190 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimerdinger]

Man I don't even know where to start. I'll just list the entire cluster**** step by step.

 

- the game forces you to kiss noble ass. There is no way around that, no alternative option. Where is the Inquisition's power? Is that just numbers on screen? What about a brute force approach? I actually let the timer go down to get this nonsense over with and see if there is another option to deal with the assassin, and without court approval let them decide who rules. But nope, you gotta play the mother****** Grand Game in Bio's high society fantasies.

 

- you get kicked out of the party because nobles don't like you, and you get a GAME OVER screen. What the hell? You are the Inquisitor, you close rifts (the only one that closes rifts), you kill dragons, you have armies, assassins, spies, agents, avvar barbarians who show their buttocks, templars and so on. This is STUPID and makes refusing The Catalyst ending in ME3 look like a masterpiece of video game writing. Where is the option to be ruthless, like taking the nobles hostage and demand their houses resources?

 

- Inquisition staff looks stupid, all dressed up like jesters. Cassandra is right, everyone should show up in full armor, a display of force. You get clown outfits instead, may as well have big red noses too. At least give poor FemQuisitor a dress, she looks so out of place.

 

- the timer ruins whatever is left of this quest. You are fighting in hall to save everyone from demons, yet you lose because hey you're not "fashionably late" and you're just plain late. Also you will get lost in the castle, the map is useless and level design is confusing. Exploring and looting is ruined. Even more fetch quests to keep the counter up.

 

- Inquisition soldiers are useless. Guys with armor and swords fall to a woman in clumsy dress and a knife. GG. Why am I even training these idiots?

 

- Inquisitor feels small and powerless. Never thought I'd miss Hawke. At least he told people to sod off and didn't get a bloody game over screen.

 

- opening doors with freakin' halla statues. What is this I don't even?

 

By the end I was just picking random responses and hitting Esc key to just get it over with. Frustration level was over 9000. Apparently Celene rules, Gaspard is executed and Briala is in exile. And I just don't care. The sad part is that I read The Masked Empire and I actually loved these characters.

 

/Rant over. Over and out.

 

Edit: My main issue with this quest and the game overall:

 

The game empowers your organization at the war table with power points, influence points, agents, treaties, and alliances and so on. Then it dumbs it down when you're actually out in the field.

 

In theory you have the power, but the game does not give you the choice to use it,

 

That's bad design, innit?

Modifié par Heimerdinger, 26 mai 2015 - 06:39 .

[Ellana of clan Lavellan]

You have terribly misinterpreted the value of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. It does suffer from some bad execution, yes, but you've just made a fool out of yourself from what you've just said.

[Heimerdinger]

You have terribly misinterpreted the value of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts.

 

I misinterpreted nothing. The quest is a frustrating waste of the player's time and makes previous actions seem pointless. You're supposed to stop an assassin and secure the Empire's stability. There are many ways to accomplish this without making the hero look like a useless play thing for some idiots in clown costumes. Not when you have alternatives. And whats the point of obtaining power if you can't use it when needed? 

 

 

 

you've just made a fool out of yourself from what you've just said.

 

So we're openly insulting people now? That's cool.

[Ashaantha]

That quest sits on a balance between people who absolutely detest it and people who like it. I agree with some of your rants' points though, not all but around half. this is a bit of a useless post, but still. Good to get stuff off your chest even if it's in the form of a forum rant, you'll find quite a few people probably fully agree with you, due to the reason in my first sentence.

[Shechinah]

- Inquisition staff looks stupid, all dressed up like jesters. Cassandra is right, everyone should show up in full armor, a display of force. You get clown outfits instead, may as well have big red noses too. At least give poor FemQuisitor a dress, she looks so out of place.

 

Of all the things I wanted to comment on, this stood out the most; It may have been exaggerated for effect but I cannot see much if any resemblence between a jester or a clown outfit and the Inquisition's formal wear during the quest. 

 

I can understand those who considered it to be unremarkable and a bit bland but it bears no resemblence, in my eyes, to that of a clown or a jester unless you consider red and blue colors that should only be used in jester and clown designs.

 

[Smudjygirl]

As I recall, the Inquisition at that point is still a new power. It would have been counterproductive to act self important and reckless. Plus it was a good contrast between the politics most have seen (I.e. the Lands meet) and the Orleasian grand game, that has been rather infamous the pervious two games. I thought it was interesting and unique, especially since I've wanted to know more about the game and Orlesian politics since origins.

While I disagree with most of your points, I can see where you are coming from. I don't think it was a "waste of player time", but I do think it could have been more interesting at the start.

The outfits and Halla statues are points I agree on. Those "prince" outfits were out of place, though I quite liked them on Cullen. And there weren't enough halls statues for every door, which was slightly annoying. I've used all, so I know I missed getting an agent in favour of reuniting Briala and Celine.

[leaguer of one]

Then it's clear you don't know good design. You only want the story to bend to your will then interact with it.

 

1. you can't say the quis is powerless in this because by the end of this quest you can have control of all Orlais.

2. The quest is about the orlain game. You not kissing Nobles ass, your playing along. You can even turn this ageist them.

3.And your facing Bards, you know like the killing machine Liliana is, of course they would take down your solders.

4. the quest is also about a appearance so ofcourse you have to keep it up.

5.And you missed the fact the imperial palace us to belong to the Anicent elves.....Which explains the halla statues.

6. And yes if you don't play the game you get kick out. That how it is.

 

If you want to win, play along and beat them at there game. that's all you can do to spite them.

[Heimerdinger]

As I recall, the Inquisition at that point is still a new power. It would have been counterproductive to act self important and reckless.

 

It's past Act 1, the main breach was closed, templars/mages have joined. Besides, without the Herald the world is lost, no one else can seal rifts. The Inquisition should impose respect.

 

Then it's clear you don't know good design. You only want the story to bend to your will then interact with it.

 

1. you can't say the quis is powerless in this because by the end of this quest you can have control of all Orlais.

 

You could get control by other means as well, without playing their grand game. But the choice is taken away from the player.

 

 

 

2. The quest is about the orlain game. You not kissing Nobles ass, your playing along. You can even turn this ageist them.

 

The Ladsmeet was about Fereldan politics, but you didn't need the court's approval to win, there were choices.

 

 

 

3.And your facing Bards, you know like the killing machine Liliana is, of course they would take down your solders.

 

Then bring more soldiers. Are we not leading a powerful organisation this time instead of a small team?

 

 

 

4. the quest is also about a appearance so ofcourse you have to keep it up.

 

Again, choices.

 

 

 

5.And you missed the fact the imperial palace us to belong to the Anicent elves.....Which explains the halla statues.

 

It's still a bad gameplay mechanism, made even worse by other mechanics like the timer.

 

 

 

6. And yes if you don't play the game you get kick out. That how it is.

 

No. The Inquisition can demand a presence not ask or beg for one. It is the only faction dealing with the rifts. It was created under the former Divine's directive. It can have the Templar Order as members and allies and they don't answer to nobles. It has the people's support. It has a military arm and controls keeps and forts and trading routes. 

 

But hey, maybe I'm just too used to playing characters like Shepard where the direct (renegade) approach is always available and works just fine.

[Toasted Llama]

I personally didn't enjoy this quest because it's not my cup of tea, since I hate timed missions, but to call it bad design? Sweet jesus some people are closeminded.

- If you think you're kissing noble ass you have NO idea how the game or Orleisian politics work. I suggest you get involved with the lore. If you're staightforward or blunt with your actions, everyone knows what you're up to and an attempt to thwart your plans becomes ridiculously easy. The key with the Game is to pretend to kiss everyone's ass and using that to masquerade your hidden agenda. This quest is all about being unpredictable, sly and clever.

 

- And ofcourse the nobles will kick you out if they don't like you, you're seen as a heretic, as fake. These nobles didn't see you fight dragons, close rifts etc. They've only heard stories from hearsay and do you know how much stories get twisted and warped from mouth to mouth? There's 0 reason for them to simply believe you're the Herald of Andraste, or whatever high title you've given yourself. They'll want to see evidence first. And if you're just going to use whatever power you have to get what you want, they'll have no reason to see you as someone they should support, but rather a threat that needs to be put down. Use your power and the Orleisian army is on your ass. And with only some of the templars or mages with maybe the heavily weakened Grey Wardens, you've got nothing to stop them.

 

- Why does your (dis)taste in wardrobe suddenly matter to whether or not the quest is bad?

 

- If you are the oh-mighty powerful Inquisitor then surely, you'd have no problem with dispatching enemies in a time limit, no?
 

- Inquisition soldiers are, as someone else pointed out already, killed by bards. I suggest you open up DA:O and start listening to Leliana's dialogue without esc'ing through it.

 

- Small and powerless? If you know how to outsmart the nobles and beat them with their own game you get to decide who rules Orlais! You practically got Orlais on your leash!

- Are you also going to complain about the shards in the Hidden Oasis or the red lyrium shards in In Hushed Whispers?

[Smudjygirl]

It's past Act 1, the main breach was closed, templars/mages have joined. Besides, without the Herald the world is lost, no one else can seal rifts. The Inquisition should impose respect..

Not necessarily. People usually don't just bend over and go "take all you want". Orlais in particular sees itself as the most important and powerful place ever. With the Breach gone, Celine probably thought I end the civil war and deal with the big bad. Only by showing you can beat them at their own game does whoever you choose bend knee to you. They have enough presence for Gaspard to think he could use the Inquisitor,but nothing more.

[leaguer of one]

It's past Act 1, the main breach was closed, templars/mages have joined. Besides, without the Herald the world is lost, no one else can seal rifts. The Inquisition should impose respect.

 

 

You could get control by other means as well, without playing their grand game. But the choice is taken away from the player.

 

 

The Landsmeet was about Fereldan politics, but you didn't need the court's approval to win, there were choices.

 

 

Then bring more soldiers. Are we not leading a powerful organisation this time instead of a small team?

 

 

Again, choices.

 

 

It's still a bad gameplay mechanism, made even worse by other mechanics like the timer.

 

 

No. The Inquisition can demand a presence not ask or beg for one. It is the only faction dealing with the rifts. It was created under the former Divine's directive. It can have the Templar Order as members and allies and they don't answer to nobles. It has the people's support. It has a military arm and controls keeps and forts and trading routes. 

 

But hey, maybe I'm just too used to playing characters like Shepard where the direct (renegade) approach is always available and works just fine.

1.You can't impose respect. You don't have enough power as of yet. mages and templers mean nothing to Orlais military might.

2.And no you can't get control by other means, Orlais is way more powerful then the inquisition at this point.

3. Fereldan politics politics is just a hoedown compared to Orlais'. Fereldin is still stuck in the middle ages while Orlais is in the renasance.

4.You not understanding that the powers at be would let you bring more soldiers.

5.And choice have consiquence. Like being kicked out if you don't play along. Choices is is not about letting tplayer do everything. It's about the result of said actions.

6.Not really.

7.No they can't. The inquistion is a vastly weaker power then Orlais. You don't have the back, the numbers, or the support to talk Orlais by force. you'll be seen as just another Gespard with even less teeth. The templar order is no way equal to Orlais military, not even with the inquisition.

[Heimerdinger]

 

 

You're missing the point. The game gives you 1 (one) way of dealing with this situation. That's it. Word of God. No other choices. Most RPG quest give at least a poor man's 2 choices.

 

The timer design is bad not because it's difficult to dispatch 10 demons and 10 other mooks under a time limit. It's bad because it makes no sense. The nobles don't see me. So what?

 

Shards in Oasis. I'll complain when I get there. If it's optional then probably not worth doing. Another fetch quest with collect 20/20 items. Even the specializations are a fetch quest. Still didn't get one. Damn.

 

@leaguer of one

 

Orlais is in disorder. The chevaliers have been killing themselves in a civil war. Part of their army is walking around as the undead or are burning in pits. They are nowhere near full force.

Modifié par Heimerdinger, 24 mai 2015 - 03:29 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I agree with the OP. Wicked Hearts and Wicked Minds quest was bad and the developers should feel bad.

 

 

Like Celene, Briala, and Gaspard all left these sensitive documents lying around on the floor of the ball. Nobody thinks to pick them up but the Inquisitor. How convenient. The ball was nothing more than a glorified fetch-quest that happened to have some boss fight and decision at the end of it.

[Shechinah]

Not necessarily. People usually don't just bend over and go "take all you want". Orlais in particular sees itself as the most important and powerful place ever. With the Breach gone, Celine probably thought I end the civil war and deal with the big bad. Only by showing you can beat them at their own game does whoever you choose bend knee to you. They have enough presence for Gaspard to think he could use the Inquisitor,but nothing more.

 

In addition, if they think the threat of the Breach has ended and consider this Corypheus spoken of as something handleable by whoever wins the Empire then they'd be even less inclined to be respectful to the Inquisitior since they'd be less inclined to think they need them for anything. They may even believe that the reason the Breach was able to be closed lied in the assistance of the mages or templars and could be duplicated by someone. Orlais' nobility has an attitude of overly superiority and are liable to have an attitude of complacency as well because of how they live and where they live.

 

If the Inquisitor had made an agressive move towards Orlais or given the impression they were likely to do so like portraying themselves at the party as someone who'd bring in soldiers of their own and think strongarming their political opponents would work, I'd think Gaspard and Celene would see what they consider a common enemy and even consider uniting against them momentarily because you, a very actual and proven enemy in their eyes, are threatening their empire and chance to rule in a time of civil war. 

 

It would be a horrible thing in the long-run for them and the Inquisition because of the actual threat that Corypheus poses but if they see the Inquisition as this newly risen organization of armed forces rapidly gaining power and their leader seemingly seems to think that power gives them the right to decide to disregard their culture and laws, insult the might of Orlais and showing evidence that they intend to perhaps upsurp it by how they behave at the party like bringing in more soldiers that would be hard to hide in such a number, it would not be unreasonable to assume there was a chance they'd choose to deal with what they see as an immediate threat in the making.     
 

[Donovan Du Bois]

You're missing the point. The game gives you 1 (one) way of dealing with this situation. That's it. Word of God. No other choices. Most RPG quest give at least a poor man's 2 choices.

 

The timer design is bad not because it's difficult to dispatch 10 demons and 10 other mooks under a time limit. It's bad because it makes no sense. The nobles don't see me. So what?

 

Shards in Oasis. I'll complain when I get there. If it's optional then probably not worth doing. Another fetch quest with collect 20/20 items. Event the specializations are a fetch quest. Still didn't get one. Damn.

 

@leaguer of one

 

Orlais is in disorder. The chevaliers have been killing themselves in a civil war. Part of their army is walking around as the undead or are burning in pits. They are nowhere near full force.

 

That's not true though: there are several ways to go about this quest, but you must play by their rules because you don't have the force to demand otherwise. 

[Smudjygirl]

In addition, if they think the threat of the Breach has ended and consider this Corypheus spoken of as something handleable by whoever wins the Empire then they'd be even less inclined to be respectful to the Inquisitior since they'd be less inclined to think they need them for anything. They may even believe that the reason the Breach was able to be closed lied in the assistance of the mages or templars and could be duplicated by someone. Orlais' nobility has an attitude of overly superiority and are liable to have an attitude of complacency as well because of how they live and where they live.
 
If the Inquisitor had made an agressive move towards Orlais or given the impression they were likely to do so like portraying themselves at the party as someone who'd bring in soldiers of their own and think strongarming their political opponents would work, I'd think Gaspard and Celene would see what they consider a common enemy and even consider uniting against them momentarily because you, a very actual and proven enemy in their eyes, are threatening their empire and chance to rule in a time of civil war. 
 
It would be a horrible thing in the long-run for them and the Inquisition because of the actual threat that Corypheus poses but if they see the Inquisition as this newly risen organization of armed forces rapidly gaining power and their leader seemingly seems to think that power gives them the right to decide to disregard their culture and laws, insult the might of Orlais and showing evidence that they intend to perhaps upsurp it by how they behave at the party like bringing in more soldiers that would be hard to hide in such a number, it would not be unreasonable to assume there was a chance they'd choose to deal with what they see as an immediate threat in the making.

This is especially true for Inquisitors who aren't a non-mage human. And even then Josie says time and time again that Orlais is not all that fond of Free Marchers, or anyone else.

[leaguer of one]

You're missing the point. The game gives you 1 (one) way of dealing with this situation. That's it. Word of God. No other choices. Most RPG quest give at least a poor man's 2 choices.

 

The timer design is bad not because it's difficult to dispatch 10 demons and 10 other mooks under a time limit. It's bad because it makes no sense. The nobles don't see me. So what?

 

Shards in Oasis. I'll complain when I get there. If it's optional then probably not worth doing. Another fetch quest with collect 20/20 items. Event the specializations are a fetch quest. Still didn't get one. Damn.

You clealry did not play the same game I've have. You have way more then one way to deal with the situation.It branches 3 ways, Celen is dead and ether Gespard or Brala is in charge of Orlais, Celene is alive as is working with Gespard or Brala, or all 3 are alive and they all work for the inquisitor. and that has nothing to do with the counter. It has everything to do with the secrets you find in the winter place and what you do when the assassination happens. The count controls the favor of the court and control if you stay in the party and the inquisitions favor with Orlais. Also, you can gain the points back by just standing around in the party.

[Heimerdinger]

You clealry did not play the same game I've have. You have way more then one way to deal with the situation.It branches 3 ways, Celen is dead and ether Gespard or Brala is in charge of Orlais, Celene is alive as is working with Gespard or Brala, or all 3 are alive and they all work for the inquisitor. and that has nothing to do with the counter. It has everything to do with the secrets you find in the winter place and what you do when the assassination happens. The count controls the favor of the court and control if you stay in the party and the inquisitions favor with Orlais. Also, you can gain the points back by just standing around in the party.

You're talking about outcomes. Yes there are 3 of them but only one way to get there. By comparison "Arl of Redclife" in DAO also has multiple outcomes, but also multiple ways of getting to said outcomes.

[c0bra951]

"- the timer ruins whatever is left of this quest."

 

I sympathize.  The introduction of an hours-long timer-and-snooze-button albatross around your neck completely changed the proceedings for the worse.  Having to play the Orlesian-court "game" did not bother me as much.  The whole quest was like a self-contained mini-game which bore little resemblance to everything else.  It was a jarring disconnect, and the first time I went through it, I was as frustrated as you.  Then I remembered that we can save or load at just about any time.  Gain favor = save.  Lose favor = load.  Problem solved.

[zambingo]

Being a bull in a china shop (ignoring for a moment that Mythbusters busted this saying) probably would only result in Orlais thumbing it's nose at the Inquisition, regardless of the Inquisition's power. It would likely be similar to the scene in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail when Arthur meets the French. The Inquisition must play the game as it's in the best interests of the Inquisition. The game's, the nobles' belief of whether they gain from the Inquisition's "ass kissing" is inconsequential to the Inquisition knowing they have actually come out on top.

With that said, liking the gameplay of the level is an entirely separate matter to the narrative.

[NickyBarb]

I agree with some of your points. I even hate this quest and dread going into it. However, I felt the Inquisitor actually held a lot of influence otherwise why woulld they leave the decision of who rules Orlais to you?

[Donovan Du Bois]

I agree with some of your points. I even hate this quest and dread going into it. However, I felt the Inquisitor actually held a lot of influence otherwise why woulld they leave the decision of who rules Orlais to you?

 

They don't, Selene asks your opinion after you save her life. The court doesn't know you even had an input.

[NickyBarb]

Still. What does your opinion matter?

[Donovan Du Bois]

Still. What does your opinion matter?

 

You were instrumental in saving her life, so she asks what you would do, it's a gesture of trust from her. Maybe she likes you as a person, maybe she wants to strengthen ties with the inquisition, maybe she thinks your voice is nice, who knows.

[Smudjygirl]

They don't, Selene asks your opinion after you save her life. The court doesn't know you even had an input.

Though they probably do, since however it end, it ends with Orlais having a ruler because of the Inquisitor. Orlais politics it a "behind closed doors" sort o thing. You outmaneuver all 3 of them, gaining the respect of the nobility. What matters is you win the game, not who you put on the throne. I say this because afterwards Josie says that "there are barely any noble houses that haven't openly pledged support to you". It's more than "who rules", you twist the Orlesian nobles around your little finger too, because you prove you are a "master of the game". That is how the Inquisitor gets Orlais. (I read way too much into the lore)