52 réponses à ce sujet

[OutlawJT]

You don't. Upgraded War-horn does damage, and while Rampage is up, will damage & hit, thus heal per enemy within its 8m range. Usually to full health. Devour is also useful early on by-passing maul's attack speed. Mighty blow, while slow, can also be used for an AoE rampage heal.

 

 

In fairness, I didn't check Rampage heal on-hit usage with other abilities. I did use devour in concert with it but since devour restores Health already I didn't notice the difference. I just figured since it didn't work with Dragon Rage it didn't work with abilities. My mistake. When I promote my Reaver I will retool his abilities and test it again. I suppose I should try the maul on for size with my whirlwind Katari. I use basic attack too often on my Avvar to make a maul viable.

 

I still think the attack speed can be dangerous on any character, though. Even with the superb stamina amulet the Avvar and Katari still run out of stamina every once in a while. The Reaver doesn't thanks to Dragon Rage, but the other two can with out racking up lots of AoE hits to fuel stamina generation.

[Jackyl]

You run out of stamina on the Katari with superb stamina amulet?

Wow

[Menthus]

Just want to give a shout out to dagger Lady Jocasta's Revenge. Fully upgraded it has ~27% crit damage and 1% heal per hit. A perfect match to dragon dagger for an alchemist due to its synergy with elemental mines for self healing and self revival.  

[Yumi]

Tier 3 upgrades are better mostly in my opinion

Staves: I peer mind chill and pyre and void staff.
Bows: the level 22 blue 1% heal on hit
1H: caliban or blue mace that explodes on kill
Shields: emperor shield
2H: haven't gotten dragons, but the mail looks best.
Daggers: Red Birth or Dragon paired with Jocasta for alchemist, and 10% hidden blades dagger for assassin.

My staffs clock in at around 19% heal on kill with upgrades.

My bow clocks in at 41% Crit or 59% Crit damage depending on which is use.

In short, tier 3 upgrades usually win out. Once nightmare mode releases, everyone is gonna want tier 3s over dragon stuff especially for staffs and bows. HoK is gonna become vital in nightmare mode. As will high Crit chance for party procs. Honestly, the versatility of tier 3 upgrades is what I find most useful.

[apocalypse_owl]

You either need to be an expert, and do the math work or admit ignorance and failure to judge correctly.

 

Looooooooooooooool

[konfeta]

It would not. You forget all the damage multipliers are affected by base damage, whereas specialty weapons may only have their individual damage multipliers affect a lower base damage.

I am not seeing it? Mindchill staff would eventually win if it could have 18 * 3 crit damage from its attachments.

 

66 * (1.4 + .4 + .1 + .15 + .54) = 170

81 * (1.4 + .4 + .1) = 153

 

There is nothing in the damage formula you gave that contradicts that eventual behavior. Enough promotions will make crit damage surpass the base damage gap and will make Dragon's % attack superiority washed out. Granted, again, that's a lot of promotions.

 

Only thing I can think off that would alter this is the default flanking bonus, if its high enough and you can reliably flank as a mage enough to make it matter since its additive with crit damage ok it's +.25, so it doesn't swing it decisively. The "damage_multiplier" bonus only simulates super high willpower promotions, so it only helps Mindchill in this comparison. Moot point overall, of course, since staves obviously do not have a that many crit damage bonuses available on the upgrades.

 

final_damage = (base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration))
* (ability_multiplier)
* (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
* (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
* (1 - magic_resistance)

 

Though, as far as physical weapons go, right, forgot that armor penalty subtracts a flat value from base damage before all other damage multipliers. Yeah, that pretty much makes flat damage absolute king unless you somehow have 100% armor penetration up at all times against all targets.

[yarpenthemad21]

Because of how formula of damage works it should be calculated based on personal stats which weapon (or even upgrade for it) is better.

For someone who has +attack% around 50% dragon bow and it's 41% is a huge difference in damage. 

crit damage and how it affects damage in overall depends on crit chance. If we take basic formula for "crit multiplier" it's

 

(crit chance)*(1+crit damage bonus), so for example for (.30)*(1+0.4) for basic crit without crit damage bonus and with crit chance 30%

 

so in general we have 3 values

multiplier for base damage is there is a difference

multiplier for crit damage

multiplier for attack

 

For my stats, quite average I've calculated it and dragon weapons wins by quite big margin. Still shield is an exception mostly because of lack of masterwork effect.

As for the bows, everybody who say that cruel redemtion (so this 22 rare) is better than bow of dragon should really calculate it. 81% crit damage bonus isn't even close to huge attack bonus, heal on kill (so ability to use different ring) and huge base damage difference.

[kmeeg]

As for the bows, everybody who say that cruel redemtion (so this 22 rare) is better than bow of dragon should really calculate it. 81% crit damage bonus isn't even close to huge attack bonus, heal on kill (so ability to use different ring) and huge base damage difference.

 

Attack bonus do not affect lolshot much. That's why some prefer cruel redemption.

[Spectr61]

Looooooooooooooool

Experts sharing expansive knowledge is great.

Experts sharing expansive knowledge while being a dIck about it is not.

[Drasca]

I am not seeing it?

 

The "damage_multiplier" bonus only simulates super high willpower promotions, so it only helps Mindchill in this comparison. Moot point overall, of course, since staves obviously do not have a that many crit damage bonuses available on the upgrades.

 

final_damage = (base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration))
* (ability_multiplier)
* (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
* (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
* (1 - magic_resistance)

 

You're forgetting how passives, ability damage, and gear plays into the damage formula.

 

You're absolutely wrong about what willpower does. It adds to the attack_bonus, commonly known as +attack% at a rate of (willpower - 10) * ( 0.5 attack power %) which is also found on gear and total +attack % needs to be summed up. There is no type_bonus in multiplayer (SP only), and the damage multiplier is a simplified catch-all that varies between passives that are around, gear, and the particular skill.

 

For example, Longshot used to have an damage multiplier of 800%. Even people with 210 willpower would only have an additional 100% attack_bonus. Ability multiplier is usually the damage ring associated.

 

 

Attack bonus do not affect lolshot much. That's why some prefer cruel redemption.

 

However, base damage affects everything, and the more multipliers involved, the more damage favors higher base.

 

 

In fairness, I didn't check Rampage heal on-hit usage with other abilities.

 

I use basic attack too often on my Avvar to make a maul viable.

 

Try them. They're fun. While you're at it, try this Avvar build and playstyle:

 

 

Note this video is pre-Avvar buff. Post buff, it is even more powerful.

 

http://forum.bioware...rite-mp-builds/

 

http://forum.bioware...oe-devastation/

 

Basically, you don't use basic attack unless you're low on stamina, and use Elemental Korth's Might at every opportunity.

[jerky]

I don't think I ever auto attack with avvar.

Mauls are awesome once you master attack canceling too, I almost never use great sword or Axe anymore. Let the legionnaire smash pots for you, you'll be too busy smashing skulls.

[Drasca]

Though, as far as physical weapons go, right, forgot that armor penalty subtracts a flat value from base damage before all other damage multipliers. Yeah, that pretty much makes flat damage absolute king unless you somehow have 100% armor penetration up at all times against all targets.

 

The enemy armor is almost irrelevant with the current set of end game base weapons vs relatively low enemy armor on Perilous difficulty, even though you can have a lot of armor penetration.

 

Base damage is king almost all the time though. I did mention there are special situations where it is not.

 

Btw, I've done quick tests with damage upgraded Mindchill vs Dragon staff with Power Chord (with high cunning, willpower, critial damage bonus rings, dex amulet, at level 18 virtu with full damage spec). The damage is comparable with mindchill sometimes taking the lead (but mostly other factors changing damage), but the lack of heal on kill on mindchill (when speccing for damage) means Dragon Staff is favored, as Mindchill would lose 18% critical damage bonus (staff upgrade) or 20% (ring) in favor of heal on kill (upgrade or ring).

 

I've also done cruel redemption vs dragon bow tests. Guess what I prefer for actual damage most of the time.

[yarpenthemad21]

Attack bonus do not affect lolshot much. That's why some prefer cruel redemption.

it's sub optimal choice.

firstly you won't be using only longshot,

second base damage difference is huge and this works on everything, this makes difference on longshot not that high. non crit hit will be just at lol damage.

archer also has skills like explosive shot and leaping shot which should be used often. on them cruel redemtion damage is not even on the same planet really.

 

For staves is as drasca said. Mindchill has highest dps potential but it's either damage similar to dragon staff or heal on kill. There is also no reason to even use cold as damage source because of general lower dps of cold.

[Drasca]

I've done a few quick runs with Siege's End vs Maul of the Dragon too. Both are quite good, and SE lives up to its name as an End game weapon, but Maul's still superior for not taking berserk damage. The damage is more or less comparable for abilties (this will vary greatly based on your actual crit chance for example)

 

SE does not signifigantly decrease the number of attacks required to finish off an enemy when abilities are taken into account, but as SE is a GA, you can get more basic attacks in than the maul for basic damage and clear a path hits. So end result, take 50% more damage, get more stamina, SE does the same neighborhood of damage as Dragon Maul.

 

That said, the Dragon maul is overall easier to obtain even with the ludicrously awesome warrior chests this weekend. If you have one and no maul though, it definitely isn't a bad choice to use until you have the Maul. When you have the option of both, you can mix and match your optimized weapon loadout as you desire.

[kmeeg]

However, base damage affects everything, and the more multipliers involved, the more damage favors higher base.

 

second base damage difference is huge and this works on everything

 

Base damage is the winner! According to the calculations I just did on 'dragon bow' and 'Cruel Redemption' (w/ 81% critt D) you two are absolutely right. The Dragon Bow is better by a longshot 

 

 

Concerning lolshot:

The Dragon bow comes out in top unless you got REALLY high willpower and do critical damage all the time. But thats been pointed out before in this topic by konfeta.

[Hellsteeth30]

Wait what!!!!

Did I read it right? War-Horn can be used to heal yourself while Dragon Rage is up?

Yessiree bob.

[Drasca]

 

Wait what!!!!

Did I read it right? War-Horn can be used to heal yourself while Dragon Rage is up?

Yessiree bob.

 

Upgraded War horn does damage. +10 to Warrior exp skill

[konfeta]

and the damage multiplier is a simplified catch-all that varies between passives that are around, gear, and the particular skill.

So, does it include the special affixes like Berserker bonus, or Caliban special? Or are those applied multiplicatively to the whole thing?

[Laforgus]

Dragon has 41% attack, Mindchill has 16% attack and 15% crit damage. 

Da fuq man,Numbers man, NUMBERS!

 

Like it or not, everyone will get to 100% crit chance so raw damage will be useless.

 

 

Thats Staff Vs Staff, no rings.

 

The real test are made in the field, not in the planification Board. and not is not a lot of Promotion, each promotion gives 1 Cunning which is 0.5%, so to get 100% you need less than 200 promotions.

 

And for those who are playing since november like me is nothing, we got more than 100 already. The rest will play normally and eventually with get there.

[konfeta]

Is that screenshot accounting for elemental resists/weaknesses of the two different enemies? Based on my calculation with the linked damage formula, it should be a lot harder for the Mindchill staff to beat the Dragon staff. Like, I doubt you have anywhere near enough % attack bonus to do so. Or that formula is wrong, or I screwed up the calculation, or armor affects elemental attacks.

 

That said, I am still not exactly sure which part of the formula Drasca is referring to when he says Dragon Staff's crits will be higher in damage than a hypothetical all crit damage upgrade Mindchill. Perhaps if he could give a quick example?

 

Let's say +20% attack from promotions/passives:

 

Mindchill:           66 * (1.4 + .54 + .15 + .2 + .2 + .1) * 1.36 = 232

Dragon Staff:    81 * (1.4 + .2 + .2 + .1) * 1.61 = 247

 

Let's say +100% attack from promotions/passives:

 

Mindchill:           66 * (1.4 + .54 + .15 + .2 + .2 + .1) * 2.16 = 369.23

Dragon Staff:    81 * (1.4 + .2 + .2 + .1) * 2.41 = 370.9

 

Let's say +200% attack from promotions/passives:

 

Mindchill:           66 * (1.4 + .54 + .15 + .2 + .2 + .1) * 3.16 = 540

Dragon Staff:    81 * (1.4 + .2 + .2 + .1) * 3.41 = 525

 

I am observing a trend where Mindchill eventually wins. This quote makes no sense to me:

 

 

 

You're absolutely wrong about what willpower does. It adds to the attack_bonus, commonly known as +attack% at a rate of (willpower - 10) * ( 0.5 attack power %) which is also found on gear and total +attack % needs to be summed up. There is no type_bonus in multiplayer (SP only), and the damage multiplier is a simplified catch-all that varies between passives that are around, gear, and the particular skill.

That's exactly how I use it. And if it is summed up with all the other % bonuses, it only means Mindchill reaches the breakpoint where it beats Dragon Staff at lower promotions. If all other bonuses are fully multiplicative to the whole formula, then they are irrelevant as they affect both staves evenly.

[Drasca]

The real test are made in the field, not in the planification Board. and not is not a lot of Promotion, each promotion gives 1 Cunning which is 0.5%, so to get 100% you need less than 200 promotions.

 

Field tests and Less than are the true statements, but the implication is of needing anywhere near 200 cunning upgrades is not. There's plenty of passives and weapon upgrades, and accessories that can add to critical chance.

 

The screenshot implication here that every promotion gives one cunning is also wrong, because you're clearly showing a mage, which promotes to willpower, not cunning. That adds 0.5% attack power, which most people don't quite understand how it really works outside basic attacks because the damage formula is complicated when it comes to abilities. The attack power is multiplied with the stated weapon damage % on ability descriptors, but not the bonus damage. i.e. power chord gets 150% weapon damage that's affected by additional attack power, but the +200% bonus damage at 4m and +400% bonus damage at 2m is not multiplied with attack power (but does multiply with base damage).

 

Basic-attacks are not the primary source of damage (unless you're a keeper maybe), and both gear and abilities used do matter. They both add complexity and work to actual tests, and your screenshot is an oversimplification.

 

So what happens to the damage for fire mine, different staff upgrades, fire wall, fire storm, immolate, detonations, etc etc etc. .

 

As you can see, calculating damage can get complicated as you add passives, damage bonuses (that are calculated seperately from attack power), determining whether it is an ability multiplier or a damage multiplier, and the fact that no one has the exact same setup of gear + promotions. 

 

In short, it is a lot of work. If you want to do the work, great, but if it is incomplete like you've demonstrated here, you'll get called out on it. That's not a bad thing, but  you'll need to show your work.

[Drasca]

If all other bonuses are fully multiplicative to the whole formula,

 

They aren't. That's what you don't get, thus crashing your whole model, and causing it to fall apart. You need to build again from scratch.

[TheThirdRace]

Da fuq man,Numbers man, NUMBERS!
 
Like it or not, everyone will get to 100% crit chance so raw damage will be useless.
 

 
Thats Staff Vs Staff, no rings.
 
The real test are made in the field, not in the planification Board. and not is not a lot of Promotion, each promotion gives 1 Cunning which is 0.5%, so to get 100% you need less than 200 promotions.
 
And for those who are playing since november like me is nothing, we got more than 100 already. The rest will play normally and eventually with get there.

Careful, different enemies have different resistances.

I don't doubt the numbers, but you don't test in the same conditions either (a Shade Demon vs a Venatori Foot Soldier). It's like statistics, you can make the numbers say about anything, it's all about how you present your data.

And before anyone say something bad, I know Laforgus didn't do that on purpose. It's just a small mistake, happens to everyone

[Drasca]

other bonuses are fully multiplicative to the whole formula, then they are irrelevant as they affect both staves evenly.

 

The bonuses are not fully multiplicative and damage for abilities are composite between +attack power and bonus damage. They each multiply seperately and are summed together. Hence this part of the formula:

 

* (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)

 

Damage multiplier is a catch all for all the different 'bonuses' that are summed together. This may be from passives or from gear, but that gear also may be " * (ability_multiplier) " which is on a different section of the formula.

 

There is also "* (ability_multiplier)", it is difficult to determine which damage bonuses are which, and where they go on the formula (into damage_multiplier, or * (ability_multiplier). While I think " * (ability_multiplier) " is the rings, more testing is needed that I don't have time for. It is time consuming work to test each component of the formula, and all the passives available, and where they are in the formula.

 

Single player is much easier to test, but still time consuming. Multiplayer has its own balance and unique set of abilities not available to single player, which makes it even more time consuming to test.

 

In short, if you want to get serious and take the time to actually test what's going on, I can help with guiding the test platform, but I am not willing to do the tests all myself.

[Drasca]

Careful, different enemies have different resistances.

I don't doubt the numbers, but you don't test in the same conditions either (a Shade Demon vs a Venatori Foot Soldier). It's like statistics, you can make the numbers say about anything, it's all about how you present your data.

And before anyone say something bad, I know Laforgus didn't do that on purpose. It's just a small mistake, happens to everyone

 

This is good practice to warn about. That said, both these units do not have resistences to the elements in mind. However it is very clear the testing platform is not thoroughly controlled, and the evidence is not as useful.