http://dragonage.wik...ron_of_the_Arts

I was wondering if you'd ascribe "Maker" as him simply due to it's subject matter.

 

It's been like three months since I've played the game. I didn't ignore your post; I'd forgotten that song was in the game. And I'd say not directly, but certainly closer to a hymn than The Dawn Will Come, if only because yes, the singer is beseeching Maker.

[In Exile]

You realize that you can't just make stuff up and have it be true to fit your narrative, right? It's a song. Mother Giselle sang it. There is nothing religious about it and there is zero evidence that it was effing written by Andraste. Not a hymn. End.

But if it was written by Andraste, would you say it was a hymn? I think the idea that a faith would have seemingly nondenominational holy songs is a fascinating one.

[Monica21]

But if it was written by Andraste, would you say it was a hymn? I think the idea that a faith would have seemingly nondenominational holy songs is a fascinating one.

 

Here's the line from the Gauntlet: "I was Andraste's dearest friend in childhood, and always we would sing. She celebrated the beauty of life, and all who heard her would be filled with joy. They say the Maker himself was moved by Andraste's song, and then she sang no more of simple things." She didn't necessarily always sing religious songs, and perhaps not even after the Maker "took notice" of her. And the phrasing makes it sound as if the Maker was just as filled with awe by her voice as by the content of her song.

 

And honestly, I don't know if I would. For example, there are plenty of books that aren't in the canonical Bible but are still written by prophets and apostles. I'm not a religious scholar so I can't tell you the reason why 1 and 2 Maccabees is in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant Bible. And now you've got me thinking. There's a lot in the Bible that isn't explicitly religious. That song sounds like it would be more suited to something like Lamentations or Psalms. If something is part of a religious text and then someone sets it to music, then I suppose that yes, you could make the argument that it's a song of worship.

 

However, the idea that Andraste wrote The Dawn Will Come is really stretching the argument past its breaking point.

[Master Warder Z_]

It makes sense if she wrote it during the war with the Imperium.

[CreepingShadow]

Yeah, as everyone said, it's just a folk/religious song. It has no deeper signifigance. Honestly I don't see why everyone thinks the song is so great, personally I prefer Leliana's Song/In Uthenera when it comes to out of place and completely unnecessary mid-game musical numbers, but maybe that's just me.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, as everyone said, it's just a folk/religious song. It has no deeper signifigance. Honestly I don't see why everyone thinks the song is so great, personally I prefer Leliana's Song/In Uthenera when it comes to out of place and completely unnecessary mid-game musical numbers, but maybe that's just me.

But...there are no lyrics...

She's just screeching.

[Lady Artifice]

We don't live in Thedas and therefore only see it through the lens with which Bioware presents their society. There clearly is a non-Andrastian song that everyone knows, because Mother Giselle sang it. Christianity dominates modern Western society, but that doesn't mean we don't have songs that aren't explicitly religious and yet are still hopeful.

 

But...that's the debate isn't it? Because I don't think that it's "clear." My interpretation of the Dawn Will Come was that it's about hope for the Maker to again bestow his favor on the world. It might be a vague song, but it might still be associated with Andrastianism. For example, a christian song doesn't need to explicitly mention Christ to be favored by the christian church, as I'm sure you know. 

 

I don't pretend to have any proof that it is, but it seems like a reasonable assertion based on context clues. They believe that they've witnessed a miracle involving the herald of Andraste. Gisele is trying to stir up hope, and the implication that she's doing by appealing to their faith isn't so improbable. 

 

And while christianity is still the most dominant religion of modern western society, I don't think that's the same as saying it dominates it. Much of western society has the separation of church and state, and the Chantry has a lot more practical control over political matters than any church in say, the U.S. Most of the people following the Inquisition have looked to the chantry for all of their guidance and learning. I think the exposure to non-andrastian songs would be rare outside of taverns, and I don't think most tavern songs are about hope. 

[Monica21]

But...that's the debate isn't it? Because I don't think that it's "clear." My interpretation of the Dawn Will Come was that it's about hope for the Maker to again bestow his favor on the world. It might be a vague song, but it might still be associated with Andrastianism. For example, a christian song doesn't need to explicitly mention Christ to be favored by the christian church, as I'm sure you know. 

 

I don't pretend to have any proof that it is, but it seems like a reasonable assertion based on context clues. They believe that they've witnessed a miracle involving the herald of Andraste. Gisele is trying to stir up hope, and the implication that she's doing by appealing to their faith isn't so improbable. 

 

And while christianity is still the most dominant religion of modern western society, I don't think that's the same as saying it dominates it. Much of western society has the separation of church and state, and the Chantry has a lot more practical control over political matters than any church in say, the U.S. Most of the people following the Inquisition have looked to the chantry for all of their guidance and learning. I think the exposure to non-andrastian songs would be rare outside of taverns, and I don't think most tavern songs are about hope. 

 

The debate is whether or not it's a religious hymn. If you have to make an interpretation based on what you admittedly call vague lyrics, then wouldn't it make sense to fall into the "it's not" camp? It's literally no different than singing a folk song. The debate isn't whether it could be religious. It's whether it explicitly is. A hymn has to be explicitly religious. That is not my opinion, that's fact.

[Lady Artifice]

The debate is whether or not it's a religious hymn. If you have to make an interpretation based on what you admittedly call vague lyrics, then wouldn't it make sense to fall into the "it's not" camp? It's literally no different than singing a folk song. The debate isn't whether it could be religious. It's whether it explicitly is. A hymn has to be explicitly religious. That is not my opinion, that's fact.

 

In that case, we are arguing two different points. I easily concede that it isn't a hymn, but I do think that's it's more likely to be generally considered Andrastian than not, and that's primarily because I don't actually think it's more likely to be just a folk song based on the context. 

 

Most of the folk songs I know are about fun, or tragedy, or satire. Songs meant to be inspiring and hopeful are, in my experience, usually about God or country. 

 

I think a song about hope in Andrastian society is more likely to have commonly perceived Andrastian implications. Mostly because of how often hope and faith are wrapped up together in general, and to me these lyrics in particular sound like they're just as much about faith as hope. 

 

The shepard's lost

And his home is far
Keep to the stars
The dawn will come

 

People usually need a reason for such certain assurances. This isn't just, "chin up and hope for the best," this is, "raise your eyes and know that there is hope." 

[In Exile]

Here's the line from the Gauntlet: "I was Andraste's dearest friend in childhood, and always we would sing. She celebrated the beauty of life, and all who heard her would be filled with joy. They say the Maker himself was moved by Andraste's song, and then she sang no more of simple things." She didn't necessarily always sing religious songs, and perhaps not even after the Maker "took notice" of her. And the phrasing makes it sound as if the Maker was just as filled with awe by her voice as by the content of her song.

 

That's not the argument. The argument is that (1) Andraste is divine; (2) because Andraste is divine, things surrounding her take on a divine quality; (3) Andraste sang songs of personal meaning to her (or others, or situations in her life); which (4) acquire divine significance, because they originate with Andraste. Put differently, the songs aren't religious because of their content, but because Andraste sang them. If she sang Over the Rainbow, it would become religious because she sang it. 

 

And honestly, I don't know if I would. For example, there are plenty of books that aren't in the canonical Bible but are still written by prophets and apostles. I'm not a religious scholar so I can't tell you the reason why 1 and 2 Maccabees is in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant Bible. And now you've got me thinking. There's a lot in the Bible that isn't explicitly religious. That song sounds like it would be more suited to something like Lamentations or Psalms. If something is part of a religious text and then someone sets it to music, then I suppose that yes, you could make the argument that it's a song of worship.

 

However, the idea that Andraste wrote The Dawn Will Come is really stretching the argument past its breaking point.

 

I don't see what's different between different parts of the bible - or different parts of what someone sanctions as being part of the bible - but again, atheist brought up in a secular household. The parts of the bible that stand out to me (e.g. who has to buy a donkey that falls into a hole you've dug) are pretty different.