811 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

What about when Fiona launches a second rebellion against divine Vivienne only to be completely destroyed.

 

That ending is pretty funny.

[Cobra's_back]

Fiona thought she could win the war because Fiona is incompetent.

 

The only thing missing from that TL;DR, and I'm ashamed to have forgotten it, was her disgraceful handling of the Tranquil.

 

I enjoyed reading all your comments in this thread. Well stated. This comment summarized my thoughts on Fiona.

[Cobra's_back]

What about when Fiona launches a second rebellion against divine Vivienne only to be completely destroyed.

 

That ending is pretty funny.

 

Vivienne maybe power hungry but I love her. She has class.

[Barquiel]

Fiona would allow her people to become slaves of Corypheus if she felt that it was her best chance for them to survive. Same as with Alexius. Your problem, one that most of the people who dislike Fiona don't share, is that you refuse to believe that there is no meaningful difference between her alliance with Corypheus (or Calpernia most likely) and her alliance with Alexius.

It was never established that Fiona hates Tevinter, or that she would rather die than help a tevinter magister. But we know that she feels that away about the darkspawn, they went to great lengths to show this in "the Calling". She took a stand against the Architect when everyone else was indecisive or joining him. In addition, not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a puppy-kicking, demon-summoning, moustache-twirling "evil" blood mage. Maeveris seems like a decent person for example. Cory on the other hand...he's not exactly a morally ambiguous villain. So no, it's not the same.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 The irony of that being, the Architect whom she was so opposed to was actually fairly ambiguous.

 

I think examining consistency is irrelevant. Whatever the wrong decision to make is, that is what she does. Like they say about how some people can "do no wrong," Fiona can do no right. It is simply this natural law of the DA world.

 

Same is true of SolASS.

[Cobra's_back]

It was never established that Fiona hates Tevinter, or that she would rather die than help a tevinter magister. But we know that she feels that away about the darkspawn, they went to great lengths to show this in "the Calling". She took a stand against the Architect when everyone else was indecisive or joining him. In addition, not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a puppy-kicking, demon-summoning, moustache-twirling "evil" blood mage. Maeveris seems like a decent person for example. Cory on the other hand...he's not exactly a morally ambiguous villain. So no, it's not the same.

 

I love Dorian and he told me that half of Tevinter would have joined "The Elder One".

 

I agree not all would do this, but "enslaving others" is part of their culture. 

 

Per Dorian:

 

"Back home, it's… how it is? Slaves are everywhere. You don't question it. I'm not even certain many slaves do."

 

"Some slaves are treated poorly, it's true. But do you honestly think inescapable poverty is better?"

 

 

 

So we can't truly understand them using our Western beliefs. The Elder One makes sense to 50% of their population.

[AresKeith]

Well I wonder if Divine Justinia would have reached out to the mages with the Inquisition and turned the tide for the mages. I think if Hawke had been chosen as Inquisitor as originally intended, whoever Hawke supported would have ultimately won the war.

Divine Justinia wanted peace between them, not "turn the tides" for one side over the other

[AresKeith]

This was the same guy who usurped control of the White Spire and turned it into a prison and who turned a blind eye to all of Meredith's abuses.

He just said Lambert had his own faults in this, but he was not the only one responsible for this war

[Sports72Xtrm]

Divine Justinia wanted peace between them, not "turn the tides" for one side over the other

Justinia wanted to revolutionize the treatment of mages, the thing the templars opposes because they are mired in the status quo circle system.  She opposed Lambert ever since he was made lord seeker. She already helped Fiona at the White Spire, if the templars didn't come to a fair compromise that gave the rebel mages at least a fair shake, I'm certain she would have used her influence to help the rebel mages. It may have been in yards or in inches, but she was leaning towards the mages. I suspect that' why Beatrix made her Divine, the reveloutinize the mage relationship with the world since it was the mages who came to the Chantry's defense during the templars' conspiracy in Dawn of the Seeker.

[Boost32]

Well I wonder if Divine Justinia would have reached out to the mages with the Inquisition and turned the tide for the mages. I think if Hawke had been chosen as Inquisitor as originally intended, whoever Hawke supported would have ultimately won the war.

How one man would do any diference? Its like people thinking they could win against the templars at the Gallows and were surprised when they discovered the mages were losing.

[Sports72Xtrm]

How one man would do any diference? Its like people thinking they could win against the templars at the Gallows and were surprised when they discovered the mages were losing.

Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall, respected in the Free Marches, and dependent of choice, respected by one side. Ferelden had already thrown their hat in with the rebel mages, if the Chantry issued their support of a mage-supported Hawke who was known to save Thedas from the Qunari, the rest would have followed. Alternatively, a templar-supported Hawke could also have rallied the templars as well and politiked with Orlais for support if he used what he learned in Mark of Assassin against the empress or even settled the Orlesian civil war. Inquisitor Hawke could have done what the Inquisitor did.

 

By the way, my mage Hawke did beat the templars' waves of men into submission in the Gallows.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

By the way, my mage Hawke did beat the templars' waves of men into submission in the Gallows.

 

False. You are cornered by an overwhelming force of Templars in the Gallows after the battle with Meredith. Hawke walks out because they allow it.

 

Your success in killing Templar mooks up to that point is irrelevant. Gameplay need not apply to a cinematic.

[Deztyn]

Dez, have my babies.
 
Or I'll have yours.
 
Flip a coin? Heads I win, tails you bottom?

 
 

It was never established that Fiona hates Tevinter, or that she would rather die than help a tevinter magister. But we know that she feels that away about the darkspawn, they went to great lengths to show this in "the Calling". She took a stand against the Architect when everyone else was indecisive or joining him. In addition, not everybody walking around in Tevinter is a puppy-kicking, demon-summoning, moustache-twirling "evil" blood mage. Maeveris seems like a decent person for example. Cory on the other hand...he's not exactly a morally ambiguous villain. So no, it's not the same.

 
 It's established that Fiona hates slavery.
 
She's making the choice to join a society that depends so thoroughly on slavery that it would collapse without it.

And it's not as though Corypheus is leading an army of darkspawn.
 
 

False. You are cornered by an overwhelming force of Templars in the Gallows after the battle with Meredith. Hawke walks out because they allow it.
 
Your success in killing Templar mooks up to that point is irrelevant. Gameplay need not apply to a cinematic.

Pretty much.

You walk away because Cullen likes you.

One of the reasons I always found the hate he gets from the pro-mage crowd a bit puzzling.

[CosmicGnosis]

You know, I think it would have made far more sense if Fiona had just been killed by the Venatori. They kill her, they scare the leaderless mages into submission, some of them buy into the Corypheus-As-God philosophy, and they go fight the Inquisition. There you go. Completely believable, and gives the anti-mage people plenty of valid reasons to criticize them. 

 

But instead, Fiona, for some inexplicable reason, fights the Inquisition. That's what really bothers me. It doesn't make any sense. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You said it only makes sense they would kill her. Doesn't that in and of itself explain why she might fight the Inquisition to avoid that?

[Cobra's_back]

You said it only makes sense they would kill her. Doesn't that in and of itself explain why she might fight the Inquisition to avoid that?

Actually it doesn't make sense that she joined them.

[The Baconer]

False. You are cornered by an overwhelming force of Templars in the Gallows after the battle with Meredith. Hawke walks out because they allow it.

 

No, no, Hawke walks out because they backed down.

 

You gotta make Hawke look really strong.

[Cobra's_back]

You know, I think it would have made far more sense if Fiona had just been killed by the Venatori. They kill her, they scare the leaderless mages into submission, some of them buy into the Corypheus-As-God philosophy, and they go fight the Inquisition. There you go. Completely believable, and gives the anti-mage people plenty of valid reasons to criticize them. 

 

But instead, Fiona, for some inexplicable reason, fights the Inquisition. That's what really bothers me. It doesn't make any sense. 

 

Makes more sense if they spiked her lyrium with the red stuff.

[Kakistos_]

Except Corypheus, and presumably Calpernja, are not your average run of the mill blood mages.

They are not individually powerful enough to take on an army. Both of them eventually fall to the Inquisitor and three companions.

 

Just going to throw out that they never did that.

 

By the time of the Conclave, the only mage forces in open rebellion are the two mage groups in Western Ferelden: the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe, and the power-mad apostates right outside the gates. The former are hiding behind the protection of the Ferelden Crown even as their VIPs are negotiating in the Conclave, and the power-mad apostates are being matched by a rogue/renegade Templar element.

 

Everywhere else, the Templars won in the field- there are mages who've gone to ground, but it's the Templars who have garrisons and overran various circles and otherwise pushed down any and every prospect for a Magi free state.

 

 

By the time of the Conclave, the Mage Rebellion as a Mage-Templar conflict is effectively over and lost: the only 'advantage' the Mages have is that if the Templars attack Redcliffe, then Ferelden's Crown would be drawn into the war on their side, and Ferelden would beat the Templars.

 

The Conclave is really a high-stake game of chicken in which the mages had a strong hand to negotiate their own surrender. They'd already lost the war in terms of being able to determine their own fate: all that was really left was to negotiate the terms of their oversight between the Chantry and Templars and Ferelden's Crown.

That is a lot of very specific information. I assume you have a source? If your assertion that the Templars were winning handely were true then why did they agree to the Conclave? By that time they had already severed ties with the Chantry, demanded a new Divine and had absolutly no reason to attend. Why not just skip the Conclave and finish the Mages like they wanted? Also, the only Circle Towers known to fall to the rite of Annulment, not without heavy Templar casualties, were Kirkwall and Dairsmuid of which many Mages in Kirkwall escaped to spread news of the events. No. The reason that BOTH sides agreed to the Conclave in the first place is because neither saw a clear advantage and realized the war could go on for years with no clear victor as stated by Cassandra.

[MisterJB]

 

Why exactly isn't Fiona blackmailing Alistair or selling the information to Gaspard?

 

She is a such a bad leader. This should have been the first thing she thought of.

[MisterJB]

They are not individually powerful enough to take on an army. Both of them eventually fall to the Inquisitor and three companions.

 

That is a lot of very specific information. I assume you have a source? If your assertion that the Templars were winning handely were true then why did they agree to the Conclave? By that time they had already severed ties with the Chantry, demanded a new Divine and had absolutly no reason to attend. Why not just skip the Conclave and finish the Mages like they wanted? Also, the only Circle Towers known to fall to the rite of Annulment, not without heavy Templar casualties, were Kirkwall and Dairsmuid of which many Mages in Kirkwall escaped to spread news of the events. No. The reason that BOTH sides agreed to the Conclave in the first place is because neither saw a clear advantage and realized the war could go on for years with no clear victor as stated by Cassandra.

 

He just explained why the Templars were winning.

First of all, Asunder clearly describes the mages who arrived for the independent conclave that ended up in a vote for independence were those who managed to escape the purges.

 

 

Asunder, page 400:
 

"they came hungry, with empty hands and fear in their eyes as well as tales of what was now happening in the other Circles. The Templars had cracked down. In some places they received the news of the White Spire weven before the mages there did and had struck preemptively. It made no difference. In each tower, the mages reacted the same way: They fought. Many died. The rest fled.

"

 

So, even before the rebellion was declared, the first battles had already been fought and the mages lost them.

 

Then, there is the fact that in DAI, the mages have one outpost that is entirely dependant upon the goodwill of one non-mage king who can throw them out whenever he feels like it. Meanwhile, the Templars can walk to Val Royeaux, punch a Cleric in the face and then move to their massive fortress without anyone bothering them.

 

Finally, Fiona herself will tell you the mages were losing the war. Do you think she would have abandoned the South entirely and sold her people into servitude for ten years if they still had a chance of winning?

The mere threat of Templars arriving was all it took for them to flee with their tails between their legs.

 

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

You know, I think it would have made far more sense if Fiona had just been killed by the Venatori. They kill her, they scare the leaderless mages into submission, some of them buy into the Corypheus-As-God philosophy, and they go fight the Inquisition. There you go. Completely believable, and gives the anti-mage people plenty of valid reasons to criticize them.

But instead, Fiona, for some inexplicable reason, fights the Inquisition. That's what really bothers me. It doesn't make any sense.

Lots of things in his game have instances of bad writing. Explain how Briala is totally willing to forgive Celene just by showing her a locket?

[The Baconer]

Why exactly isn't Fiona blackmailing Alistair or selling the information to Gaspard?

Why would selling Gaspard information of Alistair's heritage even be a good idea?

[Grieving Natashina]

I've been wondering if Fiona getting handed one of the biggest Idiot Balls in the series was in response to all the "Mary Sue" remarks that were thrown around before release.

 

--Pro-Dwarf, neither pro-Mage nor pro-Templar.  They are both acting like dangerous children as far as I'm concerned.  The templar side did have the better quest though.

[MisterJB]

Why would selling Gaspard information of Alistair's heritage even be a good idea?

He wants to invade Ferelden. Revealing the secret would lead to the country being split into warring factions making anos invasion that much simpler. He would falso havê to keep Fiona around as evidence.
Ferelden nobles who wish to see the king deposed would work too.