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Fiona clearly hates Alexius' plan during In Hushed Whispers...


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#726
Lady Artifice

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Also, last I remember, mage supporters didn't insult and dismiss users for their grammar and punctuation.

 

Several of the people you're referencing here, the ones who critized punctuation, are huge Mage players and supporters. One of them was even on the in defense of Fiona side. And this isn't even close to the first time you've accused people of favoring a position that they don't. 

 

If you're going to hurdle into the thread, raining accusations in all directions, you might at least try to pay attention to the discussion first. 

 

 

Also, most of the Templar supporters tend to favor Cassandra.


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#727
Grieving Natashina

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Guys, this might be a great time to start using the ignore feature.  I've been reading the last few pages and there is a lot of posts that are insulting back and forth.  It seems like it's getting a little personal for a few posters in here.  The Mage/Templar debate is an interesting one, but no need to get so personal.  Also, stop with the blanket statements, please.  I know some of the people being addressed in this thread, and some of them are in the middle like me.  Plenty on both sides of the debate aren't being insulting.  

 

It's derailing the thread, so let's not get this locked.  It's fine if folks disagree, but attacking each other is pointless.

 

@Artifice:  I've seen a lot of mage supporters that like Cassandra as Divine as well.  It's usually the more extremists that don't.  I like her the most, because she is dedicated to careful change within the status quo.  On three different characters with three different mindsets (my agnostic dwarf, my Dalish elf, my pro-Chantry warrior,) Cass has been the most reasonable and passionate.  She's my first choice.  I think Leliana hasn't thought much past the few years, and Vivienne is a disaster waiting to happen.  It isn't because I think Vivi would be bad, but that's just too much change.



#728
RobRam10

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Alexius is a living God and his plans are beyong the scope of a mere mortal like Fiona, she's just a tool in the Master's grand plan.


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#729
Drasanil

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Alexius is a living God and his plans are beyong the scope of a mere mortal like Fiona, she's just a tool in the Master's grand plan.

 

I don't always save the mages, but when I do I always recruit Alexius  B)


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#730
Malthier

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You are right :P
Still, no third side in that war.

 

Corypheus is the third side, playing both against each other and making them more desperate



#731
Dean_the_Young

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I have lost track of the number of times I've been accused of condoning rape, torture and baby-killing over the years.

 

I think I would prefer if people just complained about my grammar and punctuation. :whistle:

 

Clearly the first step in opposing the Templar Nazis is to become grammar Nazis instead.


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#732
Hellion Rex

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I find it funny that pretty much most of the templar supporters share some of the following traits:

-support templars
-support Gaspard
-Hate elves and/or non-humans in general
-hate mages
-support Divine Vivienne


Funny how most of the intolerant people share some of the above traits.

Well, you're two for five, in my case. And, actually, I'm pretty sure most "Templar" supporters would have picked Cass over Viv anyways.

#733
Ranadiel Marius

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I find it funny that pretty much most of the templar supporters share some of the following traits:

-support templars
-support Gaspard
-Hate elves and/or non-humans in general
-hate mages
-support Divine Vivienne


Funny how most of the intolerant people share some of the above traits.

Man you are psychic! You got 1/5 right. I don't think anyone else could have guessed that I, a Templar supporter, would support templars! Your powers of forsight are incredible!
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#734
raging_monkey

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Come on guys I'm sure we all have preconceived notions about mage supporters let's Just drop it
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#735
Cobra's_back

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Fiona never made contact with Tevinter. Alexius showed up in order to subvert the Mages into Corypheus' cause and even used Time Magic to arrive before the Inquisitor. Where do you think Tevinter gets it's slaves? Most countries in Thedas have laws against slavery but most of them also break them. "Slavery still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elves lured into ships by the prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? And humans fall prey to this, too. If they're lucky, they end up in Orlais, which has only "servants." Most nobles treat them decently because they are afraid of admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal." - Codex Entry Slavery in the Tevinter Imperium

Also, Alexius was part of a cult. He was lying to the Mages, had no intentions of honoring any such deal and no official support from the Magisterium.

 

 

Yes people ignore laws and sometimes don't pay the price. The point is the law existed in Ferelden. Dragon age makes it clear that Ferelden was different than Tevinter in that way.

 

David Gaider went further to demonstrate this in the comic "Those who Speak". When Isabella drowns a ship full of slaves because she didn't want to get caught with them. So to answer your question where do they get their slaves? They steal them from free nations. Human trafficking happens even if it is against the law.

 

The difference between Ferelden and Tevinter is that in Tevinter it is not a crime.

 

 

Fiona knew Alexius was from Tevinter, and therefore should have known he came from a pro slavery culture. King Alistair/Anora are not pro slavery.

 

 

You do bring up a good point:

 

Fiona was mistreated as a young elf in Orlais, and she may not see the difference between the nations. To her slavery was a form of life. I feel sorry for the mistreatment she incurred, but that doesn't make her a good leader. Her view was tainted by the suffering her suffering. This blinded her I'm sure.

 

The point I was making is she did agree to sell free people into slavery for ten years. This all occurred in Ferelden a free nation. So they clearly broke a law. What you have stated is that she had no faith or respect for this law in Ferelden. Good point, but it doesn't mean they owe her a free ride.

 

 

Your comment: "Also, Alexius was part of a cult. He was lying to the Mages, had no intentions of honoring any such deal and no official support from the Magisterium."

 

 

Correct, and we should have expected as much. He is from a different culture. Dorian stated 50% of Tevinter would have sided with Cory. That is huge. Not all these societies think the same way and that was my point. Cory and Alexius do not see themselves as villains. I was replying to a person who believed slavery was the same as a green card. It could have sounded that way coming out of Alexius because he doesn't see himself as a villain.

 

 

So it explains why Fiona a tortured women may have been easily fooled by Alexius. When Alexius took over Redcliffe she did nothing to stop him, and was still his ally. This is why King Alistair/Anora kicked them out, and ask for damages to be paid. They were very reasonable, and they could have wanted more. I would say to Fiona, "If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas". 

 

 

Fiona is not a reasonable person, but someone who makes Big mistakes because of the abuse she suffered. I would not want this lady as a leader. Others may have seen her suffering and want to give her every chance possible. I get that. Everyone here can be a member of the jury so to speak. The fact that it is not black and white makes it an interesting story. I disband the Templars because I strongly feel it is time for a new way of thinking. Dorian Pavus is an excellent add because he provides so much more insight into another culture.



#736
Cobra's_back

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At this point I might as well use the ignore button. It's obvious nobody will win any argument her end nobody is convincing anybody so why bother?

At this point, I wonder why I bother coming to this site. It's been filled with nothing but vitriol for anyone who doesn't share the majority opinion.

It doesn't have to be that way. I thought the goal Bioware had was that there is "no exact one way path". You can pick either path, and still be a reasonable person.

 

That is the beauty of the game.


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#737
raging_monkey

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It doesn't have to be that way. I thought the goal Bioware had was that there is "no exact one way path". You can pick either path, and still be a reasonable person.

That is the beauty of the game.

this

#738
EmperorSahlertz

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At this point I might as well use the ignore button. It's obvious nobody will win any argument her end nobody is convincing anybody so why bother?

At this point, I wonder why I bother coming to this site. It's been filled with nothing but vitriol for anyone who doesn't share the majority opinion.

It's BSN.. It does that to people. You can either let it take you down, or wade through it. As one of the "OG" Templar supporters, I can tell you, supporting Templars back in the days of recently released DA:O was not fun. Back then it was all the rage to support the mages, and any who dared to support the Templars were child-molesting rapists with a control-freak syndrome.

 

Oh how the times change.

 

But at least once you get through the fanatics, you can actually have a reasonable discussion with those who are left. So we got that going for us.



#739
raging_monkey

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It wasn't all bad as a OG PM I apologize for the sins of my less reasonable compatriots

#740
LOLandStuff

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I actually support mages but I'm not just gonna pamper them and ignore their stupidity while coming up with lame excuses.


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#741
EmperorSahlertz

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It wasn't all bad as a OG PM I apologize for the sins of my less reasonable compatriots

Heh, there is no reason to apologize. I feel I stand vindicated in my conviction, since supporting the Templars are at least considered acceptable these days.



#742
AresKeith

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I actually support mages but I'm not just gonna pamper them and ignore their stupidity while coming up with lame excuses.

 

I support them having better living conditions (similar to City Elves) and partially more freedom (as in better permission to leave the circles every now and then)



#743
raging_monkey

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Heh, there is no reason to apologize. I feel I stand vindicated in my conviction, since supporting the Templars are at least considered acceptable these days.

that And you have good posts

#744
EmperorSahlertz

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that And you have good posts

Oh_stop_it_you_!.png

 

Only when I want to though  :ph34r:



#745
raging_monkey

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I speak only truth

#746
Dean_the_Young

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I support them having better living conditions (similar to City Elves) and partially more freedom (as in better permission to leave the circles every now and then)

 

...I'm sorry, don't you mean that you support the city elves having better living conditions like the Mages?

 

If you're going to distinguish between the amenities of life and personal freedoms, mages are rivaled only by the nobility as far as the former is concerned. For the later... well, I'm sure there are city elves who would feel the grass is greener in even competently run circles.



#747
The Baconer

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...I'm sorry, don't you mean that you support the city elves having better living conditions like the Mages?

 

They probably mean they support improved living conditions for mages just as they support improved living conditions for city Elves.

 

At least, I would assume, because the idea of elevating a group of people to living like city Elves doesn't make much sense.



#748
DuskWanderer

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I find it funny that pretty much most of the templar supporters share some of the following traits:

 

-support templars

-support Gaspard

-Hate elves and/or non-humans in general

-hate mages

-support Divine Vivienne

 

 

Funny how most of the intolerant people share some of the above traits.

Wow, you only have two right, and given that the first one is the defining trait we're talking about...

 

Looks like the true intolerant one is you. 



#749
Kakistos_

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Yes people ignore laws and sometimes don't pay the price. The point is the law existed in Ferelden. Dragon age makes it clear that Ferelden was different than Tevinter in that way.

 

David Gaider went further to demonstrate this in the comic "Those who Speak". When Isabella drowns a ship full of slaves because she didn't want to get caught with them. So to answer your question where do they get their slaves? They steal them from free nations. Human trafficking happens even if it is against the law.

 

The difference between Ferelden and Tevinter is that in Tevinter it is not a crime.

 

 

Fiona knew Alexius was from Tevinter, and therefore should have known he came from a pro slavery culture. King Alistair/Anora are not pro slavery.

 

 

You do bring up a good point:

 

Fiona was mistreated as a young elf in Orlais, and she may not see the difference between the nations. To her slavery was a form of life. I feel sorry for the mistreatment she incurred, but that doesn't make her a good leader. Her view was tainted by the suffering her suffering. This blinded her I'm sure.

 

The point I was making is she did agree to sell free people into slavery for ten years. This all occurred in Ferelden a free nation. So they clearly broke a law. What you have stated is that she had no faith or respect for this law in Ferelden. Good point, but it doesn't mean they owe her a free ride.

 

 

Your comment: "Also, Alexius was part of a cult. He was lying to the Mages, had no intentions of honoring any such deal and no official support from the Magisterium."

 

 

Correct, and we should have expected as much. He is from a different culture. Dorian stated 50% of Tevinter would have sided with Cory. That is huge. Not all these societies think the same way and that was my point. Cory and Alexius do not see themselves as villains. I was replying to a person who believed slavery was the same as a green card. It could have sounded that way coming out of Alexius because he doesn't see himself as a villain.

 

 

So it explains why Fiona a tortured women may have been easily fooled by Alexius. When Alexius took over Redcliffe she did nothing to stop him, and was still his ally. This is why King Alistair/Anora kicked them out, and ask for damages to be paid. They were very reasonable, and they could have wanted more. I would say to Fiona, "If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas". 

 

 

Fiona is not a reasonable person, but someone who makes Big mistakes because of the abuse she suffered. I would not want this lady as a leader. Others may have seen her suffering and want to give her every chance possible. I get that. Everyone here can be a member of the jury so to speak. The fact that it is not black and white makes it an interesting story. I disband the Templars because I strongly feel it is time for a new way of thinking. Dorian Pavus is an excellent add because he provides so much more insight into another culture.

I don't see it that way. Dragon Age makes it clear that the only real difference between  Tevinter and the other countries regarding slavery is that in Tevinter it's more widespread and they are much more up front about it. In DA, even with all the political turmoil and backstabbing in politics after the death of King Cailan, no one bothered to notice that Logain was selling Elves. The codex entry I provided suggest that these instances are not uncommon. Those slaves weren't stolen, they were sold.

 

I grant that Fiona was breaking the law but then so was starting the rebellion itself. Apostasy is a crime punishable by death under Chantry law and Fiona and the Mages had greater concerns than following the letter of the law which for the most part was never meant for them anyway. Ferelden and many other nations claim to be free but they were NEVER free for the Mages. To Fiona and the Mages 10 years in servitude in an environment where their talents would be recognized is a far greater prospect than LIFE in an enclosed space, no family and little personal freedoms with a sword hanging over their necks or death. I don't know about you but if those were my choices I would pick the 10 years.

 

At the point in the story where Fiona made the deal with Alexius, Corypheus was a complete unknown to all except his followers. There is NO WAY that Fiona could have forseen what she was getting into. NO ONE did. Alexius himself was an unknown. How could anyone have forseen or prepared for a Mage using Time Magic? There are plenty of things one could arguably lay at Fiona's feet but you CANNOT blame her for events that were manipulated from the shadows by an ancient Darkspawn Magister and a Mage wielding Time Magic.


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#750
Steelcan

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At the point in the story where Fiona made the deal with Alexius, Corypheus was a complete unknown to all except his followers. There is NO WAY that Fiona could have forseen what she was getting into. NO ONE did. Alexius himself was an unknown. How could anyone have forseen or prepared for a Mage using Time Magic? There are plenty of things one could arguably lay at Fiona's feet but you CANNOT blame her for events that were manipulated from the shadows by an ancient Darkspawn Magister and a Mage wielding Time Magic.

She can still be blamed for joining the Tevinters, you know, the enemies of all White Thedas, the ones that are the reason "Magic exists to serve man" and so forth


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