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[Lady Artifice]

Fair point, but I think a little tough love is exactly what the Chantry needs right now. Leliana was a little too liberal for my liking, and Vivienne...I really don't know what to make of her attempts at reform at the present time. I mean, even with the Inquisitor's support, I found it very very hard to believe that White Chantry would ever elect a mage Divine.

 

I don't disapprove of Cassandra as a choice for Divine, by any means. She's a moderate by the events of the ending, and she has both a strong sense of integrity and intelligence. I think, eventually, that she'll be utterly miserable in the position but she's a strong enough person to endure the parts that will wear her down. 

 

Before getting to know Vivienne, I would have been just as incredulous about a Mage's chances at becoming Divine as you are. 

 

 

Touche, but Steel is not one of them.

 

 

Acknowledged. 

[Kakistos_]

Tevinter never gave them any deal, as Alexius didn't really represent their interests.

Precisely but NO ONE knew otherwise. Everyone, the Inquisition included, thought the deal was legit. No one could have possibly realized that an Ancient Darkspawn Magister was pulling strings from the shadows. Despite his ties to the Venatori and Corypheus, Alexius was still in fact a Magister from the Imperium, not some random Mage from Tevinter with fancy paper. No one had any reason to believe that he was acting on his own until the trap was sprung.

[Hellion Rex]

 

Before getting to know Vivienne, I would have been just as incredulous about a Mage's chances at becoming Divine as you are. 

 

I know Viv is a good a candidate as any, it's just the mage sitting on the throne that is a little...odd for me. I know that I would more than likely have no issue with the policies she would set, but in the grand scheme, I don't know if Thedas is ready for a mage to be in such a freaking high level position.

[Sifr]

I want to elaborate just a little more on the Tevinter alliance. I suspect that Fiona believed a long-term war was hopeless for the mages. Yeah, they could hide in Redcliffe forever, but then they are essentially right back in confinement all over again. What was the point of the rebellion if they end up trapped and surrounded by people who hate them? Alexius probably framed their circumstances in this way, and convinced Fiona that a decade of slavery in Tevinter with the promise of future respect and freedom would be better than hiding in Redcliffe for Maker knows how long, especially when they will be blamed for everything that goes bump in the night. 

 

So Fiona lets the Venatori march into the village, unaware of their true motivations, and then they launch a surprise attack on the Redcliffe leadership. Eventually, Fiona will succumb to manipulation that is more magical in nature. I actually just completed the War Table operation called The Serpent of Nevarra, which involved a Venatori agent using magic to cloud King Markus' judgment. We have, yet again, explicit evidence that the Venatori use magic to brainwash people.

 

This is my take on what happened as well.

 

I figure that the games timeline goes something along these lines, that in the first few days post-Conclave, the Templars present within the Hinterlands were gearing up for an attack on Redcliffe, thinking the mages were responsible (as most people did). With the formation of the Inquisition (roughly 6 or so days after the destruction of the Conclave), the Templars were recalled suddenly to Val Royeaux to answer this challenge, leaving only deserters behind to wage their own little private war against the Mages. With this temporary reprieve, Fiona learned of the Inquisition and decided to travel to Val Royeaux to attempt to meet with them, hoping to form an alliance and gain another source of protection from the Templars.

 

If Alexius had attempted to make contact with the Rebellion in this timeline, unfortunately, he waited too long until Fiona had other options available to her. Fearing that his master would be displeased to lose the mage army he wanted, Alexius decided to cheat and jump back to 2 days after the blast, at time when things looked most bleak for the Mage Rebellion.

 

Arriving at Redcliffe earlier this time around, Alexius was able to convince her that agreeing to his deal to join the Imperium was the only chance at salvation from the Templars. Around this time Alexius likely seized control of Redcliffe from the Arl, kicking him out of the town. With the formation of the Inquisition and the Templars being recalled to Val Royeaux, Fiona realised that she'd made a horrible mistake.

 

The timeline being something along these lines would explain a few lingering questions, such as;

 

Why Alexius needed to go back in time? - With the Inquisition to provide another option, he wasn't able to convince Fiona to join him.

Fiona's appearance in Val Royeaux? - She either rejected or delayed Alexius' offer, hoping for an alliance with the Inquisition.

The Rifts forming in Redcliffe post-VR? - The result of Alexius punching a hole through time and tossing it in the privy, to paraphrase Dorian.

The change in Fiona's demeanour? - Why she's so confident and self-assured in VR, but clearly miserable and stressed in Redcliffe.

 

At least, that's make take on it?

[The Baconer]

Precisely but NO ONE knew otherwise. Everyone, the Inquisition included, thought the deal was legit. No one could have possibly realized that an Ancient Darkspawn Magister was pulling strings from the shadows. Despite his ties to the Venatori and Corypheus, Alexius was still in fact a Magister from the Imperium, not some random Mage from Tevinter with fancy paper. No one had any reason to believe that he was acting on his own until the trap was sprung.

 

Yes, but that means the arrangement was made in complete ignorance in regards to how Tevinter actually works. Not a very good idea when you're cutting a deal for 10 years of indentured servitude.

[AresKeith]

Yes, but that means the arrangement was made in complete ignorance in regards to how Tevinter actually works. Not a very good idea when you're cutting a deal for 10 years of indentured servitude.

 

Along with gambling the lives of others 

[Mykel54]

Even if Corypheus didn´t exist and Alexius was just a random tevinter magister, his motivations are suspect (like Dorian says: traveling to Ferelden just to get some lackeys). And Fiona was a fool for trusting him, because Alexius just oozes confidence. She already had the support of the monarchy of Ferelden, and the protection of Teagan and his castle to retreat to in case of attack.

 

When the rogue templars attack (probably because Alexius poked and goaded them to attack Redcliff) Fiona decides that rather than fight and risk losing, she would rather give up her followers freedom and become slaves to Tevinter. It looks like Fiona just gave up fighting for mage freedom, putting the fate of her rebellion in the hands of a tevinter slaver, and apparently without any countermeasure to force Alexius to keep up his promises - something to bargain with. Instead, the tranquils are all butchered up by the tevinters, and Alexius starts dismissing Fiona´s requests entirely.

 

Her decision was a giant disaster, even if Corypheus didn´t exist and the only purpose of Alexius was to collect some mage slaves.

[The Baconer]

Along with gambling the lives of others 

 

Yes. Reminds me of Raiden trying to use the souls of Earthrealm fighters to bargain with Quan Chi.

[AresKeith]

Yes. Reminds me of Raiden trying to use the souls of Earthrealm fighters to bargain with Quan Chi.

 

They were already dead so that's different

[Sifr]

Tevinter never gave them any deal, as Alexius didn't really represent their interests.

 

Even if the Magisterium had offered them a genuine deal, Tevinter has rules that slaves can't be part of the military, so altering the deal to conscript the Mages into military service would have probably been grounds for that contract being declared null and void?

 

Before anyone calls her a moron for accepting a fake deal, it's not as if she'd know the nitty-gritty details of the slave trade in the Imperium and what laws and restrictions they have in place? Even if it was not offered by the Magisterium, the original terms as given to her would  have been legal in Tevinter, but Alexius playing on her ignorance to demand illegal concessions is what made it completely bogus.

[MisterJB]

Alexius wasn't 'invited', he showed up of his own accord and used Time Magic to do so in order to arrive before the Inquisition.

 

Unless Alexius teleported himself and all his forces inside Redcliff's walls, someone had to open the gate for him.

Given that Fiona was the sole beneficiary of his presence there, I'd say she is suspect number one.

 

 

 

And remember, the only reason the Mages were in that situation in the first place is because the world at large saw tham as less than people. Glass houses.

I could point out a ton of other reasons why they were in that situation but there is no need since I wasn't even throwing stones.

Merely pointing out the fact that the odds of a Magister respecting the authority of a normal person without a blade at his throat are infinitesimal. Hence, why anyone would have been able to predict Teagan would have been housted and Redcliff ocuppied.

 

 

[Deztyn]

I know Viv is a good a candidate as any, it's just the mage sitting on the throne that is a little...odd for me. I know that I would more than likely have no issue with the policies she would set, but in the grand scheme, I don't know if Thedas is ready for a mage to be in such a freaking high level position.

 

Yeah.

 

I love the idea of Viv as Divine.

 

I like what she does in the epilogue.

 

I just can't imagine playing a character that would both approve of her politics and be willing to help set that precedent.

[Sifr]

Unless Alexius teleported himself and all his forces inside Redcliff's walls, someone had to open the gate for him.

Given that Fiona was the sole beneficiary of his presence there, I'd say she is suspect number one.

 

Well, Dorian and the Inquisitor are transported across space from the throne room to the dungeons during their jump into the Dark Future. Might not be a coincidence that a Rift forms right in front of the Gate and in the Chantry, as if the Veil suddenly found itself torn in those locations somehow?

[The Baconer]

I know Viv is a good a candidate as any, it's just the mage sitting on the throne that is a little...odd for me. I know that I would more than likely have no issue with the policies she would set, but in the grand scheme, I don't know if Thedas is ready for a mage to be in such a freaking high level position.

 

I don't think they are, but that's good. It's the kind of shock that Thedas needs right now.

[MisterJB]

Well, Dorian and the Inquisitor are transported across space from the throne room to the dungeons during their jump into the Dark Future. Might not be a coincidence that a Rift forms right in front of the Gate and in the Chantry, as if the Veil suddenly found itself torn in those locations somehow?

 

The tone of this portion of the game is basically:

"That was not the deal.

I am altering the deal. Pray that I do alter it further."

 

If Alexius can just teleport inside the walls an armed force numerous enough to take over Redcliff, there is no need for a deal or sending infiltrators to sway Fiona. It's an invasion and occupation, plain and simple and the tone would be entirely different.

 

 

[Br3admax]

Oh, right. TEVINTER BAD! Going to Tevinter was probably the Mages best chance to end the war peacfully after the Conclave was destroyed. No other nation in Thedas would have given them a better deal. Including Ferelden. The Templars would be mad to assualt Tevinter which isn't under the jurisdiction of the White Chantry and Ferelden would have been hard pressed to defeat the Templars if it came to open conflict. As Alistair himself states in DA2 when question by Hawke and Anders about kicking the Templars out; they are worried about hostilities with Orlais and are still recovering from a Blight. Leaving for Tevinter was the best option for everyone at the time to avoid further conflict.

 

For starters, yes, Tevinter by all showings is bad. They have a history of being "bad" and the last thing you should do is give them sovereign territory of another nation. Second, how is inviting a foreign power to take over an arldom the most peaceful way to do anything besides start an Exalted March? You know, just like the one a very similar scenario actually started. Ferelden already gave them a better deal, especially considering going to Tevinter would only provoke the rest of Thedas to turn against them, just like everyone else actually in world thinks. The Templars would be mad to assault anyone as they aren't a large enough force to combat Ferelden or Tevinter. What the hell are you talking about? Ferelden would be hard pressed in fighting shambles of an order that has been through a war and the Breach? And while plenty of people outside of the south think so, the Chantry is not a part of Orlais, so fighting the Templars, which are not even a part of the Chantry any longer, will not lead to anything but a swift victory for Ferelden. 

 

All in all, this was the absolute dumbest plan I can think of to do anything besides die, the only thing that I can possibly think that could top it is outright say they also eat children and worship the Elder One. 

[Hellion Rex]

The tone of this portion of the game is basically:

"That was not the deal.

I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it further."

FTFY

[Sifr]

The tone of this portion of the game is basically:

"That was not the deal.

I am altering the deal. Pray that I do alter it further."

 

If Alexius can just teleport inside the walls an armed force numerous enough to take over Redcliff, there is no need for a deal or sending infiltrators to sway Fiona. It's an invasion and occupation, plain and simple and the tone would be entirely different.

 

Yeah but as Dorian says, the magic is wildly unpredictable and dangerous. It makes me think that you can't send too many people through time at once otherwise it'll go horribly wrong, so sending an army back to conquer somewhere or change the course of a battle would never work.

 

My suspicion is that the Venatori have infiltrated and been imbedded within the Rebellion for some time, gathering up support and attempting to sway them slowly to their cause, long before the destruction of the Conclave took place. Alexius was just too slow to press his advantage and win the deal the first time around, forcing him to go back and try again.

 

Alexius being the only one to go back, but having Venatori already in Redcliffe, would explain how they were able to take over so quickly and quietly.

[MisterJB]

Yeah but as Dorian says, the magic is wildly unpredictable and dangerous. It makes me think that you can't send too many people through time at once otherwise it'll go horribly wrong, so sending an army back to conquer somewhere or change the course of a battle would never work.

 

My suspicion is that the Venatori have infiltrated and been imbedded within the Rebellion for some time, gathering up support and attempting to sway them slowly to their cause, long before the destruction of the Conclave took place. Alexius was just too slow to press his advantage and win the deal the first time around, forcing him to go back and try again.

 

Alexius being the only one to go back, but having Venatori already in Redcliffe, would explain how they were able to take over so quickly and quietly.

 

I'm not sure what we are arguing right now.

Yes, Venatori infiltrated the rebellion and pushed them towards the alliance. Fiona still had to have been the one to open the gates for them.
 

[MisterJB]

I like one of the Inquisitor's possible responses:

"The Divine's corpse is not even cold and you have already sword allegiance to the Imperium?"

 

[Sifr]

I'm not sure what we are arguing right now.

Yes, Venatori infiltrated the rebellion and pushed them towards the alliance. Fiona still had to have been the one to open the gates for them.

 

Wait, do you mean open the gates metaphorically or literally (or both)...?

 

I was saying that you don't need to teleport an army inside if you already have them in there, ready for you to give the word. Fiona agreeing to the deal was merely a way to gain legitimacy for their takeover.

 

Doing it by force, which would probably risk killing the very army they wanted in the first place.

[AresKeith]

I like one of the Inquisitor's possible responses:

"The Divine's corpse is not even cold and you have already sword allegiance to the Imperium?"

 

 

And people say the Inquisitor can't be snarky or sarcastic

[leaguer of one]

They were already dead so that's different

and the fact they came bakc alive in the next game had no point at all?

[AresKeith]

and the fact they came bakc alive in the next game had no point at all?

 

Ultimately it didn't

[DuskWanderer]

It's a charming thought, granted. The idea that the best rulers are those that detest political scheming and live strictly by a profound honor code. That they will do away with all of that nonsense once they take power. It was charming in the Gladiator, when it was proposed that Maximus should rule over Rome, and it's charming in fairy tales when the honorable peasant is crowned King and then lives happily ever after. 

 

I'm not particularly convinced of how realistic it is, but it is charming. 

 

In Rome, military superiority was considered important to have a hand in politics. There are many tales of Senators ripping off their clothes to expose their war scars.