66 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I never really thought about it before even though I knew it based on the lore, but... I only just now realized how utterly scary blights are. They screw up the land so badly that the damage is still COMPLETELY OBVIOUS AND VISIBLE OVER A THOUSAND FREAKING YEARS LATER! Holy crap that is bad. I don't think there's any modern day weaponry, including nukes, that can leave damage on that scale that takes several thousand years to to heal (if it ever does). Imagine if in our world there were section of the planet today where the land is as screwed up as that area and the Anderfels are, from a disaster that occurred in the BC era, with the land still black and sickened and dead looking over 2000 years later in our modern world? Terrifying.

 

Yes. This is why darkspawn are utterly unlike any other of those fantasy races that we see. People use the Awakened as a paralle to the get but it doesn't work, because darkspawn are immortal rape abominations whose existence prevents every other races' existence. Creepy stuff. 

[KaiserShep]

This is why I always kill the Messenger and don't ally with the Architect. All darkspawn are cancer that must be purged down to the very last grub.

[andy6915]

This is why I always kill the Messenger and don't ally with the Architect. All darkspawn are cancer that must be purged down to the very last grub.

 

Exactly. Even a nice darkspawn is still a plague bearer that will disease anyone near them, which even the epilogue confirms in saying that people were still strangely dying of blight in the years after you let the messenger go free.

[Bowie Hawkins]

That orphanage totally attacked my Hawke first.

[Kakistos_]

Wow. Never really thought of it that way before. From this point of veiw my Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor are just as bad as the people they're trying to stop. Me and Anders tho: Kindred Spirits. Bandits are just hungry and Sylvans were kinda just minding their own business before we disturbed them. The starving family of the dead bandits and homeless birds and squirrles are just as much collateral damage as the people surrounding the Chantry. And lets be real: Elthina had it coming.

[Wintersbreath]

So you think personalizing it makes it more just? Were the elven qunari converts who had their sister raped and killed that guardsman illegally an act of justice or terrorism? Would you punish those elves? It was personal for them too. The Qunari had been repeatedly provoked, so have the mages, by Kirkwall's corrupt? Do they not deserve satisfaction in the conquering of all Kirkwall and inflicting cruelty on their oppressors? But Hawke stood in the way of that and killed many who had personal grievances in defense of Kirkwall. "Justice" - eye for an eye notion or blood payed with blood- is a luxury of the victors, and most of the time I've seen it only as a means of vengeance and resentment from the weak to inflict on those who took initiative rather than suffer in silence- it does not fix problems, but rather inflict suffering and cruelty to make people feel better. It's a childish notion of justice. No, personalizing it does not make it more "just", and in my opinion, I think it absurd people think they are entitled to this childish nonsensical notion of justice.

 

Of course what Anders did was horrific, but it was meant to change the world, and his reasoning was there was no other way to do that peacefully. After seeing the Chantry and Seekers turn a blind eye to the abuses, I find it hard to believe peaceful methods could have changed the world or shook it out of it's apathy. To claim any conventional self-righteous stance on it seems a delusion.

 

I'm losing my patience now because that "childish nonsensical notion of justice" is all you, not me. Really, read what I wrote. I was personalizing it for you, because you don't seem to understand that Anders' victims deserve justice. Did I say what justice should look like? Did I say you should knife Anders? Did my Hawke kill Anders? No, no, and no. All I'm saying is that Anders should not walk free like Varric said in DAI and that he should answer for his crimes. But all you seem to be arguing is for Anders to walk scot-free because judging him in any way is only "delusional self-righteousness." Are you?

[Sports72Xtrm]

I'm losing my patience now because that "childish nonsensical notion of justice" is all you, not me. Really, read what I wrote. All I'm saying is that Anders cannot walk free. Did I say you should knife Anders? No! I'm arguing against that! Read the OP!

And I'm arguing you can let Anders walk free- in fact by letting him live you are doing just that, I've always thought I was making that clear. In my opinion, I do so with out regret because I don't see him as a monster, you may or may not see him as one and feel you need to destroy him to mollify that insecurity. Obviously we have different moral values and as wynne says, "opinions different than your own are always threatening." I can see that you are being defensive and this talk may be misconstrued as hostile so I will bow out.
 

[Wintersbreath]

And I'm arguing you can let Anders walk free- in fact by letting him live you are doing just that, I've always thought I was making that clear. In my opinion, I do so with out regret because I don't see him as a monster, you may or may not see him as one and feel you need to destroy him to mollify that insecurity. Obviously we have different moral values and as wynne says, "opinions different than your own are always threatening." I can see that you are being defensive and this talk may be misconstrued as hostile so I will bow out.
 

 

Please read my response again. I have edited it while you replied. I am not being defensive. I'm trying to prevent you from putting words into my mouth, like when you implied I feel threatened by your opinion.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I'm losing my patience now because that "childish nonsensical notion of justice" is all you, not me. Really, read what I wrote. I was personalizing it for you, because you don't seem to understand that Anders' victims deserve justice. Did I say what justice should look like? Did I say you should knife Anders? Did my Hawke kill Anders? No, no, and no. All I'm saying is that Anders should not walk free like Varric said in DAI and that he should answer for his crimes. But all you seem to be arguing is for Anders to walk scot-free because judging him in any way is only "delusional self-righteousness." Are you?

This is a complicated answer. As you say, there are two types of punishment, the harsh definitive kind- death penalty or roting in jail; or the rehabilitating kind. I've already said I don't think the former accomplishes anything and the latter requires that the rehabilitated person be sincere and repentant in what he did. He already offers Hawke his life as penance so he does mourn the death of those he sacrificed but I doubt he regrets it as he sees it the only way. Then there is the matter that it's up to you or Hawke to enforce the rehabilitation in which it impossible as it's up to Anders to rehabilitate himself- that is atone for his murders. It is beyond regular means unless one is a god or mind wipe Anders to be a drone to your will to repent. So yes, I am arguing that the only recourse is to let Anders walk scot-free because judging him is only delusional self-righteousness and it's beyond your means to actually judge him unless you kill him. And as Varric tells Cole in his personal quest, killing won't make the pain go away. As I see it, if you kill him then it's done. If you let him live, you believe he won't be a monster and will live the rest of his life "good". It may not be a life of pacifisim, but of a way something anders and justice can die with out regrets and either you come to terms with that and agree with it or you've deluded yourself and let a monster roam free. Death will come eventually, whether it be by living as a fugitive, old age, or as a grey warden. But if you choose rehabilitation, he will be "free".

[TK514]

If I worried about body counts in video games, there are precious few I would be able to play, and that would likely extend to most other forms of media entertainment.

So I don't worry about it.

[Wintersbreath]

This is a complicated answer. As you say, there are two types of punishment, the harsh definitive kind- death penalty or roting in jail; or the rehabilitating kind. I've already said I don't think the former accomplishes anything and the latter requires that the rehabilitated person be sincere and repentant in what he did. He already offers Hawke his life as penance so he does mourn the death of those he sacrificed but I doubt he regrets it as he sees it the only way. Then there is the matter that it's up to you or Hawke to enforce the rehabilitation in which it impossible as it's up to Anders to rehabilitate himself. It is beyond regular means unless one is a god or mind wipe Anders to be a drone to your will to repent. So yes, I am arguing that the only recourse is to let Anders walk scot-free because judging him is only delusional self-righteousness and it's beyond your means to actually judge him unless you kill him. And as Varric tells Cole in his personal quest, killing won't make the pain go away. As I see it, if you kill him then it's done. If you let him live, you believe he won't be a monster and will live the rest of his life "good". It may not be a life of pacifisim, but of a way something anders and justice can die with out regrets and either you come to terms with that and agree with it or you've deluded yourself and let a monster roam free. Death will come eventually, whether it be by living as a fugitive or as a grey warden. But if you choose rehabilitation, he will be "free".

 

Clearly, we are going to have to agree to disagree because Anders certainly cannot walk scot-free. I don't agree with your analysis or your dichotomy of one's mindset if one didn't kill Anders then ("either believe Anders isn't a monster or you let a monster roam free"). I also do not believe judging Anders is an act of delusional self-righteousness nor that it is beyond our means to judge him without killing him then and there but I don't want to get into it now, "it" being the appropriate sentence for an out-of-control spirit-man terrorist-advocate, if the death penalty is just or not in some cases, etc. Just because we might not be able to give him the most appropriate sentence doesn't mean he can go unpunished. I absolutely cannot wrap my mind around that and since that's your stance, I don't want to discuss it any further.

 

I chose to let him live. And I chose to not let him walk scot-free. Like you said, since Anders is not longer capable of fully controlling himself, if he goes free, truly so, he will pose as much danger to others as he would to himself (probably, or maybe he'd eventually kill himself in an act of delusional self-righteousness). That is one of the reasons I am against him being free. The second reason is to try to rehabilitate him. We're talking about fiction here. The Rite of Tranquility was said, if I remember correctly, to be irreversible. Then look what happened? And the third, is of course for him to answer his crimes, one way or another, in the vein of the Recruiting Inquisitor, or making Loghain do the Dark Ritual and/or the Ultimate Sacrifice - something productive. One doesn't need to regret what one did to recognize it was a horrible deed that needed to be answered for. For example, over the centuries, what the Grey Wardens did or could have done to end a Blight.

 

Anyway, that's all I have to say.

[Sah291]

Yeah, it's a good question...and one I think the narrative implies we are supposed to ask. Varric has banter with Anders after he nearly kills the mage girl lampshading this. Something about how he has killed "x" amount of people so far, but this one he feels bad about...and maybe that's the problem. Then there's Isabella's banter about justice and how killing people is like a bar brawl with people keep getting drawn in, until they forget why they were fighting in the first place.

Anyways, for my canon Hawke, I start him off working for Meeran, so basically being ok with killing people for coin, and for survival, etc. And then play Hawke's character arc out as becoming more merciful by the end, sparing Anders and defending the mages. I like the irony of that ending--the compassionate healer who does something violent, and the violent ex mercenary who does something merciful. Oh and the chaste chantry brother who does a complete 180 right on the spot, threatening to attack the city.

[Dean_the_Young]

If I worried about body counts in video games, there are precious few I would be able to play, and that would likely extend to most other forms of media entertainment.

So I don't worry about it.

 

I don't either, but one of my funnest RPG experiences was a pacifist-by-necessity playthrough in Fallout: New Vegas.

 

I gave myself an endurance of 1- and the weakest of enemies could kill me in seconds. I think I killed maybe 50 enemies the entire game, almost all of them feral ghouls.

[TK514]

I don't either, but one of my funnest RPG experiences was a pacifist-by-necessity playthrough in Fallout: New Vegas.
 
I gave myself an endurance of 1- and the weakest of enemies could kill me in seconds. I think I killed maybe 50 enemies the entire game, almost all of them feral ghouls.

Sounds like quite the challenge.

[In Exile]

I don't either, but one of my funnest RPG experiences was a pacifist-by-necessity playthrough in Fallout: New Vegas.

 

I gave myself an endurance of 1- and the weakest of enemies could kill me in seconds. I think I killed maybe 50 enemies the entire game, almost all of them feral ghouls.

 

Interestingly, you managed to create an RPG protagonist that has the durabilityh of an actual person, versus the demi-gods that populate RPGs and lead to such wonky moral reasoning that is so common in games. 

[Eelectrica]

Disturbed by Hawkes body count? Nope. Wasn't high enough. Sebastian was somehow left alive after all. He coulda made himself useful and got Anders more dynamite to blow up another chantry or two instead of crying in the corner about it!

[Char]

I'm not disturbed at all.
Snarky Fem!Hawke was pretty practical about it all; in most circumstances it was her life or theirs, and an apostate refugee doesn't start out with too many chances to be magnanimous. When it came to Anders I've always played it through as a mercy killing- my Hawke's can't reconcile the man he was with the vengeful abomination he has become, and thinks that the healer with the sense of humour would never have wanted this. (Which I supplement with my knowledge of Anders in DA:A).
From a less emotional standpoint someone also needs to pay for blowing up the city she's spent the best part of a decade attempting to keep a lid on (my Hawkes continually refuse to pick sides until the game leaves no choice) and now hundreds of people are going to die just when she thought she was finally getting somewhere with Meredith and Orsino.