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[teh DRUMPf!!]

You realize it isn't just Templar supporters who thinks what Fiona did is stupid

 

That guy is so sensitive about mage-related topics. ^^ You have to be Mary Poppins for him not to freak out.

[Master Warder Z_]

That guy is so sensitive about mage-related topics. ^^ You have to be Mary Poppins for him not to freak out.

But she mixed sugar with the Codeine...

[Cobra's_back]

 Fiona doesn't think things out.

 

I feel sorry for the mages that were sold into slavery or killed because of her.

[CronoDragoon]

I should note that I actually feel sorry for the templars as well. I feel sorry for both sides. I happen to favor the mages in my canon world state, though, because I just find their story and perspective more interesting.

I find the Templar side more interesting. Redeeming an order that's been portrayed as dicks for going on two games now was pretty satisfying.

[In Exile]

The Elder One was leading the army that Fiona was still an important figure in. She was the boss fight after all. How could she not have noticed him?

 

That's different from Corypheus walking up and giving her the sales pitch. She's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I don't think it will take Calpernia saying much to get her to attack you. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Too bad you can't get both sides to work with you.

I'm not a fan of "One or the other" choices, especially when it makes everyone involved incompetent for that choice to exist./ 

[Sifr]

That's different from Corypheus walking up and giving her the sales pitch. She's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I don't think it will take Calpernia saying much to get her to attack you. 

 

Yeah, because after her previous extremely bad encounter with the Architect, seeing a dude who looks just like him leading the army to attack Haven, backed by a dragon that looks like an Archdemon, wouldn't have set of any alarm bells? He's not exactly trying to be conspicuous?

[Steelcan]

Yeah, because after her previous extremely bad encounter with the Architect, seeing a dude who looks just like him leading the army to attack Haven, backed by a dragon that looks like an Archdemon, wouldn't have set of any alarm bells? He's not exactly trying to be conspicuous?

I imagine by that point she is in too deep to switch courses even if she wanted to, Corypheus could have wiped out her mages fairly easily

[Sifr]

I imagine by that point she is in too deep to switch courses even if she wanted to, Corypheus could have wiped out her mages fairly easily

 

But if she's that impulsive and has a lack of forethought as people so often accuse her, then wouldn't she have turned on him? It'd have been far more in-character for Fiona to die in a futile act of defiance while attempting to kill Corypheus, rather than stay the course?

 

Why attack the Inquisition who have done nothing to her whatsoever and not the Darkspawn Magister who killed all those who refused to follow him and turned the rest into slaves? She'd have far more beef with Corypheus and reason to attack him, rather than us?

[Deztyn]

She made the agreement that turned them into slaves and the Inquisition has just allied with the people she believes are trying to wipe them out. Calpernia is likely offering a similar deal to Alexius, join us and your people will be protected.

I actually find her actions there less problematic than her agreeing with Alexius in the first place.

[Drasanil]

But if she's that impulsive and has a lack of forethought as people so often accuse her, then wouldn't she have turned on him? It'd have been far more in-character for Fiona to die in a futile act of defiance while attempting to kill Corypheus, rather than stay the course?

 

Because she's a coward, witness Alexius changing the deal on her with barely a whimper on her part. 

[myahele]

It's too bad you can't judge her. Or get her killed if you choose response wrong like the Templar leader (whatever his name was).

 

So I can arrest somebody who drowned a town 10 years ago or a tevinter smuggler, but I can't do anything about a rebel leader who allied with the Venatori, sold her charges into slavery, drove off some of the villagers and Arl of Redcliff, etc?

[Sifr]

She made the agreement that turned them into slaves and the Inquisition has just allied with the people she believes are trying to wipe them out. Calpernia is likely offering a similar deal to Alexius, join us and your people will be protected.

I actually find her actions there less problematic than her agreeing with Alexius in the first place.

 

She made a deal to make her people citizens of the Imperium, but was forced to agree to indentured servitude for ten years in exchange. While it is admittedly a kind of slavery, Krem tells us that the publically-owned slaves have far more rights and freedoms than those who are privately owned, so likely have more protection under Tevinter law.

 

As a former slave herself, do you really think Fiona would agree to even that lesser form of enslavement lightly? We know the terms of the deal were that no-one would be forced into the military and that Alexius then screwed her over on this point, which she objected to?

 

Because she's a coward, witness Alexius changing the deal on her with barely a whimper on her part. 

 

She does protest it quite forcefully, but what can she do exactly? Alexius the Venatori control Redcliffe and the rebellion, she's been deposed from power and as she later comments to the Inquisitor in Skyhold, Venatori agents were embedding themselves within the Rebellion so it was very hard to know who was actually on her side and who wasn't?

 

Her situation was the same as Lando in TESB. Under duress and with little options, he made a deal to free his people permanently from the Empire in exchange for Han, only to have Vader likewise screw him by altering the terms of the deal in his favour? And despite protesting, there was not anything he could do about it because it was clear Stormtroopers controlled Cloud City?

[Drasanil]

She does protest it quite forcefully, but what can she do exactly? Alexius the Venatori control Redcliffe and the rebellion, she's been deposed from power and as she later comments to the Inquisitor in Skyhold, Venatori agents were embedding themselves within the Rebellion so it was very hard to know who was actually on her side and who wasn't?

 

Her situation was the same as Lando in TESB. Under duress and with little options, he made a deal to free his people permanently from the Empire in exchange for Han, only to have Vader likewise screw him by altering the terms of the deal in his favour? And despite protesting, there was not anything he could do about it because it was clear Stormtroopers controlled Cloud City?

 

She has the Inquisitor Herald of Andraste right in front of her, Inquisition troops right out the gate, and easily attainable hostages in the form of both Alexius and his son. There's plenty she could do.

[raging_monkey]

Ah lando the hero of the alliance

[SgtSteel91]

She has the Inquisitor Herald of Andraste right in front of her, Inquisition troops right out the gate, and easily attainable hostages in the form of both Alexius and his son. There's plenty she could do.

 

She has an agent of an organization who takes its name from an Order who's remembered as Zealot Andrastian Mage-Hunters (and who later became her oppressors that have been trying to kill her people) and did not see for herself that the Inquisition may be different from the Chantry (Alexius saw to that). You certainly get no options to tell her you're different or offer her a better deal.

[thats1evildude]

I find Fiona accepts the situation rather meekly, considering she was an actual slave to a sadistic Orlesian noble. But I guess as long as it's mages who are oppressing your people and not those dirty templars, that makes it OK.

[Sifr]

She has the Inquisitor Herald of Andraste right in front of her, Inquisition troops right out the gate, and easily attainable hostages in the form of both Alexius and his son. There's plenty she could do.

 

Yeah, because it's so simply to nab a Tevinter Magister and his son and get them out of Redcliffe when you're in a bar at the far end of the village, with a whole lot of potential enemy agents between you and the gate, which is far up the hill and has a portcullis that can be shut at anytime, cutting off any backup from the Inquisition?

 

The only reason we were able to get him in the castle was because Leliana's people had infiltrated it in a sneak attack, killed all his guards and even then, he tries to erase us from time and nearly succeeds, forcing us to have to come back from the future before he's willing to give up and go quietly?

[Dean_the_Young]

It's too bad you can't judge her. Or get her killed if you choose response wrong like the Templar leader (whatever his name was).

 

So I can arrest somebody who drowned a town 10 years ago or a tevinter smuggler, but I can't do anything about a rebel leader who allied with the Venatori, sold her charges into slavery, drove off some of the villagers and Arl of Redcliff, etc?

 

You forgot the Tranquil Genocide that occured under her watch.

 

Everyone forgets the Tranquil Genocide.

[Drasanil]

She has an agent of an organization who takes it name from an Order who's remembered as Zealot Andrastian Mage-Hunters (and who later became her oppressors that have been trying to kill her people) and did not see for herself that the Inquisition may be different from the Chantry (Alexius saw to that). You certainly get no options to tell her you're different or offer her a better deal.

 

Doesn't prevent her from taking Alexius hostage and negotiating with the Inquisition personally. What else does she have to lose? Alexius just changed the deal on her, meaning he might easily do so again, she protests that they have children in the rebellion implying she thinks they might be sent into combat. She's clearly not happy with how things progressed and neither are a good portion of the mages. So why not cut her losses? As its going already short of mass tranquilisation things could hardly get worse. 

[Drasanil]

Yeah, because it's so simply to nab a Tevinter Magister and his son and get them out of Redcliffe when you're in a bar at the far end of the village, with a whole lot of potential enemy agents between you and the gate, which is far up the hill and has a portcullis that can be shut at anytime, cutting off any backup from the Inquisition?

 

You do understand how high value hostages work right? Fiona wouldn't even need to step out of the bar, let alone Redcliff, to make use of them being hostages. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, because it's so simply to nab a Tevinter Magister and his son and get them out of Redcliffe when you're in a bar at the far end of the village, with a whole lot of potential enemy agents between you and the gate, which is far up the hill and has a portcullis that can be shut at anytime, cutting off any backup from the Inquisition?

 

The only reason we were able to get him in the castle was because Leliana's people had infiltrated it in a sneak attack, killed all his guards and even then, he tries to erase us from time and nearly succeeds, forcing us to have to come back from the future before he's willing to give up and go quietly?

 

You realize this is less an argument of her virtue and more an argument of her ineptness, don't you?

 

If the nominal leader of the most powerful faction in the city of Redcliffe can't identify the foreign agents and gather subordinates and seize the Magister's son, and let's not kid ourselves that's all she'd really need to do to have the magister by the balls, then she is incapable of one of the primary points of leadership: getting people to do things. The Inquisitor is able to win because he or she is able to create that opportunity with their subordinate, taking the risks and makes the actions against those intimidating agents who supposedly kept Fiona from doing anything. Fiona... doesn't.

 

There's something called the Orange Cone theory of leadership. It's the metaphor of what do you when you come to an orange cone in the middle of the lane while driving?

 

Fiona fails the organe cone theory because she simply stops. Every obstacle you raise in her defense can just as well be applied to the Inquisitor and Inquisition, but the difference is that the Inquisition doesn't stop in the face of a problem and wait for someone to offer a path around: it removes the problems.

[Sifr]

You forgot the Tranquil Genocide that occured under her watch.

 

Everyone forgets the Tranquil Genocide.

 

In fairness, Cullen tells us that when the Circle's fell, most of the Templars were content to let the Tranquil just wander off and die in the gutter if got them out of their hair, so they're not exactly free from blame either?

 

You do understand how high value hostages work right? Fiona wouldn't even need to step out of the bar, let alone Redcliff, to make use of them being hostages. 

 

Hostages don't work if the enemy doesn't care if they live?

 

Corypheus certainly doesn't give two figs about Alexius, only what he can do for him? You don't think that if the other Venatori realised that Alexius was being held hostage in that bar, they'd not simply burn it down and get someone else to continue his work?

[Drasanil]

Hostages don't work if the enemy doesn't care if they live?

 

Corypheus certainly doesn't give two figs about Alexius, only what he can do for him? You don't think that if the other Venatori realised that Alexius was being held hostage in that bar, they'd not simply burn it down and get someone else to continue his work?

 

Is Corypheus there to personally issue to commands to the Venatori in Redcliff to disregard the hostages? Nope, didn't think so. Grab the son and you have the highest ranking Venatori in Recliff by the balls and Alexius does care about his son, in fact it's the only thing he cares about.

[Dean_the_Young]

In fairness, Cullen tells us that when the Circle's fell, most of the Templars were content to let the Tranquil just wander off and die in the gutter if got them out of their hair, so they're not exactly free from blame either?

 

Sifr, this may come as a surprise to you but there's are a significant difference between callous indifference and not looking out for someone who chooses to leave, and standing by as the people in your charge are systematically murdered by the dozens because you sold them (and your own people) into a murderous and slaver's power in the name of your own protection (from the foreseeable results of your own ill-planned rebellion).

 

This isn't a 'glass house and stones' equivalence. This is a the simple act of mass murder of people who were not a threat, and whose deaths did not advance the interests of the magi, and whose lives were every much a responsibility of Fiona's as the circle mages who can cast fireballs. There were her people, and afterwards she does not even mention regretting leading them to the slaughter.

 

This is not an even handed issue where the Templars are just as bad: Templar indifference is far superior to the Magi toleration of ritualistic mass murder. Calling a false equivalence 'fairness' is a perversion of the concept of the word.