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[AresKeith]

She can still be blamed for joining the Tevinters, you know, the enemies of all White Thedas, the ones that are the reason "Magic exists to serve man" and so forth

 

Especially when they were already under protection 

[raging_monkey]

Wait black thedas is bad? Did we call somebody lol

[AresKeith]

Wait black thedas is bad? Did we call somebody lol

 

[raging_monkey]

I love you Keith lol

[Kakistos_]

She can still be blamed for joining the Tevinters, you know, the enemies of all White Thedas, the ones that are the reason "Magic exists to serve man" and so forth

Perhaps not everyone thinks Tevinter is "evil". As Dorian demonstrates and even Fenris reluctantly admits, not everyone in Tevinter is the caricature evil slave bleeding Blood Mage that the Chantry would have everyone believe. Tevinter of course, as does every other nation in Thedas, has its faults both major and minor.

[Lady Artifice]

@Artifice:  I've seen a lot of mage supporters that like Cassandra as Divine as well.  It's usually the more extremists that don't.  I like her the most, because she is dedicated to careful change within the status quo.  On three different characters with three different mindsets (my agnostic dwarf, my Dalish elf, my pro-Chantry warrior,) Cass has been the most reasonable and passionate.  She's my first choice.  I think Leliana hasn't thought much past the few years, and Vivienne is a disaster waiting to happen.  It isn't because I think Vivi would be bad, but that's just too much change.

 

Cassandra was my first play through Divine, but that was because I was still thrilling so much over her character, which I hadn't expected to enjoy as much as I did. When she gave me so much approval for my saying she would make make a good Divine, I went, "Okay, Cassandra. If you want the big hat, you can have it. Will a new one do, or would you rather I go back into the Fade and find Justinia's?"

 

I've had all three end up on the throne now, and I actually favor Vivienne. Not for her politics, but for the precedent. Charitable organizations can be disbanded, Chantry laws can be changed, but if a Mage sits on the Sunburst throne? That not only says that Mages are equal to, but capable of being the best of, the rest of Andrastian society. That will not be easy to expunge from history. 

 

Also, she's the only one of the three who enjoys and is adept at politics.  

[CosmicGnosis]

See, I thought that one of the major reasons, among several others that have been discussed to death, that Fiona decided to leave for Tevinter was because it would finally end the war. If the mages leave southern Thedas, a region of the world that fears and hates mages, then the templars would not be "obligated" to hunt them down, and peace would be restored. 

 

And it turns out that Arl Gallagher Wulff had thought the same thing. What went wrong, though, was that Fiona was not contacted by mainstream Tevinter, but rather the Venatori, and the Venatori had no intention of honoring any promises made to her. So I think that Fiona agreed to leave Ferelden for Tevinter in order to finally end the war, and invited Alexius and friends into Redcliffe to seal the deal. And then the Venatori suddenly oust Teagan and start running Redcliffe themselves. Fiona and the mages can't leave without risking retribution from the Venatori, and even if they did manage to flee, where would they go? The templars would surely find them. So yeah, Fiona made a catastrophic mistake, but she was lied to, and I sympathize with her intentions, in the way I understand them at least. 

 

And then Alexius' time magic experiments fail, and Corypheus kills him, "stuff happens", and then Fiona and the mages fight the Inquisition.

I want to elaborate just a little more on the Tevinter alliance. I suspect that Fiona believed a long-term war was hopeless for the mages. Yeah, they could hide in Redcliffe forever, but then they are essentially right back in confinement all over again. What was the point of the rebellion if they end up trapped and surrounded by people who hate them? Alexius probably framed their circumstances in this way, and convinced Fiona that a decade of slavery in Tevinter with the promise of future respect and freedom would be better than hiding in Redcliffe for Maker knows how long, especially when they will be blamed for everything that goes bump in the night. 

 

So Fiona lets the Venatori march into the village, unaware of their true motivations, and then they launch a surprise attack on the Redcliffe leadership. Eventually, Fiona will succumb to manipulation that is more magical in nature. I actually just completed the War Table operation called The Serpent of Nevarra, which involved a Venatori agent using magic to cloud King Markus' judgment. We have, yet again, explicit evidence that the Venatori use magic to brainwash people.

[Steelcan]

I actually just completed the War Table operation called The Serpent of Nevarra, which involved a Venatori agent using magic to cloud King Markus' judgment. We have, yet again, explicit evidence that the Venatori use magic to brainwash people.

No one is denying that its possible she was brainwashed, we are contesting that there is sufficient evidence to support such an assertion beyond reasonable doubt

[Ranadiel Marius]

They probably mean they support improved living conditions for mages just as they support improved living conditions for city Elves.

At least, I would assume, because the idea of elevating a group of people to living like city Elves doesn't make much sense.

Elevating the living conditions of mages doesn't make much sense either since (with the possible exception of Kirkwall) mages live far better than common folk in terms of quality of living. Only thing they are lacking is freedom, which is a separate issue.

No one is denying that its possible she was brainwashed, we are contesting that there is sufficient evidence to support such an assertion beyond reasonable doubt

I would say that there is insufficient evidence even for preponderance of the evidence.

[Hellion Rex]

Perhaps not everyone thinks Tevinter is "evil". As Dorian demonstrates and even Fenris reluctantly admits, not everyone in Tevinter is the caricature evil slave bleeding Blood Mage that the Chantry would have everyone believe. Tevinter of course, as does every other nation in Thedas, has its faults both major and minor.

Doesn't matter what "everyone thinks". She still signed up with the Venatori, the bad Tevinter people.

[The Baconer]

Elevating the living conditions of mages doesn't make much sense either since (with the possible exception of Kirkwall) mages live far better than common folk in terms of quality of living. Only thing they are lacking is freedom, which is a separate issue.

 

It's a question of their status within the larger Circle system. As the Kirkwall and post-Kirkwall periods demonstrated, it was a system no longer concerned for their rights or well-being, nor was it interested in learning why Kirkwall failed in the first place.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This reply is extremely delayed, and for that I apologize. 

 

A lot of mage slaves =/= most mages are slaves.

 

The fact that mages can be slaves in Tevinter does not automatically assure that most mages in Tevinter "envy" the southern circle. Tevinter still celebrates magical ability as gift from the Maker (with no side of "curse"), as opposed to southern Thedas where magical ability is cause for suspicion.

 

To be a mage in Tevinter means a better chance at advancement and privilege, property and political influence. To be a mage in southern Thedas typically means the opposite. 

 

I think you took my meaning incorrectly, Lady. I'm not saying that mage commoners/slaves/Liberati would necessarily want to trade the life they have for that of Circle mages -- after all, hope of rising to the top of the social ladder is what everyone beneath it clings to in that nation, either through their kids or their own magic -- just that they likely would love to have things Circle mages are entitled to: room-and-board, education, healthcare, etc.

 

Think of it this way: the other day I found out that my friend gets free admission to his school's varsity games. I was like "ugh, they would charge for air here at my place if they could." I envy what his school has. I wish my school had it. I would not, however, want to be going to his school.

 

So, again, I found it laughable to decry the Circle life.... in favor of Tevinter slavery.

[Barquiel]

Doesn't matter what "everyone thinks". She still signed up with the Venatori, the bad Tevinter people.

 

I seriously doubt Alexius introduced himself as a Tevinter supremacist working for a darkspawn magister. People didn't even know that the Venatori exist at this point of the story.

[Hellion Rex]

I seriously doubt Alexius introduced himself as a Tevinter supremacist working for a darkspawn magister. People didn't even know that the Venatori exist at this point of the story.

Doesn't change the consequences of the choice that she made.

[Kakistos_]

Doesn't change the consequences of the choice that she made.

Very few people in the world knew who the Venatori and Corypheus were. NO ONE in the world was prepared for their arrival as the Dark Future clearly illistrates. Even less knew about the existence of Time Magic. You can't put everything on Fiona. Being more cautious of betrayal is one thing but preparing for complete unknowns is an impossible standard. You might as well blame the dinosaurs for dying when the meteor hit.

[Br3admax]

She knew they were from Tevinter. That should be enough to say "Nope" and nuke from orbit. 

[LOLandStuff]

 You might as well blame the dinosaurs for dying when the meteor hit.

 

Are you really comparing a chunk of rock to notorious blood mages and slavers?

[MisterJB]

 

C'mon, who could have predicted inviting a foreign faction, carrying enough firepower to fend off the enemies you fear, famous for having enslaved the entire world once and who see non-mages as less than people when you don't even have the authority to do so would lead to them occupying territory and taking advantage of the native population?

 

I mean, really, it totally came out of nowhere. Hell, next time have Orlais come along too. They can fight each other for the right to occupy Redcliff, it will be a party.

 

 

 

[DuskWanderer]

Cassandra was my first play through Divine, but that was because I was still thrilling so much over her character, which I hadn't expected to enjoy as much as I did. When she gave me so much approval for my saying she would make make a good Divine, I went, "Okay, Cassandra. If you want the big hat, you can have it. Will a new one do, or would you rather I go back into the Fade and find Justinia's?"

 

I've had all three end up on the throne now, and I actually favor Vivienne. Not for her politics, but for the precedent. Charitable organizations can be disbanded, Chantry laws can be changed, but if a Mage sits on the Sunburst throne? That not only says that Mages are equal to, but capable of being the best of, the rest of Andrastian society. That will not be easy to expunge from history. 

 

Also, she's the only one of the three who enjoys and is adept at politics.  

 

That is a decent point that Vivienne seems to be the only one who loves politics, but I don't think it goes over well enough. Leliana does enjoy the Game, it's mentioned a few times. Cassandra despises it, but, in a way similar to Gaspard, perhaps that's exactly what the Chantry needs.

[Lady Artifice]

Cassandra despises it, but, in a way similar to Gaspard, perhaps that's exactly what the Chantry needs.

 

It's a charming thought, granted. The idea that the best rulers are those that detest political scheming and live strictly by a profound honor code. That they will do away with all of that nonsense once they take power. It was charming in the Gladiator, when it was proposed that Maximus should rule over Rome, and it's charming in fairy tales when the honorable peasant is crowned King and then lives happily ever after. 

 

I'm not particularly convinced of how realistic it is, but it is charming. 

[Lady Artifice]

No one is denying that its possible she was brainwashed, we are contesting that there is sufficient evidence to support such an assertion beyond reasonable doubt

 

Cunningly phrased, but several people have called the suggestion that she's been mentally compelled by blood magic "desperate" and dismissed the possibility entirely.  

[Hellion Rex]

It's a charming thought, granted. The idea that the best rulers are those that detest political scheming and live strictly by a profound honor code. That they will do away with all of that nonsense once they take power. It was charming in the Gladiator, when it was proposed that Maximus should rule over Rome, and it's charming in fairy tales when the honorable peasant is crowned King and then lives happily ever after. 

 

I'm not particularly convinced of how realistic it is, but it is charming. 

Fair point, but I think a little tough love is exactly what the Chantry needs right now. Leliana was a little too liberal for my liking, and Vivienne...I really don't know what to make of her attempts at reform at the present time. I mean, even with the Inquisitor's support, I found it very very hard to believe that White Chantry would ever elect a mage Divine.

[Hellion Rex]

Cunningly phrased, but several people have called the suggestion that she's been mentally compelled by blood magic "desperate" and dismissed the possibility entirely.  

Touche, but Steel is not one of them.

[Kakistos_]

She knew they were from Tevinter. That should be enough to say "Nope" and nuke from orbit. 

Oh, right. TEVINTER BAD! Going to Tevinter was probably the Mages best chance to end the war peacfully after the Conclave was destroyed. No other nation in Thedas would have given them a better deal. Including Ferelden. The Templars would be mad to assualt Tevinter which isn't under the jurisdiction of the White Chantry and Ferelden would have been hard pressed to defeat the Templars if it came to open conflict. As Alistair himself states in DA2 when question by Hawke and Anders about kicking the Templars out; they are worried about hostilities with Orlais and are still recovering from a Blight. Leaving for Tevinter was the best option for everyone at the time to avoid further conflict.

 

Are you really comparing a chunk of rock to notorious blood mages and slavers?

I'm comparing two catostrophic events that no one foresaw or could have stopped. And not everyone believes that Blood Magic is "evil" nor is slavery limited to Tevinter. Sippin' the Chantry koolaid there? As if they are pure in comparison.

 

 

 

C'mon, who could have predicted inviting a foreign faction, carrying enough firepower to fend off the enemies you fear, famous for having enslaved the entire world once and who see non-mages as less than people when you don't even have the authority to do so would lead to them occupying territory and taking advantage of the native population?

 

I mean, really, it totally came out of nowhere. Hell, next time have Orlais come along too. They can fight each other for the right to occupy Redcliff, it will be a party.

 

Alexius wasn't 'invited', he showed up of his own accord and used Time Magic to do so in order to arrive before the Inquisition. And remember, the only reason the Mages were in that situation in the first place is because the world at large saw tham as less than people. Glass houses.

[The Baconer]

Oh, right. TEVINTER BAD! Going to Tevinter was probably the Mages best chance to end the war peacfully after the Conclave was destroyed. No other nation in Thedas would have given them a better deal.

 

Tevinter never gave them any deal, as Alexius didn't really represent their interests.