76 réponses à ce sujet

[Eudaemonium]

No, mental resist and physical resist are not %-based. They are a number (capped at 100) that can be modified by various effects (enemy rank, talents, etc.) Even with my current DWW, who has a phys.res. of approximately 97, I still get knocked down a fair amount - notably by Ogres. However, Ogre's charge attack while not *always* a knockdown, seems to be insanely hard to resist (though it *is* possible). I can onyl presume it has a very high resistance check. I tend to be immune to knockdown effects like those of Fireball the vast majority of the time. However, as a Templar, my character also has high spell-immunity.

[ericsa]

Metal Mills wrote...

I wanna start a new character and was wondering if a duel weapons
warrior is a good pick? It's either than or a Two-Handed warrior. Whats
best? What are the pros/cons of a duel wielder?

I'm playing a DW warrior on my third playthrough and I like it alot. I've played a two-handed one before but it's not nearly as fun. Loving it so far!

I'm going all out for damage so I'm using Keening Blade and Starfang with grandmaster elemental runes

[ericsa]

Babaghanouj wrote...

It goes without saying (hence I didn't say it) that you can't use a shield while DW...it also goes without saying that using a shield you can use those abilities...I guess now it's been said lol.

The "stupid" comment is unwarranted and unappreciated. Starting to remember why I infrequently post in forums. Someone's always itching to belittle your opinion.

Sounds like a crappy warrior to me. Why not use alistair as tank and go fullout damage dealer?

[Eudaemonium]

m14567 wrote...


I can certainly attest to the 100 physical resistance is not equal to knockdown immunity. Ogre's chain ram you and I don't recall ever resisting. Even more of a problem is facing a dragon. Even with 100 physical resistance the high dragon was tough for me because my dw warrior kept getting knocked back or chewed up. Even the various overwhelm capable enemies strike with pretty alarming regularity but those are rarely such a big deal.

Perhaps going out on a limb here but, from the best I can tell, level seems far more of a factor for resisting these attacks than physical resistance.

However with that said, a dw warrior, when he remains upright, certainly deals out impressive damage.

Resisting Ogre's Ram is quite rare. And its not so much a full-on resist as a 'you get pushed back but don't fall over'. Similar to when Dragon's kick you and you skid back. Still, it is far from a common occurence even at levels 24-5 with nigh-100 resist. I've never defended against a Dragon's Wing Buffet.

Starfang and the Keening Blade with elemental runes is the main reaosn I went DWW in the first place. Stupid Warrior-only weapons.

[GeorgeZip]

DW warriors rock big time. Mine tanked as well as a shield spec warrior because anything standing in front of it dies fast and he never loses agro. He only took like 3 injuries on nightmare mode. It's real noticeable when fighting a Revenant, the fight was over fairly quick. The protection you lose from the shield is made up for by how much less damage you take by targets dying fast.



I left the Dual-Swing skill active and had Wynne use Haste. This saved stamina for all the active skills. If Wynne wasn't in the group I activated Flurry and the Dual-Swing. With a 3-socket weapon in each hand, the damage is impressive.



Haven't tried a 2 hander but that swing animation is so slow its hard to imagine they are as good. But I don't know till I try it.

[Haplose]

LarryFine wrote...

I have to disagree.  The DWW  is the most powerful warrior in the game because its the jack of all trades.    The s&s does have better defense but thats because it takes 3 times longer  for a s&s to kill anything.  The 2h warrior doesn't have more utility it simply has indomitable.

No, it also has Stunning Blows (50% to stun on a critical hit... which are frequent), Pommel Strike (Knockdown/Interrupt) and 2H Sweep (aoe Knockdown + damage). Frequently 1-3 enemies after Sweep are stunned.
Combined with Champion Superiority WarCry I can hold large groups of enemies perma-stunlocked till they are dead.
A Dual-wielder certainly can't do this.

And Indomitable is simply awesome. More on that later.

I intend to obtain a physical  resistance of 100 eliminating knockdowns that require a physical resistance check and cold and flame spells that cause knockdowns.  This is easily done with the Rock-Knocker which gives +25 physical resistance for around 7 gold from Gorim, a grandmaster hale rune which gives +25 physical resistance and  can be bought from Owen for around 10 gold and one that can be stolen piotin at the proving grounds.  The dead head c harge from the high dragon adds 20, andruil's blessing adds 10 and the seal of red rat adds 10.  It should be obvious that getting up to 100 physical resistance isn't a difficult task and this removes part of the advantage of both the s&s and 2 h warrior since both boast immunity to knockdowns. 

Depending on whats important you can alter which items you use to get up to 100 physical resistance.  The two weapon runes and Andruil's blessing by themselves will take my character up to 95.  The life giver ring gives +10 con and each point into con = .5 physical resistance so there's 100 physical resistance right there.  Toss on The spellward and key to the city to complete the outfit.

No, you don't eliminate Knockdowns with 100 Physical Resistance. My 100 Physical Resistance Rogue was still knocked around and stunned left and right. Like others have said, it's not a flat % resistance like Magic Resistance.
Even upgraded Shield Wall doesn't eliminate all knockdowns, as you're still getting knocked down by Fireballs, Earthquakes, Blizzards, Greases and such. You're also getting stunned by a number of effects.

But with Indomitable you're immune to them all! (well, except Overwhelms and grabs).
A Dual Weapon Warrior with 100 Physical Resistance can't compare.

[Haplose]

GeorgeZip wrote...
Haven't tried a 2 hander but that swing animation is so slow its hard to imagine they are as good. But I don't know till I try it.

Well, just spam special moves.They are independent of the swing speed.
They are a bit slow starters, but they get real good around level 10-12 provided that you alrady have both Sunders, 2H Sweep (lvl 10) and DeathBlow (lvl 12) and got some Stamina boosting equipment. 

[LarryFine]

mosspit wrote...

I agree with dkjestru on this. However you look at it, a s/s tank will always have a higher def and armour due to speciality skills and shield. Trying to say that a dw warrior is a better tank because he kills enemies faster is a little far-fetched. Can I then say mages(not AW) are great tanks because of their AoEs and CCs?
Btw 100 phy res != stun and knockdown immunites. From what I gathered it is not %based like spell res.

My friend you're missing the point.  We're not saying that a DW warrior is a better tank because it kills things faster.  Look at the real purpose of a tank.  A tanks job is to keep the mobs attention and aborb the beating and keep the squishies safe.  I can taunt dual weapon sweep and whirlwind and lock every mob onto me.  Defense means little because everything dies so fast that I still don't take as much of a beating as SnS warrior.  Even more so my other companions are free to pile aoe's on because I've got everyone locked down.  All the kills with death blow means as well that the only thing that stops me from spamming talents are cool downs.  The greatest testament is the fact that my party dies far less with my dww than my SnS which means he obviously does his job better than my SnS did his.

The SnS would have been a better class if it had whirlwind as well in which it swung out with sword and shield smacking everything around it.

[mosspit]

LarryFine wrote...

mosspit wrote...

I agree with dkjestru on this. However you look at it, a s/s tank will always have a higher def and armour due to speciality skills and shield. Trying to say that a dw warrior is a better tank because he kills enemies faster is a little far-fetched. Can I then say mages(not AW) are great tanks because of their AoEs and CCs?
Btw 100 phy res != stun and knockdown immunites. From what I gathered it is not %based like spell res.

My friend you're missing the point.  We're not saying that a DW warrior is a better tank because it kills things faster.  Look at the real purpose of a tank.  A tanks job is to keep the mobs attention and aborb the beating and keep the squishies safe.  I can taunt dual weapon sweep and whirlwind and lock every mob onto me.  Defense means little because everything dies so fast that I still don't take as much of a beating as SnS warrior.  Even more so my other companions are free to pile aoe's on because I've got everyone locked down.  All the kills with death blow means as well that the only thing that stops me from spamming talents are cool downs.  The greatest testament is the fact that my party dies far less with my dww than my SnS which means he obviously does his job better than my SnS did his.

The SnS would have been a better class if it had whirlwind as well in which it swung out with sword and shield smacking everything around it.

I am not missing the point. I am just setting up the boundaries for the discussion. You have added dps into the picture of tanking. To me a tanking role involves aggro collection and survivability. Bringing other comabt aspects to the table and I feel that the point will deviate from tanking.
What you are trying to say is in fact the dw dpser does such a great job that the tanking role is marginalized. You are NOT justifying that a dw is a better tank  than a SnS whch is based on my tank role considerations. I do recognise dw as the best warrior dps. Thats all.

Modifié par mosspit, 31 janvier 2010 - 09:00 .

[LarryFine]

mosspit wrote...

LarryFine wrote...

mosspit wrote...

I agree with dkjestru on this. However you look at it, a s/s tank will always have a higher def and armour due to speciality skills and shield. Trying to say that a dw warrior is a better tank because he kills enemies faster is a little far-fetched. Can I then say mages(not AW) are great tanks because of their AoEs and CCs?
Btw 100 phy res != stun and knockdown immunites. From what I gathered it is not %based like spell res.

My friend you're missing the point.  We're not saying that a DW warrior is a better tank because it kills things faster.  Look at the real purpose of a tank.  A tanks job is to keep the mobs attention and aborb the beating and keep the squishies safe.  I can taunt dual weapon sweep and whirlwind and lock every mob onto me.  Defense means little because everything dies so fast that I still don't take as much of a beating as SnS warrior.  Even more so my other companions are free to pile aoe's on because I've got everyone locked down.  All the kills with death blow means as well that the only thing that stops me from spamming talents are cool downs.  The greatest testament is the fact that my party dies far less with my dww than my SnS which means he obviously does his job better than my SnS did his.

The SnS would have been a better class if it had whirlwind as well in which it swung out with sword and shield smacking everything around it.

To me a tanking role involves aggro collection and survivability. 

You've simply proved my point with that statement.  Tanking is about aggro collection and survivability.  The SnS tree does not give warriors who follow its path any additional abilities to maintain aggro.  All of the primary aggro achieving abilities are standard in the warrior line and are not exclusive to the SnS warrior.  The SnS line highlights increased defense not increased aggro management.  Its only able to use the abilities in its line to focus on damaging a single enemy meaning everyone has to focus on killing the single target that the SnS is fighting against or risk being attacked.

The dww has talents within its tree that allow it to build and maintain aggro on a large collection of enemies.  This means the casters with a dw tank can use both single target and aoe spells maximizing their own damage and killing potential and therefore improving the efficiency of the entire team.


Your second point is survivability.  The SnS survives through superior defense and the ability to mitigate damage.  The dww survives through maximizing damage and minimizing the amount of time the enemy has to inflict damage.  In addition to this as I mentioned in the previous paragraph with his superior aggro management capabilities the rest of the party is capable of maximizing their damage *on normal mode with no friendly fire* allowing things to be dispatched more quickly.  No member of my dww's party has double digit injuries.  So far through the broken tower, redcliffe, and the urn of ashes, and beginning paragon of her kind Morrigan leads my team with 4 injuries.  Despite his inferior defense my dww has only been injured once.  With my SnS warrior Leliana was injured almost 30 times and  Morrigan had managed over 20 injuries and my SnS had fallen more than 10 times as well. 

The simple fact of the matter is that the dww has superior aggro management skills and superior personal and group survivability than the SnS.  The purpose of a tank is to manage aggro and ensure the survivability of his entire party not just himself.  The amount of times where my SnS was the last one standing while the entire rest of his party was injured was ridiculous.  I remember doing Leliana's side quest and Morrigan, Wynne, and Leliana all being dead while my SnS sat there finishing off Majorlaine and 2 of her henchmen by himself.  I remember the simple fact that the assassins that Majorlaine sent killed everyone in my party but my SnS as well.  During both of these meetings with my dww my entire party survived.  This is why I say my dww is a better tank than my SnS he keeps everyone alive not just himself and that is what a real tank does.  

My dww is a tank because he's able to keep the rest of my party out of harms way so they can do their job.  That is what it means to be a tank not just having a shield and a butt load of defense.  The tank is supposed to be the line of defense between the enemy and your squishies and my dww with his increased damage fulfills that role far better than my SnS could ever dream of.

[soteria]

Larry, the thing you're missing is that you don't need anything other than taunt to hold aggro. You're making a big deal about whirlwind etc helping you keep the monsters on you, but those abilities are completely unnecessary for that. Taunt by itself is enough to keep almost everything stuck to you until it's dead. What you're left with is that DW kills faster. Ok. My only concern when throwing out aoe with my mage is friendly fire.



As for the rest of your post, I think you're completely ignoring the possibility that you might have also just gotten better at building characters and playing the game. My second playthrough was easier than my first. My third was easier than my second. My fourth was even easier. See a pattern?



All I really got out of your post is that you kill stuff faster and you don't really need a tank. That's fine, in my most recent playthrough I killed stuff fast and didn't use a healer, or potions. That doesn't mean playing without a healer or using potions is a superior strategy.

[Tsunami49]

I do have a question then. What's the difference between the dww and the 2Hw? Is it just that the dww deals more dps while the 2H can be immune to knock down. because i wan't to do a new warrior play through but cannot decide between the Dw and 2H as i have done the good old sword and board character.

[dkjestrup]

2h Warrior has immunity to stun and knockdown, and has the great 2h sweep. They are also very fun to play



Also, you can one-shot most trash mobs with a sunder or a crit (mightyblow/crit strike) which is fun.



And they look cool, until you get the Chasind Great Maul. If you have the Wardens keep, you can still look cool with your Starfang without gimping yourself.

[Haplose]

Tsunami49 wrote...

I do have a question then. What's the difference between the dww and the 2Hw? Is it just that the dww deals more dps while the 2H can be immune to knock down. because i wan't to do a new warrior play through but cannot decide between the Dw and 2H as i have done the good old sword and board character.

Dual-Wepon is better DPS. 2H is immune to knockdown AND stun and has better crowd-control himself.
His aoe Sweep is also an aoe Knockdown and his critical hits have 50% to stun enemies. Also has an instant single target knockdown/interrupt - Pommel Strike.

[Sarielle]

Question. Out of curiosity, what type of armor do you wear on your DWW, providing you're not remotely interested in tanking and plan to have a tank along?

[Tsunami49]

Well if you want the tank to maintain agro you'll put him in massive and yourself in heavy. But if you're extra stamina concious you could try medium. There some threads lying around about med armour dw warriors somewhere.

edit:

btw thanks for the responses dk and hap many thanks

Modifié par Tsunami49, 31 janvier 2010 - 11:09 .

[LarryFine]

Tsunami49 wrote...

I do have a question then. What's the difference between the dww and the 2Hw? Is it just that the dww deals more dps while the 2H can be immune to knock down. because i wan't to do a new warrior play through but cannot decide between the Dw and 2H as i have done the good old sword and board character.

2h has immunity to stuns and knockdowns, SnS has immunity to knockdowns.  I have 100 physical resistance on my dww and he rarely gets knocked down as a result.  I just fought Flemeth last night and she was able to knock me down when she flew in the air and crashed back into the ground but that was it.

[Sarielle]

Tsunami49 wrote...

Well if you want the tank to maintain agro you'll put him in massive and yourself in heavy. But if you're extra stamina concious you could try medium. There some threads lying around about med armour dw warriors somewhere.

edit:

btw thanks for the responses dk and hap many thanks

Yeah, I'm sure there are, unfortunately there's also no search function currently, heh. So I jumped on the opportunity to ask while I could. I wondered if anyone went light other than rogue dual wielders

Modifié par Sarielle, 31 janvier 2010 - 11:33 .

[LarryFine]

soteria wrote...

Larry, the thing you're missing is that you don't need anything other than taunt to hold aggro. You're making a big deal about whirlwind etc helping you keep the monsters on you, but those abilities are completely unnecessary for that. Taunt by itself is enough to keep almost everything stuck to you until it's dead. What you're left with is that DW kills faster. Ok. My only concern when throwing out aoe with my mage is friendly fire.

As for the rest of your post, I think you're completely ignoring the possibility that you might have also just gotten better at building characters and playing the game. My second playthrough was easier than my first. My third was easier than my second. My fourth was even easier. See a pattern?

All I really got out of your post is that you kill stuff faster and you don't really need a tank. That's fine, in my most recent playthrough I killed stuff fast and didn't use a healer, or potions. That doesn't mean playing without a healer or using potions is a superior strategy.

"All I really got out of your post is that you kill stuff faster and you don't really need a tank."

This is exactly my point SnS doesn't = tank and anything other than SnS isn't automatically disqualified from consideration as a tank.  All that is required to tank is taunt which every  warrior gets.  This whole thing has been about you guys demanding that a SnS is the only tank and because my warrior isn't a sns he can't be a tank and instead he is a dps.  Every warrior has aggro management abilities and surviveability and is capable of being considered a tank.  If your mage can pull everything to him and survive the fact then he's a tank mage

I have 100 physical resistance so knockdowns only happen against boss mobs.  I still do get stunned but it doesn't last as long as it did previously.  I'm attempting to decide if my next playthrough is going to be a 2h warrior or if I'm finally going to make a rogue and throw Leliana out of my party.  If its a rogue it'll be a casteless dwarf so I get a free steal and the idea of seducing Morrigan with a dwarf amuses me.

Modifié par LarryFine, 01 février 2010 - 12:22 .

[soteria]

Calm down.

This whole thing has been about you guys demanding that a SnS is the only tank and because my warrior isn't a sns he can't be a tank and instead he is a dps.

Show me where I've said, ever, that a sword and shield warrior is the only build that can tank in this game.   Or heck, even where dkjestrup said that.  They're better at tanking, period.

Every warrior has aggro management abilities and surviveability and is capable of being considered a tank. If your mage can pull everything to him and survive the fact then he's a tank mage

Only if he's doing it by mitigating damage via armor and defense. Do you know what tanking is? Serious question. Tanking is more than just getting stuff to attack you and surviving.  I'm starting to think you just don't know what tanking is.  I'd be interested to hear your definition, it might explain some things.

The honest truth is this game is pretty easy. There's a lot of things you don't need, to include a full party, a mage, a rogue, a warrior, potions, or anything else you can think of. Saying, "I can kill stuff fast and don't need a tank" is completely irrelevant to a discussion of what the best tank build is. I see this argument all the time used in different ways, and it's just a bad argument. The presence of multiple options does not preclude the presence of a best option.

Modifié par soteria, 01 février 2010 - 12:50 .

[MagusShade]

Lol wait did I read correctly that some pple here think DW Warriors are the best tanks????

ROFL

Try a dwarf Noble with shield, juggernaut armor, spellward, embils many pockets, starfang with dweomer. Now thats a hell of a tank. Spells all resisted, cant be knocked down with shield wall on, taunt keeps aggro. Oh did I mention if you use Fade Wall you can watch as monsters hit you for 10 or less damage?

Saying DWW is a good tank because you kill monsters before you take much damge is NOT a good plan. Why not just kill it fast with your DW while a real tank takes NO damage?

Killing things fast so you dont take damage.... I bet that works really well against Archdemons >.<

Modifié par MagusShade, 01 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[GeorgeZip]

MagusShade wrote...

Lol wait did I read correctly that some pple here think DW Warriors are the best tanks????

ROFL

Try a dwarf Noble with shield, juggernaut armor, spellward, embils many pockets, starfang with dweomer. Now thats a hell of a tank. Spells all resisted, cant be knocked down with shield wall on, taunt keeps aggro. Oh did I mention if you use Fade Wall you can watch as monsters hit you for 10 or less damage?

Saying DWW is a good tank because you kill monsters before you take much damge is NOT a good plan. Why not just kill it fast with your DW while a real tank takes NO damage?

Killing things fast so you dont take damage.... I bet that works really well against Archdemons >.<

The fact is, from first hand experience, the DWW was far superior as a tank than the Shield using warrior. Try the setup you described on a DWW with two 3-socket weapons and tell me it isn't superior to your shield tank.  I never noticed my DWW taking more damage and needing more heals, he held agro well thru damage and taunting skills, and targets died faster.  This is true in boss fights and mass mob attacks.  I know this conflicts with the classic training where tanks need shields.  In this game they don't, even at highest difficulty levels.

And yes killing things faster and taking less damage is kind of the point of it right?  If you are swarmed by 6 mobs and you kill 1 quickly, only 5 are dealing damage.  Damaged creatures still pump out full dps, so unless they are dead, damage to them doesn't help you.

Lastly DWW do stand up well against Archdemons, revenants, even Gaxkang.  I'd even argue to make them less powerful because you don't need a shield past level 12ish when your skills and gear start to come together.  The only weakness as stated is they can be knocked down.

[mosspit]

Unless we can agree on WHAT IS a TANK, we will never be able to come to a meaningful conclusion. Instead of discussing of build and scenarios, why not just state opinions on what is tank? Have a agreeable base for discussion, it will be easier for the answer to reveal itself. I have already stated my thoughts on what makes a tank.