811 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

... so why does she stay with him if you save the templars? She hates the idea of the Venatori, the time magic, the Elder One... all of it. Granted, she only learns about these things because of the Inquisition. Without it, Fiona seems to be at the mercy of Alexius and his time magic illusions. 

 

So I don't think Fiona is as dumb as some people like to argue. I think she and the mages are simply trapped in a massive illusion created by the Venatori. I wish that we could hear her reasons for fighting us during In Your Heart Shall Burn. That could have cleared up a lot of confusion.

I was under the impression that the mages were put under blood magic mind control or brainwashed.

 

 

All the mages in Redcliffe seem to place the blame/credit for the decision specifically on Fiona. "I can't believe the Grand Enchanter would do this!" is usually the response when they are asked for their perspective on the subject.

Yeah, I pretty much remember seeing the lower ranked mages we talk to blame Fiona.  It was one of the reasons why I never choose to ally with the mages and conscript them as you could not remove Fiona from power as the leader of the rebel mages.

[SgtSteel91]

Are we sure that Fiona was the only one to make the decision to ally with Tevinter? Did she not put that up for a vote? A vote, we should realize, that could have been hijacked by secret Venatori agents posing as southern mages?

 

The way she describes it, those Venatori agents disguised as Mage refugees were spreading dissent and pushed her into making the deal. Like those agents maybe spread enough fear into Fiona and a majority of the Mages that they took the deal (sure most of the Mages you talk to in Redcliff aren't happy with the deal but they may be the minority of the hundred of Mages that are said to be in Redcliff). Similar to the scaring Clarel and the majority of the Orlesian Wardens with a fake Calling so they listen to a Magister's plan for a Demon army, when there are Wardens who don't like the plan but follow it anyway.

[Steelcan]

the rank and file mages are likely not brainwashed by anything beyond the drivel that Fiona peddles.  And we don't see much of a mage leadership outside Fiona as there is no existing hierarchy as there is in the templar order.

 

The Venatori are also not brainwashed by Corypheus, they follow Calpernia who is not yet a prisoner of Corypheus.  So there's little reason to think he's influencing the Redcliffe mages if he's not manipulating the Venatori.

[CosmicGnosis]

If you anti-Fiona guys are right, then this might actually be a case of bad writing. It makes absolutely no sense to me that she just follows the Venatori for no other reason than that she is a moron. As I've already said, she hated everything she learned about Alexius' plot during In Hushed Whispers. She would have never willingly followed him after those revelations. 

 

So why does she do it if you save the templars instead? Surely she would know of Corypheus by that point. He's leading the damn attack! Why would she fight to destroy the Inquisition and help a darkspawn become a god? It's insanity.

[Steelcan]

If you anti-Fiona guys are right, then this might actually be a case of bad writing. It makes absolutely no sense to me that she just follows the Venatori for no other reason than that she is a moron. As I've already said, she hated everything she learned about Alexius' plot during In Hushed Whispers. She would have never willingly followed him after those revelations. 

 

So why does she do it if you save the templars instead? Surely she would know of Corypheus by that point. He's leading the damn attack! Why would she fight to destroy the Inquisition and help a darkspawn become a god? It's insanity.

Because she is

 

A. spineless

B. has no alternative (or thinks she has none)

C. has a miraculous conversion to the venatori viewpoint

D. was brainwashed/influenced with blood magic

E. was secretly Venatori the whole time

F. ____

 

take your pick.  I'm inclined to believe A and B given the lack of evidence for D

[SgtSteel91]

Why couldn't they have made it brainwashing? It's what happens with the Templars if you side with the Mages. Or maybe the majority of Templars did like the Red stuff, or wanted to get back at the Mages or the Chantry, or whatever and the rest of them were forced fed Red Lyrium until they turned into mindless Behemoths or Horrors (or just straight up executed). Why make the oppressed side unsympathetic and create a narrative that they somehow deserve to be oppressed (like they do with the Elves).

[CosmicGnosis]

Wouldn't she rather die than help Corypheus remake/destroy the world? It doesn't make any sense to me!!! My mind is figuratively breaking trying to connect her reactions during In Hushed Whispers with her actions during In Your Heart Shall Burn.

[Steelcan]

Wouldn't she rather die than help Corypheus remake/destroy the world? It doesn't make any sense to me!!! My mind is figuratively breaking trying to connect her reactions during In Hushed Whispers with her actions during In Your Heart Shall Burn.

not necessarily, she's already proven incredibly responsive to imaginary threats, I can only imagine how fast she'd fold when faced with him directly

[Steelcan]

Why couldn't they have made it brainwashing? It's what happens with the Templars if you side with the Mages.

 

Or maybe the majority of Templars did like the Red stuff, or wanted to get back at the Mages or the Chantry, or whatever and the rest of them were forced fed Red Lyrium until they turned into mindless Behemoths or Horrors (or just straight up executed).

the templars aren't brainwashed, they are force fed red lyrium which either drives them mad and susceptible to Corypheus or they are killed.  Its an addiction that is being used against them.

[CosmicGnosis]

Yeah, imaginary threats, especially when reality is almost literally bending and changing around Redcliffe. 

[SgtSteel91]

not necessarily, she's already proven incredibly responsive to imaginary threats, I can only imagine how fast she'd fold when faced with him directly

 

Which is really mindboggling if you read the Calling where she was strongly against allying with the Architect, who was all but said to be like Corypheus. She was a Grey Warden. It's bad writing that they make her attack you at Haven.

[Steelcan]

Which is really mindboggling if you read the Calling where she was strongly against allying with the Architect, who was all but said to be like Corypheus. She was a Grey Warden. It's bad writing that they make her attack you at Haven.

not really.

 

her in game portrayal is of a person who is incredibly timid and well beyond borderline incompetent.  I chalk it up to differences in approach from the book vs the game, she's not the first character to suffer such a fate

[SgtSteel91]

the templars aren't brainwashed, they are force fed red lyrium which either drives them mad and susceptible to Corypheus or they are killed.  Its an addiction that is being used against them.

 

Ok so why do the Templars get explanation but they don't have it so the Mages are "driven mad of susecptible to Corypheus" with Blood Magic or Demons or even Red Lyrium by the Venatori?

[CosmicGnosis]

So this is what we've come to. Bad writing for the mages, and templars are innocent victims.

 

 

Maker forbid that both sides deserve destruction, or that both are victims. 

[SgtSteel91]

not really.

 

her in game portrayal is of a person who is incredibly timid and well beyond borderline incompetent.  I chalk it up to differences in approach from the book vs the game, she's not the first character to suffer such a fate

 

So can we agree that she's being OOC from her portrayals in the Calling and Asunder, where she's not timid and deserving of her title as Grand Enchanter?

[Steelcan]

Ok so why do the Templars get explanation but they don't have it so the Mages are "driven mad of susecptible to Corypheus" with Blood Magic or Demons or even Red Lyrium by the Venatori?

because there's not enough substantive evidence to support that they were brainwashed or leashed with red lyrium

[Steelcan]

So this is what we've come to. Bad writing for the mages, and templars are innocent victims.

 

 

Maker forbid that both sides deserve destruction, or that both are victims. 

neither side comes out looking good, the mages are morons and half of the templar order worked for the bad guy

[Steelcan]

Yeah, imaginary threats, especially when reality is almost literally bending and changing around Redcliffe. 

there is no evidence of Alexius being able to distort reality itself.  He can manipulate time slightly, but I doubt he can conjure an entire army of templars or make Fiona forget that she's being give protection by Ferelden already

[Master Warder Z_]

neither side comes out looking good, the mages are morons and half of the templar order worked for the bad guy

Least the rank and file have the excuse of being driven by frevor and brotherhood.

The officers were just cancer

[CosmicGnosis]

I'm trying to preserve the plot's integrity. If Fiona willingly fights the Inquisition, then BioWare overlooked something and story is broken. We really need a definitive statement on this from the writers. 

[SgtSteel91]

because there's not enough substantive evidence to support that they were brainwashed or leashed with red lyrium

 

This is meta, now. Why couldn't the writes put in substantial evidence that they were brainwashed or leashed with Red Lyrium like they do with the Templars? Why make the Mages morons who chose their fate and the Templars deceived and brainwashed?

[Master Warder Z_]

This is meta, now. Why couldn't the writes put in substantial evidence that they were brainwashed or leashed with Red Lyrium like they do with the Templars? Why make the Mages morons who chose their fate and the Templars deceived and brainwashed?

Because the Templars are the people you should side with?

[Steelcan]

I'm trying to preserve the plot's integrity. If Fiona willingly fights the Inquisition, then BioWare overlooked something and story is broken. We really need a definitive statement on this from the writers. 

Well Godspeed to you then, because you have a lot of work to do

[Steelcan]

This is meta, now. Why couldn't the writes put in substantial evidence that they were brainwashed or leashed with Red Lyrium like they do with the Templars? Why make the Mages morons who chose their fate and the Templars deceived and brainwashed?

they may have felt that there was substantial evidence for a particualr view, they may have wanted to keep it open for teh speculationz, or maybe Z is right and we were supposed to go Templar, Maker knows they have the better storyline

[The Baconer]

This is meta, now. Why couldn't the writes put in substantial evidence that they were brainwashed or leashed with Red Lyrium like they do with the Templars? Why make the Mages morons who chose their fate and the Templars deceived and brainwashed?

 

If a Templar was at Therinfal in the first place, they were aware that the Lord Seeker advocated abandoning the common people and establishing the Order as an independent power, and decided they were okay with that.