223 réponses à ce sujet

[NRieh]

 

And I guess, to avoid the panic, you could send a raven or something?

Actually (according to 'Asunder') they've got some sort of 'magic instant messenger'. I can't say that I approve that 'a wizard did it' approach, it spells 'Plot Magic' to me, but it was technically possible to inform all the Circles about the urgent matter in the White Spire. No details are given, though.

 

My guess is that even on siding with the Templars Inquisition by the moment of Arbor Wilds is cool enough to get an access to all the useful magics and devices*...

___

* Other than hiring a healer-mage, of course. Rhys and Anders are mentioned, but not interested.  

[PhroXenGold]

The thing is, Bioware did a lot of good with Corypheus. He was a constant - albeit in the background. Unlike DA:O, we had an actual antagonist we took steps to thwart. He was - via In Your Heart Shall Burn (and IMO potentially In Hushed Whispers) - introduced in an absolutely phenomenal fashion. 

 

We just needed more confrontation. I thought Virmire did a lot wrong in ME1, but one thing it did right was (1) feature a Saren/Shepard showdown where (2) both Shepard and Saren came off bloodied.

 

We need more confrontations with the Big Bad ™ throughout the game, where we trade blows. 

 

I think this is part of it. The other part is that we need to lose to Cory at least once. And lose big time. Not like In Your Heart.... where, to all intents and purposes, the Inquisition won a strategic victory - they closed the breach, destroyed a significant portion of Cory's forces and managed to withdraw the bulk of their people including the entire leadership despite being attacked by overwhelming force. Even more than the lack of direct confrontation, the fact that whenever you go up against Cory or his forces, you win, or at the very least, you disrupt his plans (e.g. at the conclave), really takes away from him as a creditable antagonist. By the finale, killing him felt more like putting him out of his misery instead of defeating a huge threat. And that was such a let down to me, as I think Cory had so much potential be to a great villain, based on his character and story, and indeed, as you point out, his initial introduction.

 

Having him really defeat you at least once builds him up as a credible threat far more. And it makes thing more personal. You want to get him back. You want revenge. Both of which are central to creating great villains IMO.

 

For me, Bioware's two best antagonists by a country mile are Irenicus and Sun Li. And both of them have this kind of moment when they triumph over you - for Irenicus, it's him taking your soul. For Sun Li, it's him killing you and taking the throne. Cory never has anything even close to those events.

 

The closest is the Haven part of In Your Heart Shall Burn, as he certainly does damage to you, but even then, look at how it ended. You outsmart Cory, taking advantage of his arrogance to release the trebuchet and trigger an avalanche. That scene leaves the Inquisitor looking good and the big bad, for all that his introduction over the previous minutes was excellent, looking stupid. Straight away, he's immediately made to appear significantly less threatening. I would've had no problem with his arrogance casuing him to let you live after beating you (e.g. he tosses you aside after failing to take the anchor back and you are able to escape), but for the big bad to lose to you mere minutes after his introduction makes him look weak. And for an antagonist of the world threatening type like Cory, that's pretty much the worst thing you can do.

[NRieh]

 

He went with his Plan A - crush Orlais with a demon army and a political assassination. And he would have gotten away with it if it weren't for that pesky Inquisitor.

Riiight. Why attacking the Skyhold before it is even rebuilt? It's better to make a wild scheme that involves the prequel novel characters (Or what's left of them) and mess with the Wardens.

 

I can understand why Saren did not really care about taking out Shepard, I can even assume that Harbinger's machine logic could not calculate the potential outcome of Shep's intervention(because ME is anything but logical, with all my loving for the ME series). But why ignoring the Inquisition? The ONLY person in the world that can fix those holes, and that has already proven to be a PITA by snatching half of his forces (Mages\Templars)?

 

3 years seem plausible indeed, especially when you think of the world size. But it also makes Cory look really, really-really stupid. Never an attempt to go for the Inq personally. Not even after the Shrine, not even after their first success (e.g. first mission after the 'In your Heart' ). Honestly, DA2 had been accused in poor representation of the timeline, but I think that Inquisition has it even worse. Unfortunately. In DA2 we (at least) KNOW that time goes on.      

[badkenbad]

I believe there is one in the DA tabletop game handbook. Someone linked a copy of it here: http://daydreamsonac...ap-scale-1-inch

 

That's where that chart of travel times upthread comes from: http://daydreamsonac...-i-travel-times

 

Here's another time/distance map someone did with the RPG info: http://dragonagenews...ravel-time-maps(warning music autoplay)

 

There's just one small problem with those maps. The scale on them is not in the Dragon Age RPG book. Someone photoshopped that scale into the image. Why would someone do that? I have no idea. The scale is just too small. It doesn't match the one solid reference we do have from the game.

 

Also, there is no information in the player or GM guide as to the scale of the maps. It's maddeningly frustrating! The book goes into every detail of the countries of Thedas except their size.

 

Here's the page that map is on:

 

[andy6915]

I think the main problem people have is how long it takes to travel between nations when you don't have modern day travel. People think "this quest only took half an hour" without realizing that it could have taken an entire month just to even arrive at said quest.

[andy6915]

I did some calculations based on travel time, and came up with two years worth of travel time just to complete the Inquisitor's Path. Throw in any of the side quests or visits to other areas and a complete playthrough could easily reach five years.

 

Details here: http://forum.bioware...ge-inquisition/

 

There really is no indication whatsoever in the game how much time passes during any of the major events. Thinking about it logically, though, you cross half of Thedas several times during the game, often crossing wilderness with no maintained roads at all. You travel back and forth to Skyhold a lot - and Skyhold is nowhere near the Imperial Highway or any port in Orlais. Round trip travel to the Hinterlands alone is at least a month, and you make that trip quite a few times, not to mention tooling around in the Hinterlands itself. A round trip to Val Royeaux would likely take twice as long - months. It's much further, but you can take a well-maintained highway, or go out of your way and take a ship.

 

You take an ARMY to Adamant, in the middle of the Western Approach, halfway across the continent. You take an army to the Arbor Wilds, which is a massive distance, across the Frostbacks, through the war-torn Dales and thick, unfriendly forests. Those journeys take many months, and they are only part of the story.

 

 

About the only quest you do that doesn't take months is Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, because Halamshiral is relatively close to Skyhold, and on the Imperial Highway.

 

And I'm quoting this so people see it again. I don't think it's a coincidence that he just happened to guess almost exactly the length of time DAI takes place over the course of, which means this is actually pretty darned accurate even if people earlier in the threat argued him about it.

[NRieh]

@andy6915

While your calculations are good, they create more questions than they are supposed to answer, imo. E.g. it means that Celene& Gaspard could not turn their conflict one way or another for 2 years (Asunder ends at 9.41). And it also means 3 years with no Divine.   

[andy6915]

@andy6915

While your calculations are good, they create more questions than they are supposed to answer, imo. E.g. it means that Celene& Gaspard could not turn their conflict one way or another for 2 years (Asunder ends at 9.41). And it also means 3 years with no Divine.   

 

They're not my calculations. At all. They're the person I quoted's calculations, badkenbad's.

[nightscrawl]

There's just one small problem with those maps. The scale on them is not in the Dragon Age RPG book. Someone photoshopped that scale into the image. Why would someone do that? I have no idea. The scale is just too small. It doesn't match the one solid reference we do have from the game.

 

Also, there is no information in the player or GM guide as to the scale of the maps. It's maddeningly frustrating! The book goes into every detail of the countries of Thedas except their size.

 

Here's the page that map is on:

 

 

Aw, now I'm bummed out that those previously-linked maps aren't accurate.   Which "one solid reference" from the game are you referring to? Dagna's line from DAO?

 

I will say one thing, at least for most of the travel there is the benefit of The Imperial Highway. Thank the Maker for those Vints, eh?

[NRieh]

 

They're not my calculations. At all. They're the person I quoted's calculations, badkenbad's.

Oh, sorry, my mistake! Still, I think that there are things that do not really fit the 'realistic' 3-years span.

 

(And I'm not even talking about having their first sex  'one day, 2 years later, in a Keep' with a constant party member, really  )

[turuzzusapatuttu]

The first time I saw that tweet I thought Gaider had misunderstood the question, he had thought that the question was about the development time the devs employed to make Inquisition.

 

It seems to me that three years is way too much for a plot like this, and I don't think the lead writer would be so unsure about his own story.

 

Or maybe he was simply joking.

[dawnstone]

There's just one small problem with those maps. The scale on them is not in the Dragon Age RPG book. Someone photoshopped that scale into the image. Why would someone do that? I have no idea. The scale is just too small. It doesn't match the one solid reference we do have from the game.

 

Also, there is no information in the player or GM guide as to the scale of the maps. It's maddeningly frustrating! The book goes into every detail of the countries of Thedas except their size.

 

Here's the page that map is on:

 

But seriously, if you work it all out realistically it would have to take more than a year. I like the 2 year minimum that you've established, because the side stuff can be written off as post-plot clean up, and I guess there are things like Haste spells.

[PapaCharlie9]

If fast-travelling back to camp to heal up takes at least one full day, three years is a gross underestimate. For my first PT, anyway.

[In Exile]

I guess the trick with trading blows with Corypheus multiple times is that the first actual battle we'd have with him would just serve as the reveal as to exactly how he cheats death, which an elven booby trap illustrated for us. But we do get to fight his lieutenant (maybe). Samson isn't the most compelling character in the world to me, but I rather enjoyed his boss battle.

 

But that would make him compelling. Think about it: a boss battle on endless loop unless you run away. How many times can you - as the player - murder a thing as your resources deplete before even you - the player - feel overwhelmed by an unkillable entity? Creating an enemy that can't die through conventional means and auto-respawns is probably the only and best way to make a threatening antagonist in a game, where you basically have to win every encounter to progress.

 

No XP, no loot, just endless fighting until you run. That IMO is how all the Elder One encounters should go, until the endgame. It makes it feel like a real victory when we break his immorality, and it helps to explain why his troops think he's a good - in a kind of reverse Haven, they see him fall only to rise again. 

[In Exile]

Riiight. Why attacking the Skyhold before it is even rebuilt? It's better to make a wild scheme that involves the prequel novel characters (Or what's left of them) and mess with the Wardens.

 

I can understand why Saren did not really care about taking out Shepard, I can even assume that Harbinger's machine logic could not calculate the potential outcome of Shep's intervention(because ME is anything but logical, with all my loving for the ME series). But why ignoring the Inquisition? The ONLY person in the world that can fix those holes, and that has already proven to be a PITA by snatching half of his forces (Mages\Templars)?

 

3 years seem plausible indeed, especially when you think of the world size. But it also makes Cory look really, really-really stupid. Never an attempt to go for the Inq personally. Not even after the Shrine, not even after their first success (e.g. first mission after the 'In your Heart' ). Honestly, DA2 had been accused in poor representation of the timeline, but I think that Inquisition has it even worse. Unfortunately. In DA2 we (at least) KNOW that time goes on.      

 

Attack Skyhold with what exactly? The shattered corpse of his army that we beat? A dragon we'd successfully kill, and end his immortality right then and there? Attacking Skyhold would be stupid on every level, as Corypheus lost the three advantages he had: superior numbers, the element of surprise, and the favourable conditions of Haven (i.e., that it's not an easily defensible position). 

 

I'm with PhroXenGold - we beat Corypheus, more or less, in In Your Heart Shall Burn. IMO, that was a necessary victory because depending on your game path you might very well have had 2+ solid hours of depressing apocalypse, but we did win. 

[Akrabra]

3 years? Wow. It didn't really feel any longer than Origins to be honest. And that was about 1 year with Awakening included? Though i guess if you are gonna travel in both Ferdelden and Orlais alot of time would pass.

[NRieh]

 

Attack Skyhold with what exactly? The shattered corpse of his army that we beat? A dragon we'd successfully kill, and end his immortality right then and there?

In case you haven't noticed, that dragon is not that easy to kill. It took another Very Magic Dragon + some heavy beating. And that's when Inq&co were prepared to face him. Skyhold does not seem to have an AA defense, not especially at the beginning. Venatori+Red Templars+ few crazed wardens+corrupted high dragon + ex-Magister bold enough to enter the Gold\Black city vs pack of wounded refugees and militia.

 

 

superior numbers, the element of surprise, and the favourable conditions of Haven (i.e., that it's not an easily defensible position).

I don't see where you get the 'superior numbers' on the Inq side early in game, and dragon obviously does not care about the walls. Afair, Blackwall even mentions something about  it. 

[In Exile]

In case you haven't noticed, that dragon is not that easy to kill. It took another Very Magic Dragon + some heavy beating. And that's when Inq&co were prepared to face him. Skyhold does not seem to have an AA defense, not especially at the beginning. Venatori+Red Templars+ few crazed wardens+corrupted high dragon + ex-Magister bold enough to enter the Gold\Black city vs pack of wounded refugees and militia.

I don't see where you get the 'superior numbers' on the Inq side early in game, and dragon obviously does not care about the walls. Afair, Blackwall even mentions something about it.

You can turf a high dragon in the Hinterlands before you even get to In Your Heart Shall Burn. Sorry, but the idea that this thing is a threat isn't something you're selling me on. Blackwall makes the point Skyhold can handle a dragon. And Corypheus uses it for bombing runs. All the dragon does at Haven is nuke your gate. Like in DAO the other dragon isn't there to kill the red lyrium dragon or even hurt it - it's there to swat it out of the sky. If Corypheus uses it for a conventional attack - has it land - he's SOL.

And that's assuming Skyhold is regular castle. Which we know for a fact it is not. Maybe it DOES have magical AA guns.

Corypheus had superior numbers. And they all got buried alive at Haven. His entire army gets avalanched. Really the fact he has living forces at all is contrived.

[BubbleDncr]

Yea I don't buy 3 years. Felt like maybe a year to me. 

[CronoDragoon]

And that's assuming Skyhold is regular castle. Which we know for a fact it is not. Maybe it DOES have magical AA guns.

Right. Morrigan mentions Skyhold has ancient elven protections still in place. Not to mention Corpyheus is only as strong as he is because of the orb, an elven artifact, and I'm all right with the idea that screwing with Skyhold might be more trouble than it's worth from his point of view.

All things considered, his plan in Doom wasn't actually that bad. Because the Inquisition's forces were still relocating, he knows he'll have a fairly even fight if he can draw the Inquisitor out (more or less) alone, which is a given if he tries to reopen the Breach. He couldn't have counted on Morrigan/Mythal dragon tipping the battle in the Inquisitor's favor.

[midnight tea]

I think it's supposed to be somewhat fluid. If people just rush through the main quest - a year. If people take their time - about two or three.

[badkenbad]

Aw, now I'm bummed out that those previously-linked maps aren't accurate.   Which "one solid reference" from the game are you referring to? Dagna's line from DAO?

 

I will say one thing, at least for most of the travel there is the benefit of The Imperial Highway. Thank the Marker for those Vints, eh?

 

Yeah, Dagna's quote that "it takes a minimum of two weeks and four days to make the journey to the Circle Tower and back." is the source I meant. That's nine days one way from Orzammar to the Lake Calenhad docks, which is a very small part of Ferelden if you look at the map. Nine days walking in good weather on a good road (which that trip is) is 180 miles, not 18 miles.

 

I haven't been able to find any other solid reference to travel time in the games or books, but my search has been by no means exhaustive. I'd love it if someone came up with another reference so we at least had some confirmation that either Dagna was accurate or (and this is much more likely the case) that Bioware writers really don't care much about accurate time and distance scales.

 

From the perspective of a writer, nailing down that information is trouble. As someone on reddit wisely mentioned, things happen "at the speed of plot" and really, that's how it should be.

 

The reason I'm so vocal about this particular issue, though, is that the conventional wisdom of "about a year" is incredibly off base if you take a detailed look at the maps, the travel time involved, and the more mundane events of the game like repairing Skyhold, keeps, and bridges, and marching armies half way across the world.

[Torgette]

It wasn't meant to be taken seriously according to David.

Clearly this changes everything!

[badkenbad]

It wasn't meant to be taken seriously according to David.

 

And he told you this... over lunch the other day?

 

Forgive my skeptcicism, but there is a lot of unsubstantiated talk on all kinds of DA-related forums and web pages around this subject.