811 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

I refuse to believe that Fiona is an idiot. It would make absolutely no sense, based on everything she says and does outside of In Your Heart Shall Burn. She came to the Inquisition before Alexius used his time magic. She is shocked by Alexius' evolving terms of their agreement. She rejects his plan to remake the world for Corypheus. She is appalled by everything she learns during In Hushed Whispers. 

 

Some people are just determined to make the mages seem utterly irredeemable. 

 

The fact she accepted help from a Tevinter mage when they were already being protected by the King/Queen of Ferelden was already stupid

[In Exile]

Name one faction that serves Corypheus without being mind-controlled by him? There isn't any. Why would the Mages be any different?

The Red Templar leadership was quite willing. The red templars themselves go bonkers, but that's not what you asked.

[CosmicGnosis]

She made stupid choices because Alexius had some command over reality. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he altered events around Redcliffe several times just to confuse Fiona into joining him.

[Master Warder Z_]

Plus she has onset dementia and senility

[Deztyn]

She made stupid choices because Alexius had some command over reality. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he altered events around Redcliffe several times just to confuse Fiona into joining him.

 

Uh-huh.

 

So he somehow altered events around Redcliffe so much that she forgot she was originally invited there by the Monarchy.

 

And how does that theory apply to Asunder?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I think she (freely) agreed to attack Haven with Corypheus because she feared the Inquisition after they recruited the Templars.

 

She may have hated Alexius's plan, but that is after the fact that she agreed to ally with him in the first place for no very good reason.

 

It is not hard to imagine Fiona makes the same mistake with Cory, agreeing to ally with him while not knowing what she's doing (like Solass).

[CosmicGnosis]

My point is that the mages in Redcliffe are experiencing some extraordinary manipulation. Alexius has time magic, Venatori allies, blood magic, and even a Ferelden arl helping him trick the mages into joining him. Fiona's initial instinct was to contact the Inquisition. This was a wise decision. But Alexius intervened and prevented her from doing that (he could only change the timeline around Redcliffe).

 

And then there is Arl Gallagher Wulff. He was tricked into encouraging the mages to go to Tevinter because he believed that it was the best outcome for everyone. The devastating war would end, the mages would be safer among their own kind in Tevinter, and southern Thedas would recover in peace. Frankly. the logic here is rather compelling. The real problem is that Alexius does not represent Tevinter, but rather the Venatori. 

[LOLandStuff]

Excusing the mages' stupidity via brainwashing is just silly.

The fact that many mages fled, others died for refusing to join, while another disgruntled bunch just sits around scowling is rather obvious there was no branwashing, blood magic or some other weird mojo going on.

 

Fiona made a stupid mistake and there's no excuse for that. Besides, it's Fioana, she's always been impulsive.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Excusing the mages' stupidity via brainwashing is just silly.

The fact that many mages fled, others died for refusing to join, while another disgruntled bunch just sits around scowling is rather obvious there was no branwashing, blood magic or some other weird mojo going on.

 

Fiona made a stupid mistake and there's no excuse for that. Besides, it's Fioana, she's always been impulsive.

 

Well not that I have a strong opinion one way or another but it's possible Fiona herself could have been brainwashed, but not the rest.

[thats1evildude]

Look, it's pretty simple: most of her people joined the Venatori. Meanwhile, the Inquisition had thrown its lot in with the Templars. Her cause was utterly lost, and resisting the Venatori would have been suicide. She fights for Corypheus because that's all she could do.

[Deztyn]

My point is that the mages in Redcliffe are experiencing some extraordinary manipulation. Alexius has time magic, Venatori allies, blood magic, and even a Ferelden arl helping him trick the mages into joining him. Fiona's initial instinct was to contact the Inquisition. This was a wise decision. But Alexius intervened and prevented her from doing that (he could only change the timeline around Redcliffe).

 

And then there is Arl Gallagher Wulff. He was tricked into encouraging the mages to go to Tevinter because he believed that it was the best outcome for everyone. The devastating war would end, the mages would be safer among their own kind in Tevinter, and southern Thedas would recover in peace. Frankly. the logic here is rather compelling. The real problem is that Alexius does not represent Tevinter, but rather the Venatori. 

 

The fact that Fiona was manipulated into making a stupid choice, doesn't make the choice any less stupid. And it doesn't make it so out of character it requires blood magic or some other mental manipulation to explain. She makes bad decisions driven by emotion and her ideology that hurt her cause fairly consistently. She's not faultless just because she can have a few smart choices woven in here and there.

[SgtSteel91]

My point is that the mages in Redcliffe are experiencing some extraordinary manipulation. Alexius has time magic, Venatori allies, blood magic, and even a Ferelden arl helping him trick the mages into joining him. Fiona's initial instinct was to contact the Inquisition. This was a wise decision. But Alexius intervened and prevented her from doing that (he could only change the timeline around Redcliffe).

 

And then there is Arl Gallagher Wulff. He was tricked into encouraging the mages to go to Tevinter because he believed that it was the best outcome for everyone. The devastating war would end, the mages would be safer among their own kind in Tevinter, and southern Thedas would recover in peace. Frankly. the logic here is rather compelling. The real problem is that Alexius does not represent Tevinter, but rather the Venatori. 

 

I want to add that the Divine and many other people died in an explosion that tore open the veil. It's not hard to imagine that people are going to blame the Mages for the Divine's death or at least the tear in the Veil. And with the peace talks blown up and people pointing their fingers at Mages, it's only a matter of time until they get thrown to the Templars wolves. At that point accepting an offer to be accepted into a Mage-positive country like Tevinter does start to look tempting if the alternative is death, weather it be a quick death from the Templars or slow death in the Circles.

[Dean_the_Young]

I want to add that the Divine and many other people died in an explosion that tore open the veil. It's not hard to imagine that people are going to blame the Mages for the Divine's death or at least the tear in the Veil. And with the peace talks blown up and people pointing their fingers at Mages, it's only a matter of time until they get thrown to the Templars wolves. At that point accepting an offer to be accepted into a Mage-positive country like Tevinter does start to look tempting if the alternative is death, weather it be a quick death from the Templars or slow death in the Circles.

 

Except it's not 'only a matter of time'- time in most respects favors the Mages, because all their immediate concerns (Templar army, imminent eviction) are imaginary. Mages aren't the only one to be blamed for the Divine's death, and there's no indication that the people supporting the mages (Redcliffe and the Monarchs of Ferelden in particular) have any change in their view because of it.

 

Rationalizing the choice to side with Tevinter because of imminent political fallout is not really that different from rationalizing the choice on the grounds of an imminent Templar army. Both reasons are unsupported by the facts on the ground, paranoid in their perspective, and ultimately non-existent.

 

Now, calling Tevinter a 'mage positive' country and treating it as any less of a 'slow death' than the Circles, when the mages are marching off to be military slaves, is also a bit weird, but whatevs.

[Sifr]

Plus she has onset dementia and senility

 

To be fair, the only person saying that is Vivienne... who's the leader of the Loyalist (and Chantry Apologist) faction, has a low opinion of Fiona and the Rebellion anyway, presumably is harbouring a lot of resentment towards Fiona for being picked as Grand Enchanter over someone like her, and otherwise, often comes across a snide to those she doesn't like?

 

Except it's not 'only a matter of time'- time in most respects favors the Mages, because all their immediate concerns (Templar army, imminent eviction) are imaginary. Mages aren't the only one to be blamed for the Divine's death, and there's no indication that the people supporting the mages (Redcliffe and the Monarchs of Ferelden in particular) have any change in their view because of it.

 

Rationalizing the choice to side with Tevinter because of imminent political fallout is not really that different from rationalizing the choice on the grounds of an imminent Templar army. Both reasons are unsupported by the facts on the ground, paranoid in their perspective, and ultimately non-existent.

 

Now, calling Tevinter a 'mage positive' country and treating it as any less of a 'slow death' than the Circles, when the mages are marching off to be military slaves, is also a bit weird, but whatevs.

 

Exactly, the Mages gain nothing by attacking Haven, which would only further harm the already poor image that people have of them?

 

Launching an assault against the people who just saved Thedas from being swallowed up by a giant hole in the sky, is such a daft move, who would ever willingly agree to it, unless they were being manipulated or controlled in some way?

 

Even if they feared the Inquisition having a Templar army at their disposal, that army currently consists of recruits, a couple squaddies and a scant few officers, who managed to escape most of the order being wiped out at Therinfal or turned into monsters?

 

Furthermore, Templars are either disbanded, conscripted or joined as allies of the Inquisition, so at least two of those three basically neutralised them as a threat to the mages for the time being, while the other has them being reigned in by the Inquisition?

 

So far, taking care of the Breach, closing Rifts and fighting demons is all the Inquistion cares about, not the Mage Rebellion. Given that Rifts are everywhere and demons are far bigger threat than the Mages, the Inquisition has far more work to do than deal with them and realistically, that gives the Mages a lot of time to weigh their options and figure out what to do next?

 

Launching a suicidal attack only weakens their cause, what would be the point?

[Boost32]

To be fair, the only person saying that is Vivienne... who's the leader of the Loyalist (and Chantry Apologist) faction, has a low opinion of Fiona and the Rebellion anyway, presumably is harbouring a lot of resentment towards Fiona for being picked as Grand Enchanter over someone like her, and otherwise, often comes across a snide to those she doesn't like?



Exactly, the Mages gain nothing by attacking Haven, which would only further harm the already poor image that people have of them?

Launching an assault against the people who just saved Thedas from being swallowed up by a giant hole in the sky, is such a daft move, who would ever willingly agree to it, unless they were being manipulated or controlled in some way?

Even if they feared the Inquisition having a Templar army at their disposal, that army currently consists of recruits, a couple squaddies and a scant few officers, who managed to escape most of the order being wiped out at Therinfal or turned into monsters?

Furthermore, Templars are either disbanded, conscripted or joined as allies of the Inquisition, so at least two of those three basically neutralised them as a threat to the mages for the time being, while the other has them being reigned in by the Inquisition?

So far, taking care of the Breach, closing Rifts and fighting demons is all the Inquistion cares about, not the Mage Rebellion. Given that Rifts are everywhere and demons are far bigger threat than the Mages, the Inquisition has far more work to do than deal with them and realistically, that gives the Mages a lot of time to weigh their options and figure out what to do next?

Launching a suicidal attack only weakens their cause, what would be the point?

And Fiona's actions show that Vivienne's assertions are true.

They would gain not be killed by Corypheus, the ones who resisted were killed, the rest fell in line.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Now, calling Tevinter a 'mage positive' country and treating it as any less of a 'slow death' than the Circles, when the mages are marching off to be military slaves, is also a bit weird, but whatevs.

 

I had to laugh at that bit, myself. In Tevinter, most mages would envy what they have in the Circle.

[Lady Artifice]

I had to laugh at that bit, myself. In Tevinter, most mages would envy what they have in the Circle.

 

Can you elaborate on that theory? 

[Boost32]

Can you elaborate on that theory?

There are a lot of mage slaves on Tevinter.

[Sifr]

And Fiona's actions show that Vivienne's assertions are true.

They would gain not be killed by Corypheus, the ones who resisted were killed, the rest fell in line.

 

Not really, all that shows is that Vivienne's extremely snide to her political opponents, which we already knew?

 

As for that second point, wouldn't that prove that they didn't join willingly then, having been coerced through threats or torture, enslavement or death?

[Cobra's_back]

There were Circle mages who willingly joined the Venatori and who admired Corypheus even, like the author of this diary.

 

http://dragonage.wik..._Venatori_Diary

 

Of course, I am assuming that it is a Southern Mage because he speaks of fear of being branded an apostate and mentions a Circle. Still, one could argue he is Tevinter.

 

 

Good find. I also thought they had free will and made this decision on their own.

[In Exile]

I had to laugh at that bit, myself. In Tevinter, most mages would envy what they have in the Circle.

I'm not sure that's true. The questor (is that how it's spelled) Dorian mentioned who is at the ass end of the 100 Pillars might very well still be better off than a Circle mage - at the very least having freedom of movement (and possibly wealth and certainly social standing over the serfs). Don't underestimate the power of being on the upper-end of the social power scale on a general societal level, even if you're at the bottom of the true power scale (e.g. IRL middle management). 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There are a lot of mage slaves on Tevinter.

 

And the slaves actually generally have it better than freedmen, as per Varenia (sp?). Slavery exists there because being free and outside the upper 1% is that bad.

 

Tevinter is great if you are in the social elite (Altus or below). Otherwise (for most people, mage included) it is ****ty.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And the slaves actually generally have it better than freedmen, as per Varenia (sp?). Slavery exists there because being free and outside the upper 1% is that bad.

 

Tevinter is great if you are in the social elite (Altus or below). Otherwise (for most people, mage included) it is ****ty.

Hopefully when we go there, we can tear that system down. 

[raging_monkey]

Hopefully when we go there, we can tear that system down.

unlikely since we "couldn't tear orlais' system down" slavery in tevinter isn't all bad (bad but understandable )

[Uccio]

Hopefully when we go there, we can tear that system down. 

 

Well since we could not wreck Orlais I sure hope we can´t wreck Tevinter either.