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[Sifr]

You realize this is less an argument of her virtue and more an argument of her ineptness, don't you?

 

If the nominal leader of the most powerful faction in the city of Redcliffe can't identify the foreign agents and gather subordinates and seize the Magister's son, and let's not kid ourselves that's all she'd really need to do to have the magister by the balls, then she is incapable of one of the primary points of leadership: getting people to do things. The Inquisitor is able to win because he or she is able to create that opportunity with their subordinate, taking the risks and makes the actions against those intimidating agents who supposedly kept Fiona from doing anything. Fiona... doesn't.

 

Because when you have lots of people from foreign nations who are escaping Circles and flocking to the Rebellion, creating more and more people that you have to keep track of and keep organised, you have to recognise them all or have time verify their backgrounds?

 

The fault of the Rebellion isn't Fiona's management, it's simply too large for it's own good and hasn't got a proper leadership infrastructure in place to cope with the crisis that they're facing? Aside from Fiona, do we see any kind of leadership at all, any kind of secondary people in charge of running things? It doesn't seem to be anyone stepping up to help take charge of things, meaning that the Rebellion is operating like a flat filled with lazy roomates that refuse to clean up, pay the bills or do the dishes... so eventually, things start breaking down, the power goes off and the toilet clogs?

 

Does that make Fiona a bad leader, or does that just mean that we're seeing what happens to a group when it becomes too large to be managed properly and it's all left to one person to make all the decisions? Do you think that the Inquisition would have succeeded if the Inquisitor was trying to run the entire Inquisition without Josie, Cullen or Leliana managing their own area of expertise, and with nearly no money or soldiers at their disposal?

 

There's something called the Orange Cone theory of leadership. It's the metaphor of what do you when you come to an orange cone in the middle of the lane while driving?

 

Fiona fails the organe cone theory because she simply stops. Every obstacle you raise in her defense can just as well be applied to the Inquisitor and Inquisition, but the difference is that the Inquisition doesn't stop in the face of a problem and wait for someone to offer a path around: it removes the problems.

 

While the Inquisition starts out as heretics and outcasts, even from the beginning we see that people are clamouring to help them and this slowly helps build up their reputation in a postive fashion. The Mages however are feared and disliked by most, and were the first people blamed when the Conclave blew up, so how can they ever get nearly the same help and support that the Inquisition was able to acquire to help them try to change their image?

 

People want to help the Inquisition, they're like the gorram Avengers. The Mages are more like the ship of lepers that got lured into a reef in The Fog.

[Drasanil]

While the Inquisition starts out as heretics and outcasts, even from the beginning we see that people are clamouring to help them and this slowly helps build up their reputation in a postive fashion. The Mages however are feared and disliked by most, and were the first people blamed when the Conclave blew up, so how can they ever get nearly the same help and support that the Inquisition was able to acquire to help them try to change their image?

 

People want to help the Inquisition, they're like the gorram Avengers. The Mages are more like the ship of lepers that got lured into a reef in The Fog.

 

Ferelden Monarchy.

 

That Fiona pissed away the greatest boon to her cause she freely received out of pure good will and sympathy, doesn't mean she didn't receive a tremendous boon in the first place.

 

But, by all means lets keep pretending the mages were helpless victim-pariahs who everyone spurned and no one helped ever at all. 

[Sifr]

Sifr, this may come as a surprise to you but there's are a significant difference between callous indifference and not looking out for someone who chooses to leave, and standing by as the people in your charge are systematically murdered by the dozens because you sold them (and your own people) into a murderous and slaver's power in the name of your own protection (from the foreseeable results of your own ill-planned rebellion).

 

This isn't a 'glass house and stones' equivalence. This is a the simple act of mass murder of people who were not a threat, and whose deaths did not advance the interests of the magi, and whose lives were every much a responsibility of Fiona's as the circle mages who can cast fireballs. There were her people, and afterwards she does not even mention regretting leading them to the slaughter.

 

This is not an even handed issue where the Templars are just as bad: Templar indifference is far superior to the Magi toleration of ritualistic mass murder. Calling a false equivalence 'fairness' is a perversion of the concept of the word.

 

Come off it, there is no evidence that the Mages even knew what was happening to the Tranquil? Or that they supported their ritualistic mass murder?

 

While the Mages should have probably done more to help the Tranquil in their care, that's not in dispute, but why should they be lumbered with all the blame? The Mages are not the Tranquil's keepers, they worked for the Circle itself?

 

Furthermore, we're told that those left in the Circle's by the Mages were often tossed out onto the street by the Templars, because they didn't want to deal with them? Even Cassandra admits that she had wondered but never bothered to investigate, because it was a low priority?

 

It was everyone's fault because no-one cared about the Tranquil, that's all I was saying.

[Sifr]

Ferelden Monarchy.

 

That Fiona pissed away the greatest boon to her cause she freely received out of pure good will and sympathy, doesn't mean she didn't receive a tremendous boon in the first place.

 

But, by all means lets keep pretending the mages were helpless victim-pariahs who everyone spurned and no one helped ever at all. 

 

The monarchy which in practice, often answers to the Bannorn.

 

The decision to let the Mages take refuge was an extremely unpopular decision all around and it seems that while Teagan and the crown were cool with it, not many others were? Hence why Arl Wulff was trying to undercut the entire thing by helping the Venatori take the Rebellion off Ferelden's hands?

 

Which is how the Venatori came to call on Fiona in the first place, so it wasn't her initiative that brought them to Redcliffe?

[Drasanil]

While the Mages should have probably done more to help the Tranquil in their care, that's not in dispute, but why should they be lumbered with all the blame? The Mages are not the Tranquil's keepers, they worked for the Circle itself?

 

The Tranquil are still fellow mages and just as much (if not more so) "prisoners" of the circle, once the mages declared their rebellion what did they expect? So yes the tranquil are their responsibility because they dragged the tranquil into it. 

[Sifr]

The Tranquil are still fellow mages and just as much (if not more so) "prisoners" of the circle, once the mages declared their rebellion what did they expect? So yes the tranquil are their responsibility because they dragged the tranquil into it. 

 

And they could have left with the Rebellion as fellow mages, but unfortunately, the Templars sundered them from the Fade and left them practically incapable of looking after themselves... which kinda makes them their responsibility, no?

[Drasanil]

The monarchy which in practice, often answers to the Bannorn.

 

The decision to let the Mages take refuge was an extremely unpopular decision all around and it seems that while Teagan and the crown were cool with it, not many others were? Hence why Arl Wulff was trying to undercut the entire thing by helping the Venatori take the Rebellion off Ferelden's hands?

 

Which is how the Venatori came to call on Fiona in the first place, so it wasn't her initiative that brought them to Redcliffe?

 

It's the the official sanction of a state in Thedas, that that sanction was unpopular didn't not reduce the amount of aid they receive or that they received it. As for the Venatori going to Redcliff, what does it matter that it was of their own initiative and not Fiona's? Fiona still made the incredibly ill-advised decision to turn against her biggest patron and benefactor, in fact the very one that might be her own child depending on the situation. 

[Drasanil]

And they could have left with the Rebellion as fellow mages, but unfortunately, the Templars sundered them from the Fade and left them practically incapable of looking after themselves... which kinda makes them their responsibility, no?

 

Typical mage excuse, even the consequences of my own actions are always someone else's (preferably the Templars') fault.

[LOLandStuff]

May I point out how some mages killed tranquils because of what they were after the Circles rebelled? **** move there.

[Drasanil]

May I point out how some mages killed tranquils because of what they were after the Circles rebelled? **** move there.

 

Templars' fault, obviously. Social Justice Mages FTW!

[Sifr]

It's the the official sanction of a state in Thedas, that that sanction was unpopular didn't not reduce the amount of aid they receive or that they received it. As for the Venatori going to Redcliff, what does it matter that it was of their own initiative and not Fiona's? Fiona still make the incredibly ill-advised decision to turn against her biggest patron and benefactor, in fact the very one that might be her own child depending on the situation. 

 

How was it a decision that went again her benefactor, she was trying to get her people out of Redcliffe and not encroach on Ferelden's hospitality any more than they had, before they wore out their welcome?

 

It was Alexius that took over Redcliffe and kicked out Teagan, how is that her fault? Her whole goal was to get her people out of Ferelden and into Tevinter as free citizens, not have Alexius annex the town?

 

Typical mage excuse, even the consequences of my own actions are always someone else's (preferably the Templars') fault.

 

At least killing them would be true to their convictions and belief that any mage who breaks the rules is a Maleficar and should be put to death... but they've been Tranquiling people for sneezing at them for years?

 

May I point out how some mages killed tranquils because of what they were after the Circles rebelled? **** move there.

 

Not disagreeing that the Mages have been complete tools to the Tranquil, just that they shouldn't get charged with genocide when the Tranquil were nearly all wiped out because no-one was paying attention to them. The fault lies across the board with everyone?

 

Y'know, since the Tranquil worked for the Circle and Vivienne ran the Loyalists who wanted it back, couldn't she have taken them in?

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

You never see Mage supporters in his thread make trollish comments like he ones above. Shows the common attitude of the respective supporters

[Drasanil]

How was it a decision that went again her benefactor, she was trying to get her people out of Redcliffe and not encroach on Ferelden's hospitality any more than they had, before they wore out their welcome?

 

It was Alexius that took over Redcliffe and kicked out Teagan, how is that her fault? Her whole goal was to get her people out of Ferelden and into Tevinter as free citizens, not have Alexius annex the town?

 

Yes lets open the gates to one of my host country's key fortresses to foreign agents, how could that possibly be against my royal benefactor's interest? Sure lets just stand by and let said foreign agent evict my generous host from his own home instead of standing up to said foreign agent with my generous host now that I realise something shady is going on with said foreign agent. Yes of course I'll gladly sell myself and my compatriots into state owned slavery to become free citizens, its not like this person's previously shady behaviour has given me any pause for thought!

 

At least killing them would be true to their convictions and belief that any mage who breaks the rules is a Maleficar and should be put to death... but they've been Tranquiling people for sneezing at them for years?

 

Most tranquil volunteer for it because they fear or can't control their powers, tranquillity being used as a punishment was an abuse and the exception not the rule. 

 

Not disagreeing that the Mages have been complete tools to the Tranquil, just that they shouldn't get charged with genocide when the Tranquil were nearly all wiped out because no-one was paying attention to them. The fault lies across the board with everyone?

 

Of course its the nebulous everyone's fault, certainly not the fault of the people who dragged them into situation. That would be crazy.

 

Y'know, since the Tranquil worked for the Circle and Vivienne ran the Loyalists who wanted it back, couldn't she have taken them in?

 

Yes, of course, why clean up your own mess when you can wait for someone else to do it for you? 

[myahele]

Additionally, both mages and templars sold tranquil to people who wanted them. They didn't know or care what would happen to them, but the money was good. At most they thought that they'd be turned into servants.

 

Seeing that the rebellion partially happened due to issues with the Rite of Tranquility + the possible cure for it, then it's pretty hypocritical for mages to then then do that to their fellow mage

[Shadow Fox]

No, slavery is and always will be bad.

 

We were able to effect it though. Like for example if you get Celene and Briala back together the new Orlais is said to do things like drop The Game and treat elves a lot better, getting rid of or at least making less of two of Orlais' biggest issues. 

Yeah I really wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

[AresKeith]

You never see Mage supporters in his thread make trollish comments like he ones above. Shows the common attitude of the respective supporters

 

You haven't been here long enough then because yes they have, some even went worse than that same as some templar supporters 

[Deztyn]

She made a deal to make her people citizens of the Imperium, but was forced to agree to indentured servitude for ten years in exchange. While it is admittedly a kind of slavery, Krem tells us that the publically-owned slaves have far more rights and freedoms than those who are privately owned, so likely have more protection under Tevinter law.

As a former slave herself, do you really think Fiona would agree to even that lesser form of enslavement lightly? We know the terms of the deal were that no-one would be forced into the military and that Alexius then screwed her over on this point, which she objected

You know that the Alexius changed the deal argument really isn't a point in her favor. It just means that in addition to being stupid enough to abandon Ferelden's hospitality to become slaves in Tevinter it also means she was stupid enough not to get the terms of their deal in writing.

She just takes him at his word.

She has an agent of an organization who takes its name from an Order who's remembered as Zealot Andrastian Mage-Hunters (and who later became her oppressors that have been trying to kill her people) and did not see for herself that the Inquisition may be different from the Chantry (Alexius saw to that). You certainly get no options to tell her you're different or offer her a better deal.

All the more reason to ally with Cory willingly, yes?

If she thinks she's damned either way, at least she can back the side that she thinks will win.

Still think it's incredibly stupid. But less stupid than betraying Ferelden's generosity. At that point she has a legitimate belief that there's no alternative.

The fault of the Rebellion isn't Fiona's management, it's simply too large for it's own good and hasn't got a proper leadership infrastructure in place to cope with the crisis that they're facing? Aside from Fiona, do we see any kind of leadership at all, any kind of secondary people in charge of running things? It doesn't seem to be anyone stepping up to help take charge of things, meaning that the Rebellion is operating like a flat filled with lazy roomates that refuse to clean up, pay the bills or do the dishes... so eventually, things start breaking down, the power goes off and the toilet clogs?

Does that make Fiona a bad leader, or does that just mean that we're seeing what happens to a group when it becomes too large to be managed properly and it's all left to one person to make all the decisions? Do you think that the Inquisition would have succeeded if the Inquisitor was trying to run the entire Inquisition without Josie, Cullen or Leliana managing their own area of expertise, and with nearly no money or soldiers at their disposal?

Maker's Breath.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

It makes her a bad leader.

It makes her a terrible leader.

She started the Rebellion with no idea how it was going to work. As it's leader it was her responsibility to choose her own lieutenants. It was her responsibility to make sure that there was an infrastructure.

It is absolutely her fault.

While the Inquisition starts out as heretics and outcasts, even from the beginning we see that people are clamouring to help them and this slowly helps build up their reputation in a postive fashion. The Mages however are feared and disliked by most, and were the first people blamed when the Conclave blew up, so how can they ever get nearly the same help and support that the Inquisition was able to acquire to help them try to change their image?

People want to help the Inquisition, they're like the gorram Avengers. The Mages are more like the ship of lepers that got lured into a reef in The Fog.

Alistair and/or Anora wanted to help the mages. Campaigned for it in fact. Did you see how that worked out?

[LOLandStuff]

Not disagreeing that the Mages have been complete tools to the Tranquil, just that they shouldn't get charged with genocide when the Tranquil were nearly all wiped out because no-one was paying attention to them. The fault lies across the board with everyone?

 

Y'know, since the Tranquil worked for the Circle and Vivienne ran the Loyalists who wanted it back, couldn't she have taken them in?

 

The templars didn't care enough about them and let them wander off, which is much better than killing them because you find their mere existence insulting. Besides, a lot of Tranquils died killed by mages, while others because of mages allying with the Venatori.

 

The Tranquils were taken along by the mages. Vivienne might have connections and whatnot, but going on searching for them across Thedas is rather beyond her. Plus, who's to say the rebel mages would even let them go.

[Sifr]

Yes lets open the gates to one of my host country's key fortresses to foreign agents, how could that possibly be against my royal benefactor's interest? Sure lets just stand by and let said foreign agent evict my generous host from his own home instead of standing up to said foreign agent with my generous host now that I realise something shady is going on with said foreign agent. Yes of course I'll gladly sell myself and my compatriots into state owned slavery to become free citizens, its not like this person's previously shady behaviour has given me any pause for thought!

 

One again, given that the Rebellion is in the village, not the fortress, it would seem that Teagan was the one who opened the gates for them into his home, only to get himself thrown out on his ear?

 

So tell me, when you're stuck between a rock and a hard place, what exactly are your options?

 

You've just watched the only person that can help you throw out the ruler of the town that took you in, it's possibly that neither he nor the crown will believe you weren't in cahoots with Alexius, you can't leave Redcliffe in protest because the Templars outside want to kill you and even if you did tell Alexius to shove his offer, you have absolutely nowhere to go?

 

Most tranquil volunteer for it because they fear or can't control their powers, tranquillity being used as a punishment was an abuse and the exception not the rule.

 

But as Cassandra and Cullen both comment, Tranquility being forced on people was becoming increasingly prevalent as a means for Templars to crack the whip to keep control, rather than be chosen. While I'm not denying that some people do chose it, we've seen precious few who weren't forced.

 

Of course its the nebulous everyone's fault, certainly not the fault of the people who dragged them into situation. That would be crazy.

 

So what you're saying is that there have never been civilian casualities as a result of any conflict between opposing sides? What happened to the Tranquil was horrible, but both sides were responsible for them being in the crossfire?

 

Yes, of course, why clean up your own mess when you can wait for someone else to do it for you?

 

Well, considering that the primary thought in the mind of everyone in the rebellion was "Will the Templars come to kill us today or tomorrow?", it's not exactly their fault they had bigger things to worry about than the Tranquil? If the Templars hadn't declared open season on them Mages, then perhaps they could have taken care of them better?

[Master Warder Z_]

If Fiona hadn't pushed her moronic war maybe she wouldn't have been shoved into that position regardless.

If we are nebulous what if scenarios of fault that should be the primary.

[Shadow Fox]

*sigh* Can a mod please kill this thread before it inevitably turns into a flamewar?

[Sifr]

You know that the Alexius changed the deal argument really isn't a point in her favor. It just means that in addition to being stupid enough to abandon Ferelden's hospitality to become slaves in Tevinter it also means she was stupid enough not to get the terms of their deal in writing.

She just takes him at his word.

 

Ferelden already wasn't safe, the Templars were apparently threatening to attack, Alexius ousting Teagan would hack off the crown against them, coupled with the Mages being one of the prime suspects for the Conclave bombing in many people's eyes... they needed to get out of dodge quickly?

 

 

 

Maker's Breath.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

It makes her a bad leader.

It makes her a terrible leader.

She started the Rebellion with no idea how it was going to work. As it's leader it was her responsibility to choose her own lieutenants. It was her responsibility to make sure that there was an infrastructure.

It is absolutely her fault.

 

Do you have any idea how many rebellions and uprising, even with good leadership and infrastructure backing them, ultimately fail because of the simplest things going wrong to ruin everything? We hear about a lot of the First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters being killed when various Circles fell, doubtless a lot of the people that Fiona probably hoped would pick up some of the slack?

 

That doesn't make her a bad leader, that just makes her a leader with some extremely bad luck.

[Sifr]

*sigh* Can a mod please kill this thread before it inevitably turns into a flamewar?

 

Ditto... or someone just twitter Weekes or Gaider to get a blighted answer to what Fiona's motivations were?

 

Don't mind what the answer is, anything to end the bickering?

[TK514]

Well, considering that the primary thought in the mind of everyone in the rebellion was "Will the Templars come to kill us today or tomorrow?", it's not exactly their fault they had bigger things to worry about than the Tranquil? If the Templars hadn't declared open season on them Mages, then perhaps they could have taken care of them better?

 

The Tranquil should have been considered part of 'us' by the Mage Rebellion.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Tranquil should have been considered part of 'us' by the Mage Rebellion.

Yet they aren't.