811 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

I'm sure insulting the OP will totally convince him to see your side /s

You people are not helping make your side look better

 

You people?

[raging_monkey]

Using terms like "you people" never makes anyone's side look better.

it does create unneeded animosity

[LOLandStuff]

Meh...

 

But it does somewhat reek of desperation.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

it does create unneeded animosity

"Us" and "Them" thing always creates animosity. 

[Lady Artifice]

it does create unneeded animosity

 

And a ridiculous sense of passion concerning the discussion of fictional politics. 

[raging_monkey]

"Us" and "Them" thing always creates animosity.

yup must be something in the water

[AresKeith]

yup must be something in the water

 

Lyrium

[raging_monkey]

And a ridiculous sense of passion concerning the discussion of fictional politics.

Agreed it's just a game idk why there's such a civil war/wars here we all enjoy bioware games no need to insult each other fans should stick togethor

[raging_monkey]

Lyrium

red,blue,or green

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

yup must be something in the water

At least not everyone drank from that water.

[Gothfather]

... so why does she stay with him if you save the templars? She hates the idea of the Venatori, the time magic, the Elder One... all of it. Granted, she only learns about these things because of the Inquisition. Without it, Fiona seems to be at the mercy of Alexius and his time magic illusions. 

 

So I don't think Fiona is as dumb as some people like to argue. I think she and the mages are simply trapped in a massive illusion created by the Venatori. I wish that we could hear her reasons for fighting us during In Your Heart Shall Burn. That could have cleared up a lot of confusion.

 

I'm sorry but this is just an apology post. Fiona lead the mages to destruction because she is a terrible leader. The timing of the mage rebellion just after the destruction of a Kirkwall Chantry could only be interpreted as the Mages supported the atrocity, because it was done in the name of mage freedom. That is on Fiona she pressed the vote, and she had no plan for mages once they broke away from the circles. That is on Fiona she should have had a plan for winning the vote she didn't. Then the destruction of the conclave happens and she has no plan on how to address the problem.

 

Fiona showed just how stupid and ineffectual she was as a leader long before Alexius showed up, it is rather unfair to blame everything on him. The mages knew full well who they were getting in bed with and they willing did so. There was no talk about a mage purge, yet there is a Templar purge, regardless of which side you pick, you can find this out from picking the Templars or by having the Chargers investigate via the war table.

 

The mage order and Fiona have to bare some of the responsibility of their actions. I think people have become apologist for Fiona because DA:I did a far better job at showing that mages are not as innocent or persecuted as many Fans want them to be. The issue is far more complex and this is just fans trying to simplify things because they want to view mages as the blameless party and they are not. Conversely they are not also the sole aggressors.

[raging_monkey]

At least not everyone drank from that water.

it's tempting

[Lady Artifice]

Hang "desperation." 

 

There's evidence to support the blood magic manipulation theory. It might not be sufficient evidence for everyone, which is perfectly reasonable. What is perfectly unreasonable is to belittle everyone who subscribes to it as though it's indicative of some failing in common sense. 

 

The game leaves the matter ambiguous, so dripping condescension and passive aggressive jabs at each other out for interpreting it differently is unnecessary, and a little silly. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

it's tempting

Only the weak mind would fall for such temptation.

[raging_monkey]

And just arrogant

[raging_monkey]

Only the weak mind would fall for such temptation.

but it's so pretty

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

but it's so pretty

Fight it, don't let it cloud your mind, Monkey.

[raging_monkey]

Fight it, don't let it cloud your mind, Monkey.

pretty colours though

[Kakistos_]

Cassandra said no side could win the war, not that any side wasnt losing.
Fiona say the mages were losing, but with the Redcliff protection the templars would never defeat them.
The part were the templars felt the same is your speculation, the mage losing is canon.

That is a very contradictory statement. Neither side could win but one was losing???? /Logic. The Templars feeling that they could not win IS NOT speculation. It is the very setting for the game and the Conclave. Again, THIS is a canon codex entry, one of the first you receive when you gain control of you character at the very beginning: "This conflict could drag on forever, with advantage on neither side. Both templars and mages see this, and thus they have agreed to come to the Conclave."

[Dean_the_Young]

They are not individually powerful enough to take on an army. Both of them eventually fall to the Inquisitor and three companions.

 

That is a lot of very specific information. I assume you have a source?

 

 

The elements are from the various points of DAI. The analysis of the implications is my own.

 

The Mages having one major center of power is an explicit reflection of the remaining Rebel Mages being holed up in Redcliffe and nowhere else, while all other mage groups mentioned elsewhere are either razed Circles (such as Rivain) or neutral ones (the war table mission up north- Nevarra maybe?) and the lack of any other mage hold-out.

 

This is in contrast to the Templars presence, who demonstratably had a presence at the Hinterlands, at White Spire at Orlais, at Therinfell in Eastern Ferelden, at/near the netural Circle in northern Thedas, had already overrun the Circle in Rivain, outright dominated the city of Kirkwall for a time, and had the implicit support network to maintain so many wide-spread operations. The mages losing the war is conceeded by Fiona herself, who uses it to rationalize her decisions.

 

Ferelden providing support to the Mages is explicit in DAI. The Mage and Templar and Chantry senior 'serious' and relevant leaders being the ones at the Conclave is repeated multiple times. The Templars being stronger than the Mages is conceeded by Fiona herself, while Ferelden being stronger than the Templars is an assessment I make based on the relative strengths of a renegade army vs. a nation that controls and can reinforce the relevant key terrain.

 

 

 

If your assertion that the Templars were winning handely were true then why did they agree to the Conclave? By that time they had already severed ties with the Chantry, demanded a new Divine and had absolutly no reason to attend. Why not just skip the Conclave and finish the Mages like they wanted?

 

Because the Templars could beat the mages in the field, but the mages had stopped fighting the field and were hiding behind a nation that the Templars wouldn't win handily against. Even if they succeeded at taking Redcliffe (a big 'if'), the Templars wouldn't be able to survive the Chantry and Ferelden uniting against them.

 

The Templars don't 'win' if they massacre every living mage- they 'win' if the current and future mages go back into Circles with acceptable (read- Templar) oversight. The Templars can't do that if they're run out of Ferelden for sacking Ferelden cities. Going to the Conclave might.

 

 

To make an analogy- you don't get wool by butchering your own sheep in another farmer's pasture.

 

 

 

 

Also, the only Circle Towers known to fall to the rite of Annulment, not without heavy Templar casualties, were Kirkwall and Dairsmuid of which many Mages in Kirkwall escaped to spread news of the events. No.

 

 

Here's the thing though- those Circles did fall, with no major Circle Magi rebellion left in those areas, Bloody or not, the Templars clear cut won and the mages fled- just as the mages fled the other towers, including the Ferelden circle. The Circles that weren't Annulled or didn't declare neutrality aren't hold-outs for the Rebel mages, they were abandoned.

 

Redcliffe is described as the refuge of the remaining rebel mages, and it is where the last major mage leader outright conceeds that she was losing the war so bad that slavery and exile in Tevinter was deemed the best survival option. It is never described as one of many magi bastions, no other rebel bastions are ever raised or suggested, and Fiona's own discussion and actions are wildly inconsistent with the magi being anything apporaching a near-peer force to the Templar forces.

 

 

The reason that BOTH sides agreed to the Conclave in the first place is because neither saw a clear advantage and realized the war could go on for years with no clear victor as stated by Cassandra.

 

 

The reason the war could go on for years with no clear victor was because the mages had stopped fighting it and were hiding in Redcliffe, and the Templars weren't attacking. Calling the Hinterlands a war by the post-Conclave (which the cast does) is a bit of a joke, because the only two forces still engaging eachother were Renegade Templars without support and fanatical mage supremacists hiding in caves right outside the protected city.

 

(Pro-tip: in a conflict between factions the one that hides in caves for shelter rather than in organized encampentments probably isn't the leading side.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Using terms like "you people" never makes anyone's side look better. 

 

You people are sexy, sexy beasts.

 

 

(How about that? Did I do it right?)

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

pretty colours though

For some reason I read that in Alistair's voice, "Oohh pretty colours".

[raging_monkey]

For some reason I read that in Alistair's voice, "Oohh pretty colours".

I do have a lovely voice and decent skill at mimicry so I can do that

[Lady Artifice]

You people are sexy, sexy beasts.

 

 

(How about that? Did I do it right?)

 

So, clearly there's always an exception. 

[Boost32]

That is a very contradictory statement. Neither side could win but one was losing???? /Logic. The Templars feeling that they could not win IS NOT speculation. It is the very setting for the game and the Conclave. Again, THIS is a canon codex entry, one of the first you receive when you gain control of you character at the very beginning: "This conflict could drag on forever, with advantage on neither side. Both templars and mages see this, and thus they have agreed to come to the Conclave."

What did you not understand? The templars were winning the war, Fiona said so, but the mages made a deal with Ferelden. There was no way to the templars win the war, they couldnt invade Redcliff, not only they would be repelem but they would start a war against Ferelden, whats so hard to understand?
Go and talk to Fiona, she will say "we were losing the war", how two sides can be losing the war?