811 réponses à ce sujet

[Eggpop]

That herbalist lady in Redcliffe tells us that she ran out of supplies treating people in the village who were injured from the attacks by the templars. And the main force of the templars could attack the village at any time, while the ferelden army is obviously not in the area to defend the mages. I mean, Therinfal Redoubt isn't exactly very far away from Redcliffe. We know Denerim is two days forced march from Redcliffe...and Therinfal Redoubt is even closer to Redcliffe.

 

She's in Redcliff because it's safer there. She asks why she should risk herself to help the people in the Crossroads from what she had seen so why would she initially be hesitant to leave Redcliff for Crossroad if the town wasn't safe enough?

 

It doesn't say. Everything points to her joining on her own free will. Fiona is damaged goods. She had a hard life and appears to make decisions all based on emotions. She can't see the other side's point of view. 

 

I can't image how anyone could turn on the people who helped them, aka Alistair and Teagan to commit treason and take over Redcliffe. Only Connor seemed to fight for the people of Redcliffe. When Fiona states my people she means Mages. Connor cares about all people and that is the difference.

 

She got herself cornered and joined a Tevinter Magister. Dorian states clearly that half of Teventer would join the Elder One. He stated that after I had him join. 

 

Do you know what her character was like in Asunder? The impression I get from the Inquisition is that by the end of it Fiona's mindset was 'us(mages) against the world'. But if she had so much dedication for her mages why would she willingly fight against the Inquisition if you side with the templars and plunging her people to pit against the Inquisition + recently joined templar forces (the thing she was kind of trying to avoid).

 

Or was she just that broken, biased and blinded to see nothing but the mages.

[CosmicGnosis]

There are definitely arrogant mages who joined the Venatori willingly. There are also some who were too scared to oppose them. And then there is Fiona. It's out-of-character for her to fight on the side of Corypheus. It makes absolutely no sense. I could more easily accept that the majority of the mages chose to fight for Corypheus out of some misguided belief that they would benefit from a restored Tevinter. But not Fiona. She isn't that delusional. Her reactions during In Hushed Whispers provide sufficient evidence that she is completely against the Venatori. If she wasn't mind-controlled or otherwise tricked into following Corypheus, then she was badly written. It's so bad that the writers should apologize for it.

 

However, I'm not cynical enough to believe that the writers screwed up her character. I think they didn't realize that they never clarified what happens to her if you save the templars. So she is somehow fooled into fighting the Inquisition, with blood magic being the most likely possibility. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

There are definitely arrogant mages who joined the Venatori willingly. There are also some who were too scared to oppose them. And then there is Fiona. It's out-of-character for her to fight on the side of Corypheus. It makes absolutely no sense. I could more easily accept that the majority of the mages chose to fight for Corypheus out of some misguided belief that they would benefit from a restored Tevinter. But not Fiona. She isn't that delusional. Her reactions during In Hushed Whispers provide sufficient evidence that she is completely against the Venatori. If she wasn't mind-controlled or otherwise tricked into following Corypheus, then she was badly written. It's so bad that the writers should apologize for it.

 

However, I'm not cynical enough to believe that the writers screwed up her character. I think they didn't realize that they never clarified what happens to her if you save the templars. So she is somehow fooled into fighting the Inquisition, with blood magic being the most likely possibility. 

or more likely they did it so Fiona haters could finally get a chance to kill her and to give people incentive to join the Templars seeing as how Gaider said he was annoyed how the majority of people sided with the mages in previous games.

[myahele]

This is why I don't really bother reading DA-based novels. Since their game appearance and actions don't reflect/ represent their book counterparts

[thesuperdarkone2]

This is why I don't really bother reading DA-based novels. Since their game appearance and actions don't reflect/ represent their book counterparts

WIWH is the worst. It's like they expect you to have already read the book to know who these characters are yet the in-game representations are different from what the books show.

[DuskWanderer]

There are definitely arrogant mages who joined the Venatori willingly. There are also some who were too scared to oppose them. And then there is Fiona. It's out-of-character for her to fight on the side of Corypheus. It makes absolutely no sense. I could more easily accept that the majority of the mages chose to fight for Corypheus out of some misguided belief that they would benefit from a restored Tevinter. But not Fiona. She isn't that delusional. Her reactions during In Hushed Whispers provide sufficient evidence that she is completely against the Venatori. If she wasn't mind-controlled or otherwise tricked into following Corypheus, then she was badly written. It's so bad that the writers should apologize for it.

 

However, I'm not cynical enough to believe that the writers screwed up her character. I think they didn't realize that they never clarified what happens to her if you save the templars. So she is somehow fooled into fighting the Inquisition, with blood magic being the most likely possibility. 

 

Considering how quickly Fiona was willing to lead the mages into open rebellion, and did nothing to deal with the people such as the ones Vivienne talked about that killed many Loyalists, turned the Tranquil over to Alexius, I'm more than willing to believe she did it willingly. Maybe reluctantly, but willingly. She pledged herself to the Imperium.

[Drasanil]

But not Fiona. She isn't that delusional.

 

We are talking about the same Fiona right? The one that declared war during a period of historically high anti-mage sentiment against an organisation with overwhelmingly vast military and logistical superiority. Said same Fiona isn't that delusional?

[Lumix19]

We are talking about the same Fiona right? The one that declared war during a period of historically high anti-mage sentiment against an organisation with overwhelmingly vast military and logistical superiority. Said same Fiona isn't that delusional?

The same Fiona who was a Grey Warden? She doesn't exactly have the greatest experience with darkspawn. It's out of character enough to sign up with Tevinter considering she knows first hand what slavery is like.

And she explains her actions, it's about seizing the moment, the mages weren't going to get another.

[DuskWanderer]

The same Fiona who was a Grey Warden? She doesn't exactly have the greatest experience with darkspawn. It's out of character enough to sign up with Tevinter considering she knows first hand what slavery is like.

And she explains her actions, it's about seizing the moment, the mages weren't going to get another.

 

This is perfectly in character: She's desperate, unwilling to compromise, and those two traits together lead her to willingly do terrible things.

[Cobra's_back]

Considering how quickly Fiona was willing to lead the mages into open rebellion, and did nothing to deal with the people such as the ones Vivienne talked about that killed many Loyalists, turned the Tranquil over to Alexius, I'm more than willing to believe she did it willingly. Maybe reluctantly, but willingly. She pledged herself to the Imperium.

 

That was pretty sad. Mages that didn't agree ran or were killed. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I love how everyone forgets Lambert was the one who started the war in the first place. The vote never would have passed if Lambert's actions didn't anger every other faction into siding with the liberatarians.

[DuskWanderer]

I love how everyone forgets Lambert was the one who started the war in the first place. The vote never would have passed if Lambert's actions didn't anger every other faction into siding with the liberatarians.

 

Lambert had his faults, but it was Adrian, not Lambert, who killed Pharamond. It was Adrian who framed it on Rhys. All because she was jealous Rhys would rather be with Evangeline. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Lambert had his faults, but it was Adrian, not Lambert, who killed Pharamond. It was Adrian who framed it on Rhys. All because she was jealous Rhys would rather be with Evangeline. 

This was the same guy who usurped control of the White Spire and turned it into a prison and who turned a blind eye to all of Meredith's abuses.

[Steelcan]

This was the same guy who usurped control of the White Spire and turned it into a prison and who turned a blind eye to all of Meredith's abuses.

and Fiona hijacked the proceedings to grandstand and knowingly brought down Lambert's wrath on her own people to carry out her insane plan

[CosmicGnosis]

I haven't felt this exhausted on BSN since the days of the ME3 ending meltdown. I simply cannot agree with the way many of you have characterized Fiona, and there is no single piece of strong evidence that vindicates me. So we're left with a frustrating debate in which no side will ever budge. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I haven't felt this exhausted on BSN since the days of the ME3 ending meltdown. I simply cannot agree with the way many of you have characterized Fiona, and there is no single piece of strong evidence that vindicates me. So we're left with a frustrating debate in which no side will ever budge. 

Welcome to BSN. Nobody wins here.

[Eggpop]

I'm more inclined to believe that Fiona willingly made a terrible mistake by handing her people to the Venatori, then most likely got brainwashed when Cory came into the picture, via magic/nightmare/whatever.

 

....Though that just makes me question how Redcliff is still intact after you join the Templars > . > < . <

[Shadow Fox]

I'm more inclined to believe that Fiona willingly made a terrible mistake by handing her people to the Venatori, then most likely got brainwashed when Cory came into the picture, via magic/nightmare/whatever.

 

....Though that just makes me question how Redcliff is still intact after you join the Templars > . > < . <

After the Templars are recruited Cory orders the mages out of Redcliffe to attack Haven.

[Deztyn]

Considering this thread has at points devolved into bickering over attempted genocide in an attempt to prove her guilty, I really don't think anyone can claim I'm the one who's moving the goal posts, I've kept playing football while you lot have been changing the game to snooker?

"You lot"

Nice.

Well, maybe I'm using the term incorrectly.
 

That she'd have to remove him at all kinda reflects poorly on her though? Not to say that you're wrong, she should have replaced him, but the whole point of Orlais that they don't ever do the sane thing to do when faced with a problem, they do the thing that allows them to save face?

See this discussion right here? ^^^^ A fine example of what I mean by moving the goalposts.

First it's prove that Fiona would allow her people to become slaves of Corypheus and attack the Inquisition. I give an answer, you ignore the answer and instead defend the deal with Alexius. I point out that it was still a terrible deal. You ignore that and defend the decision to leave Ferelden for Tevinter. I point out that the Templars weren't a real threat, and if they had been they were one she should have been prepared for. You attempt to ignore that they weren't a real threat and instead of acknowledging that Fiona knew that conflicts with the Templars were inevitable you say that the Templars shouldn't have left the Chantry. I give an explanation for that and you ignore the fact that the Divine was behaving badly.

You refuse to accept or defend against the responses you are given, and instead try to change the question.

The answer to the original question remains the same however.

Fiona would allow her people to become slaves of Corypheus if she felt that it was her best chance for them to survive. Same as with Alexius. Your problem, one that most of the people who dislike Fiona don't share, is that you refuse to believe that there is no meaningful difference between her alliance with Corypheus (or Calpernia most likely) and her alliance with Alexius.

Because you refuse to accept this simple truth, instead you flail around looking for things that prove that Fiona is somehow above making bad decisions. This of course, just results in everyone else pointing out all the many, many bad decisions that she has already made to bring us to this point.

Then people complain that we lot are all just haters who want her to be guilty of stuff because we hate elves or mages or women or whatever.

No.

I just hate that when characters make poor decisions some people refuse to just accept it and move on.

 

And I've said that the lack of the plan was a major flaw in the Rebellion and that if they had one, we needed to know what it was? It was never made clear what the Rebellion's end goal was or how they wanted to get it, either through peaceful means or otherwise? That was information we needed to know, I've agreed that the lack of plan was a problem of the rebels a couple times now?

Again, what makes you think that I'm absolving her of anything, I've said that she's enough to blame as everyone involved? I've not been doggedly accusing her of practically everything from bad management to genocide to try and prove that she's guilty of something?

I suggest you go back and reread my comments (and your own). Because I haven't been saying what you claim I have been saying.

Ah, yes.

That's right.

I'm part of "You lot" so nothing I say or do as an individual matters.

Well at least that's consistent with your views of Fiona and the Mage Rebellion.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Just going to throw out that they never did that.

By the time of the Conclave, the only mage forces in open rebellion are the two mage groups in Western Ferelden: the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe, and the power-mad apostates right outside the gates. The former are hiding behind the protection of the Ferelden Crown even as their VIPs are negotiating in the Conclave, and the power-mad apostates are being matched by a rogue/renegade Templar element.

Everywhere else, the Templars won in the field- there are mages who've gone to ground, but it's the Templars who have garrisons and overran various circles and otherwise pushed down any and every prospect for a Magi free state.


By the time of the Conclave, the Mage Rebellion as a Mage-Templar conflict is effectively over and lost: the only 'advantage' the Mages have is that if the Templars attack Redcliffe, then Ferelden's Crown would be drawn into the war on their side, and Ferelden would beat the Templars.

The Conclave is really a high-stake game of chicken in which the mages had a strong hand to negotiate their own surrender. They'd already lost the war in terms of being able to determine their own fate: all that was really left was to negotiate the terms of their oversight between the Chantry and Templars and Ferelden's Crown.

You know, I highly doubt that Bioware thought things out this much, but this really does seem to be the best way to characterize the situation before the Conclave based on what we see. Kudos.

[Boost32]

Just going to throw out that they never did that.
 
By the time of the Conclave, the only mage forces in open rebellion are the two mage groups in Western Ferelden: the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe, and the power-mad apostates right outside the gates. The former are hiding behind the protection of the Ferelden Crown even as their VIPs are negotiating in the Conclave, and the power-mad apostates are being matched by a rogue/renegade Templar element.
 
Everywhere else, the Templars won in the field- there are mages who've gone to ground, but it's the Templars who have garrisons and overran various circles and otherwise pushed down any and every prospect for a Magi free state.
 
 
By the time of the Conclave, the Mage Rebellion as a Mage-Templar conflict is effectively over and lost: the only 'advantage' the Mages have is that if the Templars attack Redcliffe, then Ferelden's Crown would be drawn into the war on their side, and Ferelden would beat the Templars.
 
The Conclave is really a high-stake game of chicken in which the mages had a strong hand to negotiate their own surrender. They'd already lost the war in terms of being able to determine their own fate: all that was really left was to negotiate the terms of their oversight between the Chantry and Templars and Ferelden's Crown.

Don't even know why Fiona thought she could win a war against the templars. They have greater numbers, all of them are soldiers trained since their childhood, templars powers counter mages powers, they are feared by nobles and common folks alike while their enemies are loved by them.
While she can get the freedom she wants even if the mages lost the war, it was dumb luck.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well I wonder if Divine Justinia would have reached out to the mages with the Inquisition and turned the tide for the mages. I think if Hawke had been chosen as Inquisitor as originally intended, whoever Hawke supported would have ultimately won the war.

[Dean_the_Young]

"You lot"

Nice.

Well, maybe I'm using the term incorrectly.
 

See this discussion right here? ^^^^ A fine example of what I mean by moving the goalposts.

First it's prove that Fiona would allow her people to become slaves of Corypheus and attack the Inquisition. I give an answer, you ignore the answer and instead defend the deal with Alexius. I point out that it was still a terrible deal. You ignore that and defend the decision to leave Ferelden for Tevinter. I point out that the Templars weren't a real threat, and if they had been they were one she should have been prepared for. You attempt to ignore that they weren't a real threat and instead of acknowledging that Fiona knew that conflicts with the Templars were inevitable you say that the Templars shouldn't have left the Chantry. I give an explanation for that and you ignore the fact that the Divine was behaving badly.

You refuse to accept or defend against the responses you are given, and instead try to change the question.

The answer to the original question remains the same however.

Fiona would allow her people to become slaves of Corypheus if she felt that it was her best chance for them to survive. Same as with Alexius. Your problem, one that most of the people who dislike Fiona don't share, is that you refuse to believe that there is no meaningful difference between her alliance with Corypheus (or Calpernia most likely) and her alliance with Alexius.

Because you refuse to accept this simple truth, instead you flail around looking for things that prove that Fiona is somehow above making bad decisions. This of course, just results in everyone else pointing out all the many, many bad decisions that she has already made to bring us to this point.

Then people complain that we lot are all just haters who want her to be guilty of stuff because we hate elves or mages or women or whatever.

No.

I just hate that when characters make poor decisions some people refuse to just accept it and move on.

 

I suggest you go back and reread my comments (and your own). Because I haven't been saying what you claim I have been saying.

Ah, yes.

That's right.

I'm part of "You lot" so nothing I say or do as an individual matters.

Well at least that's consistent with your views of Fiona and the Mage Rebellion.

 

Dez, have my babies.

 

Or I'll have yours.

 

Flip a coin? Heads I win, tails you bottom?

[Dean_the_Young]

You know, I highly doubt that Bioware thought things out this much, but this really does seem to be the best way to characterize the situation before the Conclave based on what we see. Kudos.

 

It's one of the reasons I'm more optimistic of the Conclave's potential for success than almost the entire cast of the game. I agree that the writers probably weren't thinking it- either Leliana or Vivienne or any of the politically astute people would have been well-placed to mention it- but consider what would have happened if the Conclave had failed but all the reasonable people had stayed alive and in charge.

 

First off, the extremists and incompetents would be marginalized. Fiona, who was probably left behind for a reason, might be the nominal leader of the mages but she couldn't keep them under control in the first place. For the Templars, the Knight Vigilants and whoever, who, you know, weren't red lyrium addicts or apocalyptic cultists, would still be in charge and at the top of the Templar command change just as they were when they left the Lord Seeker whoever-his-name-was behind for the grownup discussion. The idiots and extremists would still be around to cause problems, but they wouldn't literally be running the show.

 

The mages would still be in the Hinterlands. The Templars would still have their garrisons and the ability to keep an army in the field outside of Redcliffe. And the Ferelden Crown would still be protecting Redcliffe. Eventually the Templars no longer abiding by the implicit cease fire of the peace talks would (probably) wipe out the power-mad apostates outside of Redcliffe, no doubt making hay out of how wicked they were, and then...

 

Well, they have two choices. They can attack Redcliffe, provoking the Crown and all but ensuring an overwhelming defeat in the face of a national army that would render them unable to re-establish the Circle system even if they killed every last mage in the town...

 

...or they can not attack Redcliffe, leaving the Mages holed up a (bigger) prison with Templars outside the walls instead of inside of them. Maybe a blockade gets started, at least enough to try and stop smugglers from sneaking mages out, but the longer that goes on the more of a status quo it becomes until it either it's the mage's turn to screw things up (an abomination that renders the political support moot), or the mages don't **** up and the status quo continues.

 

 

I really wouldn't have been surprised had the end of the Mage-Templar war turned out to be the town of Redcliffe becoming a new sort of super-Circle, where mages live in guarded towns rather than towers and Templars guard the walls keeping them in but also staying out, with the national Crown doing the local administrating/close-in oversight and the Chantry playing mediator and coordinator between all the groups.

[Dean_the_Young]

Don't even know why Fiona thought she could win a war against the templars. They have greater numbers, all of them are soldiers trained since their childhood, templars powers counter mages powers, they are feared by nobles and common folks alike while their enemies are loved by them.
While she can get the freedom she wants even if the mages lost the war, it was dumb luck.

 

Fiona thought she could win the war because Fiona is incompetent.

 

The only thing missing from that TL;DR, and I'm ashamed to have forgotten it, was her disgraceful handling of the Tranquil.