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[myahele]

"Just following orders" Templar soldier #667

[Br3admax]

While both Fiona and Meredith were women in leadership roles put into impossible decisions, the difference is that under Fiona was not the hardline tyrant that kept order through cracking the whip, as Meredith was for nearly two decades, even before she went nuts from Red Lyrium?

Great. What does this have to do with the point I was making? Fiona hasn't been a sterling leader either, but here you are coming up with an excuse for every dumb decision she's made. They claimed Meredith was a tyrant, and you ate it up. They claim Fiona was an idiot, and you rejected it like it was under a heat lamp. 

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with how I'm pro-Mage in general, I just don't buy all this hate for the character, it comes across as obvious scapegoating?

Considering I'm, again, pro-mage and this is about you blaming other mages, that has nothing to do with the point I'm making. The point is, as it is above, you picking and choosing what you think is valid based on the circumstance. They'd have you believe Meredith is a psychopath, and that's all good and valid, but Fiona can't be unfit for her role and inadequate in every way, because that's just too much hate. It's all the other mages fault. 

 

 

 

Err, did you not hear what they said when you enter Redcliffe, she's referred to as being the former leader of the Rebellion. Pretty obvious that she's not in charge anymore and Alexius is?

False. She was called the Former Grand Enchanter. Maybe you need to hear what was said in Redcliffe. Besides, they aren't "Rebel Mages" any longer. They are property of the glorious Imperium Tevinter. 

 

 

 

 

The Arl's men and the rebellion were seperate, his agreement was that they were in the village, nowhere else? When Teagan met with Alexius to discuss taking the Rebellion out of his arling, the Venatori performed a coup and seized the castle? The first the Rebellion probably heard of the takeover of Redcliffe castle was when the Arl walked out of town with his tail between his legs?

No. The Rebel Mages allowed them into Redcliffe, and they took it over, which is why Alistair and Aurora then proceeded to expel them from Ferelden. Literally no one but Fiona and her underlings willingly work with Tevinter. If it was because Eamon allowed Tevinter into Redcliffe, the mages would not be in as much trouble as they are, and Ferelden wouldn't be barred to them. 

But again, the Mages were never inside the castle, they were in the village?

 

As it stands, they do have a wall between them and the Templars but judging from some of the other forts in the area that have already been blasted apart by the fighting, it's likely not going to stand up to a prolonged assault? Aside from that wall and wooden palisades, they're as defended as Haven was, so any Templar attack would easily overwhelm them?

The entire village IS a castle. And to get to the mages, the Templars would have to lay ALL of Redcliffe under siege. Teagan wouldn't just allow that to happen. 

 

Is it any wonder why they're so scared?

No. Mages have always been a cowardly, us-or-them lot when the plot demands. Just like anyone else. The wonder is in why you, or anyone else for that matter, can't see that.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hence, he was failing to live up to the templars' duty.

It depends.

If it was done under holy mandate as the Lord Seeker stated then it was a higher calling, if it was done for tactical purpose as the one Templar in the courtyard suggested then it had purpose.

Unfortunately it had none of those things.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It depends.

If it was done under holy mandate as the Lord Seeker stated then it was a higher calling, if it was done for tactical purpose as the one Templar in the courtyard suggested then it had purpose.

Unfortunately it had none of those things.

 

Are you actually trying to defend the reasonableness of the actions of the Envy demon? 

[Master Warder Z_]

"Just following orders" Templar soldier #667

Pretty much.

Nothing wrong with that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"Just following orders" Templar soldier #667

 

Dunno if this is tongue-in-cheek or not, but, I find it really disingenuous when civilians mock soldiers for following their orders.

[The Baconer]

Dunno if this is tongue-in-cheek or not, but, I find it really disingenuous when civilians mock soldiers for following their orders.

 

Why would it be disingenuous within the context?

[Master Warder Z_]

Are you actually trying to defend the reasonableness of the actions of the Envy demon?

No I'm pointing out that had it not been a envy demon those actions would be of a entirely different perspective and under differing scrutiny.

[raging_monkey]

Dunno if this is tongue-in-cheek or not, but, I find it really disingenuous when civilians mock soldiers for following their orders.

so we should praise them unconditionally?

[EmperorSahlertz]

so we should praise them unconditionally?

No, but you should understand that a soldier following orders, USUALLY doesn't know the larger scope and ramifications of said orders. Look at Thom Rainier's men for instance.

[Master Warder Z_]

so we should praise them unconditionally?

It wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to this generation

[raging_monkey]

No, but you should understand that a soldier following orders, USUALLY doesn't know the larger scope and ramifications of said orders. Look at Thom Rainier's men for instance.

understand completely but I enjoy criticism

[Sifr]

Great. What does this have to do with the point I was making? Fiona hasn't been a sterling leader either, but here you are coming up with an excuse for every dumb decision she's made. They claimed Meredith was a tyrant, and you ate it up. They claim Fiona was an idiot, and you rejected it like it was under a heat lamp.

 

The point was that I'm not arguing that Meredith had a tough job in Kirkwall, just drawing comparisons to the likely problems that Fiona had leading the rebellion, because no-one could agree what they were going to do with their freedom, or how to deal with the Templars threatening to come to kill them?

 

The difference is that she was a tyrant because she was willing to make Mages that had passed their Harrowings be made Tranquil against Chantry Law, actively encouraged her Templars to fuel their distrust of magic, kicked Samson out for having compromised moral integrity, simply because he passed love letters for a mage, but allowed Alrik and others to rape as they please without their crimes being answered?

 

Considering I'm, again, pro-mage and this is about you blaming other mages, that has nothing to do with the point I'm making. The point is, as it is above, you picking and choosing what you think is valid based on the circumstance. They'd have you believe Meredith is a psychopath, and that's all good and valid, but Fiona can't be unfit for her role and inadequate in every way, because that's just too much hate. It's all the other mages fault.

 

Considering you're putting words into my mouth when I never mentioned Meredith previously, nor do I actually think she was a psychopath, just extremely overzealous and tryannical, I fail to see what relevance that even has?

 

If we're really assigning blame, then Fiona was as responsible as everyone else for what happened at Redcliffe and Alexius taking over? I've never said that she didn't have her part to play, just that the accusations that she's a senile, doddering old woman who's responsible for every single thing going wrong from the Tevinter's taking over to the disappearance of Thedas' second moon, come across as particularly venomous and overblown?

 

False. She was called the Former Grand Enchanter. Maybe you need to hear what was said in Redcliffe. Besides, they aren't "Rebel Mages" any longer. They are property of the glorious Imperium Tevinter.

 

Yes, I know she was called the former Grand Enchanter, but she's still referred by that honouriffic at other times, so I used it because everyone else did, even if it's technically not true anymore? Maybe you need to pay attention as well, weren't you supposed to be proving that she's the one in charge still?

 

No. The Rebel Mages allowed them into Redcliffe, and they took it over, which is why Alistair and Aurora then proceeded to expel them from Ferelden. Literally no one but Fiona and her underlings willingly work with Tevinter. If it was because Eamon allowed Tevinter into Redcliffe, the mages would not be in as much trouble as they are, and Ferelden wouldn't be barred to them.

 

From what the game tells us, while the Rebels did invite the Tevinters into Redcliffe to begin talks, we don't know Teagan's involvement, but considering that he found himself kicked out of his own castle, a fair assumption is that he invited them into the castle to begin discussions and was overthrown?

 

The entire village IS a castle. And to get to the mages, the Templars would have to lay ALL of Redcliffe under siege. Teagan wouldn't just allow that to happen.

 

The entire village's defenses are a single wall and a wooden fence. Or do you not remember how easily the Undead and the Darkspawn managed to overrun the town back during the Fifth Blight back when it was just the wooden fence? Even if they upgraded the defenses by throwing up that stone wall, it's still not enough to keep out a legion of Templars knocking at the gates.

 

Redcliffe's strength lies in it's actual castle which is meant to be impregnable, the village is not. Heck, most of the buildings are made out of wood probably because they're the first things to be destroyed during any time the castle is besieged, so no-one thinks it's worthwhile building anything too permanent, when it's easier to just rebuild?

 

Plus "Teagan wouldn't allow that to happen?" Teagan is gone, he's not even there anymore? After he's been thrown out on his backside, forced to head to Denerim to try and get help from the crown to retake his lands, I don't think he's particularly involved in what goes on in the town?

 

No. Mages have always been a cowardly, us-or-them lot when the plot demands. Just like anyone else. The wonder is in why you, or anyone else for that matter, can't see that.

 

Relevancy? How are the Templars any different, or the Dalish Elves, or anyone else? What exactly is your point?

[CosmicGnosis]

Nope. Can't do it. Not buying it. 

 

Fiona would never go along with Corypheus. Never. It would contradict everything she believes. I also seriously doubt that she would say, "Oh yes, Alexius. I want you to march into Redcliffe and throw out Teagan. I might even help you do it!"

 

No. Just no. 

[CosmicGnosis]

These are the important questions:

 

1. If the player does not complete In Hushed Whispers, do the Venatori influence Fiona and the mages through blood magic?

 

* If the answer is "No", then:

 

2. Is Fiona's behavior during In Your Heart Shall Burn out-of-character, and thus a failure of the writers?

[raging_monkey]

It's a bit of both poorly explained and alleged inverse manipulation.... Personally I say TIME MAGIC!!!!!

[Sunnie]

It's a bit of both poorly explained and alleged inverse manipulation.... Personally I say TIME MAGIC!!!!!

Which is funny, because that's exactly what happened!

[raging_monkey]

Which is funny, because that's exactly what happened!

Hey time magic is cool love the font colour btw

[CosmicGnosis]

The more I think about this, the more it drives me insane. Fiona would not support a darkspawn magister bent on turning himself into a god. It's hilarious that people even think she would.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Nope. Can't do it. Not buying it. 

 

Fiona would never go along with Corypheus. Never. It would contradict everything she believes. I also seriously doubt that she would say, "Oh yes, Alexius. I want you to march into Redcliffe and throw out Teagan. I might even help you do it!"

 

No. Just no. 

The way I see it, Alexius did it so that the mages would have no choice but to remain with the Venatori, lest with now having no protection. After all, if they leave the alliance with the Venatori, they are now at the mercy of a Ferelden now angry with the mages. To the mages, Alexius is now the only one that offers them protection now that the monarchy is against them. They could stay with him and remain protected or leave and face the now angered monarchy.

 

And guess what? That's exactly what happens if you side with the mages. Once Alexius is stopped, the Ferelden monarchy exiles the mages which is probably what Alexius intended.

 

Also, I think the devs did it so that more people would have a reason to side with the templars. After all, Gaider himself outright expressed annoyance that people seemed to side with the mages in previous games almost by default. However, polls for this game clearly show that hasn't changed with around 2/3 of players siding with the mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The more I think about this, the more it drives me insane. Fiona would not support a darkspawn magister bent on turning himself into a god. It's hilarious that people even think she would.

People just need another excuse to hate on the mages. When has someone pro-mage ever suggested the mages aren't brainwashed?

[raging_monkey]

Welcome to another bsn mage-templar my BS smells better than yours "debate

[Master Warder Z_]

Blasted robes acting like their innocent.

Oh ho they'd have you believe that they have been forced into the position, but they made a choice.

Let them reap the whirlwind I say.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I wouldn't say the mages are brainwashed, more like stuck in a corner once the inquisition has the templars join, probably thought was no way out

[Master Warder Z_]

The more I think about this, the more it drives me insane. Fiona would not support a darkspawn magister bent on turning himself into a god. It's hilarious that people even think she would.

It's the narrative we are given.