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[TK514]

Except that someone earlier in this thread detailed a passage in the game guide that says if you side with the Templars, the mages and Fiona are brainwashed into doing Coryphshites bidding. Not sure why everyone seems to just disregard this piece of data and continue the circlejerk arguments.

This is the same game guide that tells us that the max level the Inquisition can get to is 11.  Hardly what I would call a source to hang your hat on.  And Weekes' comment about the issue makes it clear he doesn't know, which is why he specifically defers to Gaider who never addresses it.

[The Baconer]

Bringing up the archon doesn't really impact this discussion, when it's the Senate, specifically the Magisterium that most are thinking of when trying to get to that position, especially since the Senate concerns more than one position.

 

Yes it does, especially when combating the notion that an Altus birth is required to even receive a palatable experience within a Tevinter Circle.

 

This is about the masses, and the mass of mages per Dorian's word are just everyday people with a slightly higher position. I'd rather have free **** that's on par with nobles than have to work just to live comfortably. But that's just me. So yes, I'm sure theirs a chance you can become Archon. That slim chance isn't worth my one way ticket to Tevinter. Neither is the cushy life worth my one way trip to Orlais. The point. 

 

Yet, does that really form a stable basis to assume that "most" Tevinter mages would be envious of their southern counterparts? Where it takes decades of commitment to get some lodging that isn't a military-style bunkhouse? Where interpretations of the local religion, more often than not, consider you as being cursed, as opposed to being the highest form of sentient life on Thedas?

 

I suppose that, if one's talent and/or ambition rendered "welfare case" their most feasible prospect, they'd have reason to be jelly.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There are mages that are still oppressed or otherwise suffering in the low end of the social ladder in the Tevinter Imperium. Lateans aren't those mages.

[Ranadiel Marius]

No idea either, especially since Weekes backs it up?

Guess it's easier to rag on the mages?

A. His answer was basically the equivalent of "I dunno, maybe?"

B. Why are mage supporters so intent on removing all agency from Fiona in what can be said to be the only good decision she makes in the entire game? Is it that hard to believe that a mage made a good tactical choice?

[Kakistos_]

He just explained why the Templars were winning.

First of all, Asunder clearly describes the mages who arrived for the independent conclave that ended up in a vote for independence were those who managed to escape the purges.

 

 

Asunder, page 400:
 

"they came hungry, with empty hands and fear in their eyes as well as tales of what was now happening in the other Circles. The Templars had cracked down. In some places they received the news of the White Spire weven before the mages there did and had struck preemptively. It made no difference. In each tower, the mages reacted the same way: They fought. Many died. The rest fled.

"

 

So, even before the rebellion was declared, the first battles had already been fought and the mages lost them.

 

Then, there is the fact that in DAI, the mages have one outpost that is entirely dependant upon the goodwill of one non-mage king who can throw them out whenever he feels like it. Meanwhile, the Templars can walk to Val Royeaux, punch a Cleric in the face and then move to their massive fortress without anyone bothering them.

 

Finally, Fiona herself will tell you the mages were losing the war. Do you think she would have abandoned the South entirely and sold her people into servitude for ten years if they still had a chance of winning?

The mere threat of Templars arriving was all it took for them to flee with their tails between their legs.

You are describing the events leading up to the war, the Circle rebellions, most prominently Kirkwall and Dairsmuid. The actual war itself, or more specifically open conflict between Mage and Templar in the field, does not begin until AFTER Asunder when the Mages actually leave the Circle Towers and the Templars follow. And again, if the Mages were losing the whole time, why did the Templars agree to the Conclave when they suspected it could be a trap in the first place? That is the very opening premise of Inquisition and its setting, The Conclave:

 

"They envisioned the war over quickly; a single battle that would see the mages' resolve crumble, after which they would meekly return to confinement. That did not happen. This conflict could drag on forever, with advantage on neither side. Both templars and mages see this, and thus they have agreed to come to the Conclave."

[Boost32]

You are describing the events leading up to the war, the Circle rebellions, most prominently Kirkwall and Dairsmuid. The actual war itself, or more specifically open conflict between Mage and Templar in the field, does not begin until AFTER Asunder when the Mages actually leave the Circle Towers and the Templars follow. And again, if the Mages were losing the whole time, why did the Templars agree to the Conclave when they suspected it could be a trap in the first place? That is the very opening premise of Inquisition and its setting, The Conclave:

"They envisioned the war over quickly; a single battle that would see the mages' resolve crumble, after which they would meekly return to confinement. That did not happen. This conflict could drag on forever, with advantage on neither side. Both templars and mages see this, and thus they have agreed to come to the Conclave."

Fiona herself said the mages were losing the war, the last largest rebel group is the one from Redcliff, and they have only hundreds of mages while the templars have thousands of knights.

[Barquiel]

The situation became desperate after the conclave was destroyed (many powerful mages killed, people blaming the mages for the destruction of the temple?), but the idea that the mages were losing before the events in the game isn't really supported by any in-game dialogue, and pure speculation. Fiona for example says she agreed to Justinia's conclave because the endless warfare benefited no one, not because the templars had the upper hand.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The situation became desperate after the conclave was destroyed (many powerful mages killed, people blaming the mages for the destruction of the temple?), but the idea that the mages were losing before the events in the game isn't really supported by any in-game dialogue, and pure speculation. Fiona for example says she agreed to Justinia's conclave because the endless warfare benefited no one, not because the templars had the upper hand.

Well Dean's suggestion of how events were prior to the Conclave doesn't really have either side "winning," but rather in a stalemate which neither was capable of doing anything about.

[Boost32]

The situation became desperate after the conclave was destroyed (many powerful mages killed, people blaming the mages for the destruction of the temple?), but the idea that the mages were losing before the events in the game isn't really supported by any in-game dialogue, and pure speculation. Fiona for example says she agreed to Justinia's conclave because the endless warfare benefited no one, not because the templars had the upper hand.

Talk to Fiona at the travern and choose "you've made a huge mistake", she will tell the mages were losing the war and the conclave was her last hope.

[Kakistos_]

Fiona herself said the mages were losing the war, the last largest rebel group is the one from Redcliff, and they have only hundreds of mages while the templars have thousands of knights.

The Templars were probably feeling the same way hence the Conclave and entire setting. Lord Seeker Lambert may have made similar concerns apparent had he actually been there. Cassandra herself makes this clear early on.

[Boost32]

The Templars were probably feeling the same way hence the Conclave and entire setting. Lord Seeker Lambert may have made similar concerns apparent had he actually been there. Cassandra herself makes this clear early on.

Cassandra said no side could win the war, not that any side wasnt losing.
Fiona say the mages were losing, but with the Redcliff protection the templars would never defeat them.
The part were the templars felt the same is your speculation, the mage losing is canon.

[Gervaise]

Lord Seeker Lambert was already dead before the events in the game.   Cole killed him shortly after he broke with the Chantry specifically in order to try and avert the bloodshed that Lambert was planning.    Lambert would never have agreed to the Conclave.     Lord Seeker Lucius was the one in charge at the time of the Conclave and the one whom the demon was impersonating.

 

The mages originally dug in at Andoral's Reach.   Even there they thought they had a good chance of holding off the Templars.    It was a prolonged siege that would have been worse for them as they were so far out from civilisation with no supply lines.    If they thought Tevinter and good bet, they would have found it far easier to travel north from that location and reach the "safety" of the Tevinter before the Templars could catch up with them.    The mage rebellion was invited to occupy Redcliffe Castle by the monarch of Ferelden on behalf of all their people.   Once there they could have concentrated on building up their supplies for a siege in case the Conclave did not work out favourably for them.   With the degree of magical fire power at their disposal, sufficient supplies and the backing of the monarch, they could have easily held off the Templars.   In Anora's case she even made an impassioned speech to win the people, in particular the nobles, over to the cause.    Fiona's decision to indenture the rebel mages to a foreign power effectively betrayed the trust of the people of Ferelden.    If Anora is in power the codex says it severely damages her standing with them.   It was hardly a recommendation for what mages would do if given their freedom from the Circles. 

 

The only thing I will say in defence of Fiona is that she did put it to the vote, not knowing that already the Venatori had infiltrated their ranks and so swayed the outcome in Alexius' favour.    Whether the Venatori also used blood magic to influence the minds of the mages is open to question.   However, you do see a Venatori working to influence Connor when you get to Redcliffe, so it is easy to see how they achieved their aims even without blood magic.    However, if you do Hushed Whispers, Fiona is still in Redcliffe Castle in full possession of her faculties a year later.    If they were going to use blood magic on her to control her mind, why didn't they do so?  Same goes for that other mage who was against the rebellion and he hasn't even been used as red lyrium fertiliser.

 

I think it is telling the we meet various mages who have abandoned the rebel's cause because they did not like the way things were going.   It was Rhys' vote that caused them to go through with the rebellion in the first place, yet he had left them prior to the Conclave.      To my mind the Venatori spies had already infiltrated long before the Conclave and were helping to shape the thoughts of the rebel mages, including Fiona's perception that they were "losing" the war.     If you want to call that brainwashing, go ahead, but a strong willed enough person, with the right convictions, would have resisted them.

[Boost32]

The only thing I will say in defence of Fiona is that she did put it to the vote, not knowing that already the Venatori had infiltrated their ranks and so swayed the outcome in Alexius' favour.    Whether the Venatori also used blood magic to influence the minds of the mages is open to question.   However, you do see a Venatori working to influence Connor when you get to Redcliffe, so it is easy to see how they achieved their aims even without blood magic.    However, if you do Hushed Whispers, Fiona is still in Redcliffe Castle in full possession of her faculties a year later.    If they were going to use blood magic on her to control her mind, why didn't they do so?  Same goes for that other mage who was against the rebellion and he hasn't even been used as red lyrium fertiliser.
 

She didn't put it to a vote, talk to the elf mage at Redcliff, he will say that Fiona didn't ask anyone when she sold the rebellion to Tevinter.

[Gervaise]

Sorry, you are quite correct, I'd forgotten that.   The excuse about Venatori infiltrating their ranks is I recall the one used by Fiona herself when you get to Skyhold.  

 

I still think that we should have been able to put Fiona on trial, just as we did the surviving member of the Templar officers.    It was a similar situation in that she as leader did something to the detriment of her followers without letting them know what she was doing until the deal was done.   Alexius was a separate issue.    Instead she was left as de facto leader of the mages and if the "wrong" divine was elected she continued to make trouble.   It is for this reason that once I realised I could not remove her as leader I decided that in future I would always conscript the mages rather than ally with them.   This also has the benefit that the rogue elements in the mage ranks try to escape and then if you let them go, lead you to a cell that is manufacturing more of the stuff that Anders used to blow up the Kirkwall Chantry.   They would have made very trustworthy allies (heavy sarcasm).

[Drasanil]

Sorry, you are quite correct, I'd forgotten that.   The excuse about Venatori infiltrating their ranks is I recall the one used by Fiona herself when you get to Skyhold.  

 

I still think that we should have been able to put Fiona on trial, just as we did the surviving member of the Templar officers.    It was a similar situation in that she as leader did something to the detriment of her followers without letting them know what she was doing until the deal was done.   Alexius was a separate issue.    Instead she was left as de facto leader of the mages and if the "wrong" divine was elected she continued to make trouble.   It is for this reason that once I realised I could not remove her as leader I decided that in future I would always conscript the mages rather than ally with them.   This also has the benefit that the rogue elements in the mage ranks try to escape and then if you let them go, lead you to a cell that is manufacturing more of the stuff that Anders used to blow up the Kirkwall Chantry.   They would have made very trustworthy allies (heavy sarcasm).

 

Same here, if I decide the save the mages from their own stupidity I always conscript them. Nothing quite like the satisfaction of knowing Divine Viv crushes Fiona like a bug with her impeccable heel. 

[CBotB]

I don't think she had much choice in the end.

yeah I think in the end it was desperation, and the fact that at that point she was probably stuck with the venatori anyway be it through conscious choice or blood magic. Like she said earlier in the game, All hope died with Junstinia (not the direct quote I know)

[CosmicGnosis]

The fact that you can't have a formal judgment of her probably indicates that BioWare thinks she is innocent. The implication, of course, is that the Venatori magically influenced her mind.

[DuskWanderer]

Especially since the content is supported by the now head of the DA team, making it Word of God. 

 

As I recall, his response was "maybe?" Not "absolutely"

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

As I recall, his response was "maybe?" Not "absolutely"

He kind of said hat if he guide said so it must be true, meaning the devs don' have the hatred some people seem to have in these forums for using he guide

[LOLandStuff]

The fact that you can't have a formal judgment of her probably indicates that BioWare thinks she is innocent. The implication, of course, is that the Venatori magically influenced her mind.

 

Is this for real?

 

He kind of said hat if he guide said so it must be true, meaning the devs don' have the hatred some people seem to have in these forums for using he guide

 

His response sounded more like a "Yeah, whatever."

But do tell us again how very much people hate Fiona.

 

There's so much desperation in these two comments.

[AresKeith]

The fact that you can't have a formal judgment of her probably indicates that BioWare thinks she is innocent. The implication, of course, is that the Venatori magically influenced her mind.

 

It doesn't indicate anything from Bioware 

[Drasanil]

The fact that you can't have a formal judgment of her probably indicates that BioWare thinks she is innocent. The implication, of course, is that the Venatori magically influenced her mind.

 

Lmao. The desperation in that post.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

I'm sure insulting the OP will totally convince him to see your side /s

You people are not helping make your side look better

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

The fact that you can't have a formal judgment of her probably indicates that BioWare thinks she is innocent. The implication, of course, is that the Venatori magically influenced her mind.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt. 

[Lady Artifice]

Using terms like "you people" never makes anyone's side look better.