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[Ambivalent]

I haven't finished DA:I yet so please no spoilers.

 

1) Anybody else feel Loghain is a wasted potential of a true, sensible villain?

 

He was not "Howe" kinda villain at start.

 

He was right about some things. Orlessians raped and murdered his mother, took their lands, forced him and his father to exile. He supported Maric and it was thanks to them Ferelden saved. Grey Wardens had a "betrayal" time, also Cailan's "fascination with Wardens" even disturbed neutral people, even Duncan had doubts about victory. Not gonna mention Cailan's idea of breaking up from Anora to marry Orlessian queen.

 

Some people say "It was already lost, if it wasn't for Loghain we'd lose more people and stand defenseless"

 

So i may not support but i can understand his "betrayal". Most people would do same in his shoes, just too afraid to admit that.

 

Then i'm not sure but Bioware thought they needed more "evil" villain so he started to do or allow people to do "simple" evil stuff. Like sending assassins, slavery of elves, poisoning Eamon etc.

 

Even Eamon says "Loghain was a sensible man. What changed?"

 

I guess Bioware's idea changed

 

But seriously.

 

If i was designer of Loghain i'd make his actions make more sense. Maybe he could contact us instead of sending assassins, maybe he could send a messenger.

 

I would make Landsmeet availible just after Eamon's cure. Not that Dalish elves, dwarves or mages/templars have any influence on politics anyway. Ferelden politics is simply there for human nobles, it is their playground. (Actually i'd make all ally quests optional but that's another topic.) 

 

So i think he had an amazing background and a nice start that can make sense in time actually but his potential is wasted to include another boss in game. He could be more persuasive, more "smart" in his actions. So we would be actually can't decide between "choices" about what to do about him, at Landsmeet etc. (Just to record Landsmeet was pretty badly done)

 

Also he always felt like "a late arrival to party" because he can be recruited really late, which i think bad design. Makes Alistair choice easier because you already shared 90% of the game together.

 

Hmm actually there is no choice at all thanks to differences between Loghain becoming too "evul, 666". Which is my real problem here

 

2) Too many "Maker, Andraste, religion" stuff in general

 

Okay i got Leliana's admiration about "Maker" and i totally understand that it was her "cure".  I totally love her character too. 

 

But isn't it tiring that everyone, even atheists like Morrigan keep talking about Maker, Andraste etc. ? (Logic behind talking about a god/religion/prophet if you don't believe it always makes me giggle a bit in RL. So you believe but don't like it or you don't believe its existence? If Bioware thought of that irony and include it because of this haha i'll give them a cookie)

 

It is not about being religious, it is preaching and/or show off and it was interesting in first million times. Now whenever i hear about Andraste, i reach for my revolver. Hmm it wasn't like that but still.

 

I know there are real and "fictional" religions in nearly all games and i have no problems with them. But they're not "advertised" in your face style like Dragon Age doing.

 

Anyone agrees/disagrees or see things differently?

 

PS: Thought this post was about lore more than first game. But feel free to move as you please.

[Heimerdinger]

About Loghain.

 

As you say, he suspected Cailan may leave Anora for the Orlesian empress. He also probably knew that Eamon knew and is probably encouraging this. He hates orlesians and doesn't trust wardens because of their secretive ways. Then you know how it is, the more you go down a path the more difficult it is to turn back.

 

- he betrays the king so he had to shift the blame on the wardens.

- some wardens survive, so he sends assassins.

- Eamon wasn't at Ostagar so he had to be eliminated somehow.

- he couldn't get the nobles to fall in line, so took lands by force and started the civil war.

- he ran out of money, so he started selling slaves.

- he worked with Howe, and started to become more like him.

 

By the end there was no turning back. I think Loghain is a well written villain, not the mustache twirling evil villain but someone who's actions are somewhat understandable. For me he's right up there in the top with Saren Arterius.

[Eliastion]

Loghain suffered from villain/idiot ball in a couple places. I've seen looong discussions about him and the problem is that some of his actions can be explained as simple result of pragmatism, paranoia and understandable bad judgement and some... well. Some strain the suspension of disbelief. Some mistakes Loghain makes seem just too obvious for a supposedly intelligent man to make them. Some actions seem too extreme for a man who supposedly has some ideals.

I personally try not to think too much about those things - I like the idea of Loghain as misguided patriot and this seems to be how the writers wanted him to be. But I can't with clear conscience say that all his actions fit this properly.

It's somewhat similar to Fiona's case, really - I can make a lot of good excuses for her, but the only one that would actually explain her behavior would be "and then Alexius used time magic so that her brain never fully developed".

 

As for the Chantry - there's a lot of it, but that's not the writing problem. It's the setting. Chantry REALLY influences life of pretty much everyone. You say that it's strange that atheists talk about Chantry and Maker - but why really? You mention Morrigan. She spent most of her life on a swamp, raised by a mother who occasionally used her to help her with killing another bunch of Templars who came to kill the Witch of the Wild in the name of Maker. Now, seriously, is it so strange that Morrigan doesn't particularly like this stupid superstition (as she thinks of him) and shows it? Chantry and the cult of the Maker affects people, regardless of whether they want it or not. Why wouldn't people be talking about it? ESPECIALLY if they are - for various reasons often more tangible than being an atheist - not OK with this?

You might not like the importance of religion in this setting, but for the setting as it is? I don't really get the feeling that the amount of attention matters of faith receive is disproportionate.

[Ambivalent]

As for the Chantry - there's a lot of it, but that's not the writing problem. It's the setting. Chantry REALLY influences life of pretty much everyone. You say that it's strange that atheists talk about Chantry and Maker - but why really? You mention Morrigan. She spent most of her life on a swamp, raised by a mother who occasionally used her to help her with killing another bunch of Templars who came to kill the Witch of the Wild in the name of Maker. Now, seriously, is it so strange that Morrigan doesn't particularly like this stupid superstition (as she thinks of him) and shows it? Chantry and the cult of the Maker affects people, regardless of whether they want it or not. Why wouldn't people be talking about it? ESPECIALLY if they are - for various reasons often more tangible than being an atheist - not OK with this?

You might not like the importance of religion in this setting, but for the setting as it is? I don't really get the feeling that the amount of attention matters of faith receive is disproportionate.

 

Morrigan not liking the Chantry totally makes sense just like you said. She's basically "free to kill" for them esp in out of the Wilds so why would she like it? Heh even I, an outsider, i was anti templar in all my playthroughs. I was templar/champion myself yet i can't stand these oppressive and narrow minded guys. "Magic is evul" yeah and sword is too different *shrugs*

 

I think Bioware was trying to create something like Medieval Europe. Inventors/Renaissance(Mages) scary to some but useful/artful in most situations, Church/Conservatives(Templars and Chantry) can't realise the importance of Renaisance(magic) and while not trying to lose their power they simply branded so many of them as heretics.

 

IIRC there were Catholic and Orthodox churches and after Renaissance Protestantism started. Not mentioning at the same time and before that Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Shamanism, Paganism, Shintoism and many more were all around. 

 

Perhaps my main concern is that except a few small partitions of the game(Dwarves, Dalish Elves and Qunarii) every single NPC was talking about Maker/Andraste. Good or bad, it doesn't really matter. There is no bad advertising anyway

 

Not saying it doesn't make sense, Ferelden can be 90% Andrastenian(?) but i have religious relatives too. Heck both of my grandparents are pilgrims and according to their religion(Islam) it is really a highly regarded status between people. But they don't talk about god, prophet, this and that all day.