190 réponses à ce sujet

[herkles]

You also have to consider that Gaspard and Celene are deliberately making the place insecure in order to beat each other at the Game and have their plans take the other down.

[leaguer of one]

They have support from the inside.

But yes, plot is stupid. It'd be stupider if the Inquisition could just march in and take over the palace.

It's almost like the person who planned the party is in on the assassination.

[MisterJB]

You're missing the point. The game gives you 1 (one) way of dealing with this situation. That's it. Word of God. No other choices. Most RPG quest give at least a poor man's 2 choices.

No, the game actually gives you multiple ways to handle the situation. Gaspard rules alone, Celene rules alone, Celene rules with Briala, Briala rules through Gaspard, denounce one, denounce two, hold all in blackmail, save Celene, let her die, use the court to arrest Florianne, kill her.

 

What it doesn't is reward you for walking into a game of poker and trying to play "go fish".

 

[leaguer of one]

 

 

What it doesn't is reward you for walking into a game of poker and trying to play "go fish".

...With a hammer....

[Giantdeathrobot]

If the other poster missed the point by 5 Astronomical Units, then you missed it by 8 Kiloparsecs and hit the galactic core.

 

The point was:

 

Option A - Direct Approach - Use soldiers to secure the palace. Protect the empress at all cost, that's the mission. Then proceed to search for evidence and identify assassin. Ball be damned.

 

Option B - Diplomatic Approach - Play along, use stealth, blend in and wait for assassin to make a move. Or expose assassin in public.

 

RPG questing 101. Minimum poor man's 2 choices. Multiple paths. Choices. Exactly what we don't have here. You only get B and not A.

 

But I've repeated enough. This exchange is over.

 

 

You went full...nevermind.

 

Except that makes no sense. The Empress's guards aren't going to let a third party with unknown motives (who by the by have been declared heretics) ''secure'' their ruler right under their nose. All you're doing is inviting the Orlesian nobility to crush you, while Florianne laughs in her cups. Hell, she could easily kill Celene in the chaos as the Inquisitor tries to show everyone who's boss and pin it on the Inquisition.

 

The Venatori infiltrated the palace with inside help, and even then there weren't that many of them. Certainly nowhere near enough to secure the palace, else they would just have overpowered Celene's guards, not tried an assassination.

 

The direct approach makes no sense and doesn't work. Just like trying to use diplomacy at Adamant doesn't work. You play along until you can show your hand. That's basic politics. Besides, you can insult everyone to your heart's content, so long as you are above 0 favor it's not that big a deal (albeit you get a worse ending slide). But if you think that the PC should be able to trample over everything and everyone consequence free because they're the PC I wonder why you even play an RPG.

[NRieh]

No it did not. it only has 2 illusions of a way out. Which came down to kill the Duke with Tallis or with out.

What are you talking about? Hawke can either stealth into the Vault or break in. That's a different gameplay style, and it's a player who makes this choice. 

 

 

 

Oh, and to the people upset with the outfits: this is why we have headcanon.

Nope. This is why we have... mods!   

 

 

Multiple paths. Choices. Exactly what we don't have here.

This, yes. 

[NRieh]

 

The direct approach makes no sense and doesn't work. Just like trying to use diplomacy at Adamant doesn't work.

You've missed the point. It's not about demanding bruteforce, it's about the options (lack of thereof, actually).

 

Give me a single reason why there's no stealthy way. We can smuggle in our troops (and so does Gaspard, and so does Briala). we've got Leliana and Varric (possibly Cole and Sera too), why can't we have a diplomacy vs stealth scenario? Why can't we have a force approach option with an inq rep\level check? 

[leaguer of one]

You've missed the point. It's not about demanding bruteforce, it's about the options (lack of thereof, actually).

 

Give me a single reason why there's no stealthy way. We can smuggle in our troops (and so does Gaspard, and so does Briala). we've got Leliana and Varric (possibly Cole and Sera too), why can't we have a diplomacy vs stealth scenario? Why can't we have a force approach option with an inq rep\level check? 

Because you are being watched, You have no inside man, and the person in charge of the party is not only working against you but also planning the assassination.

 

Seriously, you don't get you asking to be allowed to sneak people in party who's goers culture is all about Subterfuge makes no sense?  Do you know how many people let alone the nobles are trained as bards? 2 of the powers at be are master bards and the hostess/assassin is a bard as well. They would see it coming a mile a way.

 

And you have choice in this. it's just none of the choice is about using a hammer. This is something you can't beat down to beat.

[NRieh]

 

Because you are being watched, You have no inside man

We don't have 'an inside man', but Cullen is able to smuggle in our troops awaiting for my signal? Okeeey, if you say so.

And duke can bring his mercs with him all he likes too. Must be not 'watched' at all, because who is going to watch a dangerous rival? Not the Empress of Orlais, obviously. They'd rather 'watch' the Inquisitor climbing the trellis with a basket full of halla statues. Because that's what Inquisitors normally do, right? 

[correctamundo]

Inquisitor. Singular. Unique. ;-) But they are all probably very intrigued by what will come out of the climbing, they just don't want to wait too long.

[Heimerdinger]

No, the game actually gives you multiple ways to handle the situation. Gaspard rules alone, Celene rules alone, Celene rules with Briala, Briala rules through Gaspard, denounce one, denounce two, hold all in blackmail, save Celene, let her die, use the court to arrest Florianne, kill her.

 

Yes, you get 3 outcomes with some variations and decide who rules, but not multiple paths to get there. The DAO Landsmeet also gives you many outcomes but also different paths with many variations along the line.

 

- Preliminary quests to prepare and make your case, find evidence, talk to the nobles, do favors, rescue the queen and ally with her (or not) and so on.

- You can win the landsmeet with evidence and diplomacy, even gives you a nice bonus ability point.

- You can lose because you don't have evidence or picked wrong answers but it's still possible to complete the quest after the fight and raising some ruckus.

- You can lose on purpose, maybe traded the evidence and took Caladrius's deal, warden walks in and takes a swing at Loghain with no evidence, no queen support, you can even insult ferelden traditions by proposing your dog for the duel. You still complete the quest.Why? Because you are The Warden and not that scrubby looking dude who sells chewed gloves near Lake Calenhad.

 

And please don't tell me Ferelden is some backwater country because it's really not. They already defeated Orlais in the past. Orlais just thinks it's a backwater country. And the ferelden nobles are actually harder to win over because they value actual values like loyalty, honor, defending the nation. They don't care for masks and nonsense.

 

The Landsmeet is how you do RPG quests , WHWM is how you should not.

 

 

Except that makes no sense. The Empress's guards aren't going to let a third party with unknown motives (who by the by have been declared heretics) ''secure'' their ruler right under their nose. All you're doing is inviting the Orlesian nobility to crush you, while Florianne laughs in her cups. Hell, she could easily kill Celene in the chaos as the Inquisitor tries to show everyone who's boss and pin it on the Inquisition.

 

The Venatori infiltrated the palace with inside help, and even then there weren't that many of them. Certainly nowhere near enough to secure the palace, else they would just have overpowered Celene's guards, not tried an assassination.

 

The direct approach makes no sense and doesn't work. Just like trying to use diplomacy at Adamant doesn't work. You play along until you can show your hand. That's basic politics. Besides, you can insult everyone to your heart's content, so long as you are above 0 favor it's not that big a deal (albeit you get a worse ending slide). But if you think that the PC should be able to trample over everything and everyone consequence free because they're the PC I wonder why you even play an RPG.

 

It does make sense. The Inquisition is approached by factions all over Thedas for help. They are the Venatori/Demons/Mage problem police. You would be doing the reverse, offer to solve a problem for the Orlaisian Crown. Demons and Tevinter mages you say? The Crown would want the Inquisition running the show.

 

There are enough Venatori soldiers, spellbinders and demons to take the palace 3 times over. Good luck with that imperial guards. Just goes to show how ridiculous the plot is. Florianne and the venatori could just butcher everyone, what ass gets the throne? why does it matter for them? Just long live Coryphefuss. Coryphemus. Whatever.

 

And here's something that really doesn't make sense - the game over screen's short story. How did the agents of chaos instantly win? The venatori mages are strong, but they are not the full Tevinter army and the Inquisition can counter them with templars or mages of their own and the Herald owns rifts and demons in 5 min or so. Did the Inquisition decide to take a break and go do some slacking at Skyhold? What about the other allies, Fereldan Crown, Orzammar, warden treaties, Nevarran lords and even the Qunari who are smart enough to see Coryphepuss as a problem and propose an alliance.

 

Give me a single reason why there's no stealthy way. We can smuggle in our troops (and so does Gaspard, and so does Briala). we've got Leliana and Varric (possibly Cole and Sera too), why can't we have a diplomacy vs stealth scenario? Why can't we have a force approach option with an inq rep\level check? 

 

Well, because the power system is meaningless. My dang War Table tells me I have over 100 power, that's X100 times more than I had after securing the Hinterlands in the beginning. But it's just a pointless mechanic to force the player to grind in order to unlock more areas.

[Heimerdinger]

I feel like if my asked Sera to do that she'd break their neck.

 

She can take one for the team. We had Morrigan in chantry sister getup and Sten as a clown. Sera disguised as a servant girl is within accepted parameters.

[robertthebard]

Yes, you get 3 outcomes with some variations and decide who rules, but not multiple paths to get there. The DAO Landsmeet also gives you many outcomes but also different paths with many variations along the line.
 
- Preliminary quests to prepare and make your case, find evidence, talk to the nobles, do favors, rescue the queen and ally with her (or not) and so on.
- You can win the landsmeet with evidence and diplomacy, even gives you a nice bonus ability point.
- You can lose because you don't have evidence or picked wrong answers but it's still possible to complete the quest after the fight and raising some ruckus.
- You can lose on purpose, maybe traded the evidence and took Caladrius's deal, warden walks in and takes a swing at Loghain with no evidence, no queen support, you can even insult ferelden traditions by proposing your dog for the duel. You still complete the quest.Why? Because you are The Warden and not that scrubby looking dude who sells chewed gloves near Lake Calenhad.
 
And please don't tell me Ferelden is some backwater country because it's really not. They already defeated Orlais in the past. Orlais just think it;s a bacwater country. And the ferelden nobles are actually harder to win over because they value actual values like loyalty, honor, defending the nation. They don't care for masks and nonsense.
 
The Landsmeet is how you do RPG quests , WHWM is how you should not.

Did we play the same Landsmeet quest? Honor? Really? Try using Loghain's selling the elves to Tevinter, let me reiterate that last bit, I want to make sure you get it, TO TEVINTER. So, despite all the hubbub about the mages aligning with Tevinter in Inquisition, aligning with Tevinter shows loyalty to Ferelden, and honor? Their only interest is defending their piece of the pie, and even Eamon isn't innocent of that; he wants Alistair on the throne above all else not because he thinks Alistair would be a good king, but because "Therrin Blood". That's it. Alistair could be Sandhal, and Eamon would be "He must be King"...

[In Exile]

Yes, you get 3 outcomes with some variations and decide who rules, but not multiple paths to get there. The DAO Landsmeet also gives you many outcomes but also different paths with many variations along the line.

 

- Preliminary quests to prepare and make your case, find evidence, talk to the nobles, do favors, rescue the queen and ally with her (or not) and so on.

- You can win the landsmeet with evidence and diplomacy, even gives you a nice bonus ability point.

- You can lose because you don't have evidence or picked wrong answers but it's still possible to complete the quest after the fight and raising some ruckus.

- You can lose on purpose, maybe traded the evidence and took Caladrius's deal, warden walks in and takes a swing at Loghain with no evidence, no queen support, you can even insult ferelden traditions by proposing your dog for the duel. You still complete the quest.Why? Because you are The Warden and not that scrubby looking dude who sells chewed gloves near Lake Calenhad.

This is silly. This isn't a varied path. It's a corridor. You meet all of these characters and events during the same corridor run, using the same two gameplay mechanics you've always used: combat and dialogue. 

 

It's one thing to say that there are a lot of minor choices leading up to the Landsmeet. That's true. But it's still a corridor. 

[Heimerdinger]

Did we play the same Landsmeet quest? Honor? Really? Try using Loghain's selling the elves to Tevinter, let me reiterate that last bit, I want to make sure you get it, TO TEVINTER. So, despite all the hubbub about the mages aligning with Tevinter in Inquisition, aligning with Tevinter shows loyalty to Ferelden, and honor? Their only interest is defending their piece of the pie, and even Eamon isn't innocent of that; he wants Alistair on the throne above all else not because he thinks Alistair would be a good king, but because "Therrin Blood". That's it. Alistair could be Sandhal, and Eamon would be "He must be King"...

 

Apparently we didn't. The documents proving Loghain's slave trading operations are key evidence for convicting him. The nobles are outraged when they find out. Slavery is not well seen in Fereldan.

 

"Therin blood" - loyalty, Maric's son and all that.

[leaguer of one]

Yes, you get 3 outcomes with some variations and decide who rules, but not multiple paths to get there. The DAO Landsmeet also gives you many outcomes but also different paths with many variations along the line.

 

- Preliminary quests to prepare and make your case, find evidence, talk to the nobles, do favors, rescue the queen and ally with her (or not) and so on.

- You can win the landsmeet with evidence and diplomacy, even gives you a nice bonus ability point.

- You can lose because you don't have evidence or picked wrong answers but it's still possible to complete the quest after the fight and raising some ruckus.

- You can lose on purpose, maybe traded the evidence and took Caladrius's deal, warden walks in and takes a swing at Loghain with no evidence, no queen support, you can even insult ferelden traditions by proposing your dog for the duel. You still complete the quest.Why? Because you are The Warden and not that scrubby looking dude who sells chewed gloves near Lake Calenhad.

 

And please don't tell me Ferelden is some backwater country because it's really not. They already defeated Orlais in the past. Orlais just thinks it's a backwater country. And the ferelden nobles are actually harder to win over because they value actual values like loyalty, honor, defending the nation. They don't care for masks and nonsense.

 

The Landsmeet is how you do RPG quests , WHWM is how you should not.

 

 

 

It does make sense. The Inquisition is approached by factions all over Thedas for help. They are the Venatori/Demons/Mage problem police. You would be doing the reverse, offer to solve a problem for the Orlaisian Crown. Demons and Tevinter mages you say? The Crown would want the Inquisition running the show.

 

There are enough Venatori soldiers, spellbinders and demons to take the palace 3 times over. Good luck with that imperial guards. Just goes to show how ridiculous the plot is. Florianne and the venatori could just butcher everyone, what ass gets the throne? why does it matter for them? Just long live Coryphefuss. Coryphemus. Whatever.

 

And here's something that really doesn't make sense - the game over screen's short story. How did the agents of chaos instantly win? The venatori mages are strong, but they are not the full Tevinter army and the Inquisition can counter them with templars or mages of their own and the Herald owns rifts and demons in 5 min or so. Did the Inquisition decide to take a break and go do some slacking at Skyhold? What about the other allies, Fereldan Crown, Orzammar, warden treaties, Nevarran lords and even the Qunari who are smart enough to see Coryphepuss as a problem and propose an alliance.

 

 

Well, because the power system is meaningless. My dang War Table tells me I have over 100 power, that's X100 times more than I had after securing the Hinterlands in the beginning. But it's just a pointless mechanic to force the player to grind in order to unlock more areas.

1.Yes, Fereldin is a backward county. Denerum, the capital looks like a bunch scrapped together cabin. Every person not from fereldin in Dao make a point how back ward fereldin is. And what happen in the ball arn't 3 results with some variations. Each result have drastic changes to the fate of Orlais. Even in the Landsmeet you could not just rush in and force everyone to submit to you.

 

2. It's like the party planning is also in on the Assassination or something.

 

You not getting it. It matter not how many Venatori are there. That does not mean you can have your army come in. They has the very person who planned the ball as the inside guy. You have no one. No noble backing or trust. They will not let you bring you're army due to a lack of trust and your lack of influence. So stop using that as a point. it's not.

 

3. They win because the person planning the ball is the assassin. The powers at be are look at each other so much they don't see the kill coming.  And the templer and mage number are not great  anyway. They don't alone counter Cory's numbers being that you can only have the majority of the templers or(key note or) mages. Choice in games is not about letting you do anything you want , it's about having valid consequence and reactions to you actions.

[leaguer of one]

Apparently we didn't. The documents proving Loghain's slave trading operations are key evidence for convicting him. The nobles are outraged when they find out. Slavery is not well seen in Fereldan.

 

"Therin blood" - loyalty, Maric's son and all that.

You need to replay the landsmeet. My warden presented that evidence to the landsmeet and all the nobles glossed over it like it was nothing. Loghain actually was able to argue out of it. It made my city elf warden extra bitter because of it.

[In Exile]

With the evidence alone and nothing else I'm not sure you can win at the landsmeet.

[Heimerdinger]

They will not let you bring you're army due to a lack of trust and your lack of influence.

 

And bang. There's the problem."Influence". The Inquisition has influence and power but it's just numbers on the screen.

 

The game empowers your organization at the war table with power points, influence points, agents, treaties, and alliances and so on. Then it dumbs it down when you're actually out in the field.

 

In theory you have the power but the choice to use it is never given.

[leaguer of one]

And bang. There's the problem."Influence". The Inquisition has influence and power but it's just numbers on the screen.

 

The game empowers your organization at the war table with power points, influence points, agents, treaties, and alliances and so on. Then it dumbs it down when you're actually out in the field.

 

^this one goes to the OP

Influence is the way to move the plot not to do anything you want and have more options. That's based on what you do and how you do it and even then with in the sense of the lore and story.

 

And the quis does not have that with the Orlisian court.

[leaguer of one]

With the evidence alone and nothing else I'm not sure you can win at the landsmeet.

You can't. You can do everything else perfectly and you would lose the landsmeet and go to a brawl unless you have Anora's backing. If you don't have Anora's backing and you use that evidence you lose no matter what.

[leaguer of one]

We don't have 'an inside man', but Cullen is able to smuggle in our troops awaiting for my signal? Okeeey, if you say so.

And duke can bring his mercs with him all he likes too. Must be not 'watched' at all, because who is going to watch a dangerous rival? Not the Empress of Orlais, obviously. They'd rather 'watch' the Inquisitor climbing the trellis with a basket full of halla statues. Because that's what Inquisitors normally do, right? 

You have a limited about of people you can bring as guards like the other nobles. you can't bring an army and force things over. Sorry, try again.

[Eggpop]

You can't. You can do everything else perfectly and you would lose the landsmeet and go to a brawl unless you have Anora's backing. If you don't have Anora's backing and you use that evidence you lose no matter what.

 

You can win without Anora's backing. You just need to do gather all the necessary evidences, support via quests and pick the right options. And never question selling elves to slavery in Tevinter cos people don't give a shite about it xD

[Wulfram]

You need Anora's backing or the support of the Crows, I believe. I don't think you can do it just on evidence

[Heimerdinger]

You can't. You can do everything else perfectly and you would lose the landsmeet and go to a brawl unless you have Anora's backing. If you don't have Anora's backing and you use that evidence you lose no matter what.

 

Anora's support is worth 3 points and you need 5 points to win. It's possible to win without her if you get all other support and evidence and pick the right dialogue.

 

http://dragonage.wik...dsmeet_decision